Hamburgers

[jaybee]

I entertained a couple who eat only kosher meat last weekend. I bought a mix of five pounds of fresh ground chuck and one pound of fresh ground #2 cut brisket. These made about 20 patties which were grilled on charcoal. The results were spectacular burgers. Once again, the mix of brisket and chuck worked very well to add flavor, meatiness and moisture to the burger.

[tommy]

is this your usual ratio and choice of meat?

do you have thoughts on sirlion instead of brisket?

[Steve Plotnicki]

There is no such thing as kosher sirloin so that is why brisket was substituted. I've never had a good kosher burger. They always taste kosher. Maybe Jaybee has found the secret recipe. But I recently had a burger at Cafe Louis in Boston that was made solely from prime rib. That was pretty good, and that cut is kosher.

[Jason Perlow]

I entertained a couple who eat only kosher meat last weekend.  I bought a mix of five pounds of fresh ground chuck and one pound of fresh ground #2 cut brisket.  These made about 20 patties which were grilled on charcoal.  The results were spectacular burgers.  Once again, the mix of brisket and chuck worked very well to add flavor, meatiness and moisture to the burger.

How did you season this?

[Steve Plotnicki]

Kosher salt.

[Jason Perlow]

Kosher salt.

I might have to kill you.

[Steve Plotnicki]

Make sure you don't use a knife that touched traif. I like to keep things kosher between us.

[tommy]

There is no such thing as kosher sirloin so that is why brisket was substituted.

ah. i missed that bit. goy do i feel stupid.

seriously though, chuck and brisket can be kosher, but not sirlion?

[Jinmyo]

tommy, not that I know from kosher but there's a big nerve cluster backj where the sirloin is. Steve 1 knows all about it.

[LaNiña]

There is no such thing as kosher sirloin so that is why brisket was substituted.

ah. i missed that bit. goy do i feel stupid.

seriously though, chuck and brisket can be kosher, but not sirlion?

http://kosherkooking.com/What%20is/what_is_kosher.htm

Also:

"The meat and poultry must be further prepared by properly removing certain veins, arteries, prohibited fats, blood, and the sciatic nerve. In practical terms this means that only the front quarter cuts of red meat are generally used. "

It's not that sirloin isn't kosher. It's just difficult to remove the sciatic nerve, so those parts of the cow aren't usually used. But if the sciatic nerve is successfully removed, then it's fine.

[jaybee]

First, I had the butcher cut the chuck from steaks and grind it fresh, not the stuff in the tray. That was $9 a pound.

I have used a ratio of 1:4 and 1:5 brisket to chuck. I think the 1:4 produces better results.

I seasoned it with a mixture of five pepper blend and course sea salt on the patties before cooking. Often I'll mix the seasoning in to the meat when I make the patties, but not this time.

I bought the meat at Fisher Brothers Leslie, by the way, which some have said is the "lobels" of kosher butchers in NY. I wouldn't know.

[LaNiña]

First, I had the butcher cut the chuck from steaks and grind it fresh, not the stuff in the tray.  That was $9 a pound.

I have used a ratio of 1:4 and 1:5 brisket to chuck.  I think the 1:4 produces better results.

I seasoned it with a mixture of five pepper blend and course sea salt on the patties before cooking.  Often I'll mix the seasoning in to the meat when I make the patties, but not this time.

I bought the meat at Fisher Brothers Leslie, by the way, which some have said is the "lobels" of kosher butchers in NY.  I wouldn't know.

Fischer Bros. is fine, but they're getting their kosher meat from the same places every damn kosher butcher around here gets their meat. They just package it all purdy and have a clean shop.

[Steve Plotnicki]

"Fischer Bros. is fine, but they're getting their kosher meat from the same places every damn kosher butcher around here gets their meat."

Nina - While that might be the case, Fisher Bros. might get superior meat for other reasons. All of the best butcher shops and steakhouses go to the wholesalers every morning in person and choose shoulders and ribs themselves. That can make an enormous difference in quality. Imagine what kind of dreck the butcher can deliver to your home when you just call him on the phone. You do much better in person. Same principal here.

[LaNiña]

"Fischer Bros. is fine, but they're getting their kosher meat from the same places every damn kosher butcher around here gets their meat."

Nina - While that might be the case, Fisher Bros. might get superior meat for other reasons. All of the best butcher shops and steakhouses go to the wholesalers every morning in person and choose shoulders and ribs themselves. That can make an enormous difference in quality. Imagine what kind of dreck the butcher can deliver to your home when you just call him on the phone. You do much better in person. Same principal here.

True, true. But I've bought some excellent kosher meat in the grungiest looking butcher shops in Boro Park...proves your point. It's the skill of the "picker"

[Steve Plotnicki]

Or like my father used to do when he got too old to go to the market at 4:30 in the morning. He would pay off his salesman at the wholesaler every week to make sure he got good meat. You didn't realize that there was a schmear in fleishichs di you?

[LaNiña]

Or like my father used to do when he got too old to go to the market at 4:30 in the morning. He would pay off his salesman at the wholesaler every week to make sure he got good meat. You didn't realize that there was a schmear in fleishichs di you?

Az iz a yid, s'iz a shmear.

[Fat Guy]

Next time someone goes into a kosher busher shop, ask them what it would take to get them to remove the sciatic nerve from a hindquarter. I can't believe there isn't a potential market for kosher porterhouses and such. If someone would try it, I bet a ton could be sold at an exorbitant price. I wonder how hard it really is to get that nerve out. Maybe it's really hard, or maybe it's just a bunch of whining like how every deli in New York except Katz's thinks it's so hard to hand-slice pastrami. Yeah, like that takes great skill. They remove the sciatic nerve all the time in Israel. What's so special about them that we can't do it in New York? We've got more Jews, more butchers, more money . . . what's the deal?

[tommy]

and please remove my sciatic nerve, as i find it is more and more annoying as i get older.

[LaNiña]

Next time someone goes into a kosher busher shop, ask them what it would take to get them to remove the sciatic nerve from a hindquarter. I can't believe there isn't a potential market for kosher porterhouses and such. If someone would try it, I bet a ton could be sold at an exorbitant price. I wonder how hard it really is to get that nerve out. Maybe it's really hard, or maybe it's just a bunch of whining like how every deli in New York except Katz's thinks it's so hard to hand-slice pastrami. Yeah, like that takes great skill. They remove the sciatic nerve all the time in Israel. What's so special about them that we can't do it in New York? We've got more Jews, more butchers, more money . . . what's the deal?

I think it would have to happen at the slaughterhouse level, not at the kosher butcher. But maybe a kosher butcher would know why it doesn't happen.

[Steve Plotnicki]

These are just guesses but it's possible that the issue has to do with rabbinical supervision and the cost related to it. For sciatic nerve removal, if a rabbi needs to be present during the burchering process there is a significant cost attached. But they only have to be present for the slaughter of the animal if only the shoulder and up is what gets sold as kosher. Another possibility is that rabbinical boards in this country made a deliberate decision to not to approve certain cuts as a way to keep Jews from assimilating. It's the no driving on Sabbath logic.

[LaNiña]

These are just guesses but it's possible that the issue has to do with rabbinical supervision and the cost related to it. For sciatic nerve removal, if a rabbi needs to be present during the burchering process there is a significant cost attached. But they only have to be present for the slaughter of the animal if only the shoulder and up is what gets sold as kosher. Another possibility is that rabbinical boards in this country made a deliberate decision to not to approve certain cuts as a way to keep Jews from assimilating. It's the no driving on Sabbath logic.

SP, sorry to contradict, but a rabbi doesn't have to be present during the slaughter. A shochet needs to be certified. A rabbinical authority must certify the slaughterhouse, but a rabbi doesn't have to be present at all times - a mashgiach is the person who has to be present.

And it's not about rabbinical board in this country. The original laws of kashrut mention the sciatic nerve. Has nothing to do with the US. I believe it's a matter of money. It's difficult and time-consuming to remove it, therefore the kosher slaughterhouses would rather not remove it, and sell those therefore unkosher parts to other meat distributors. It's just easier for them, and more cost-effective.

[Steve Plotnicki]

That makes no sense because the Jewish community is wealthy and they can pay the uptick to get kosher sirloins. Like anything else, the issue is demand and there is no demand for it in the U.S. And the reason for that is cultural, nobody knows you can do it. That misconception can only be perpetuated by rabbis and the rabbinical councils would be the culprit there. So the issue comes down to cost at the slaughterhouse/wholesale level (and I was using rabbi as a generic term for all persons needed to certify something kosher), or the rabbis having a vested interest in not explaining it to their congregations.

[jaybee]

Maybe we need a "Lobelsky's" to sell outrageously priced kosher meat to rich Jews.

[Fat Guy]

Plotnicki, I would like to build a bridge between you and the Orthodox Jewish community. A shiny bridge of friendship. Please take the first step across this bridge by not accusing the Orthodox Jewish community of being cynical and conspiratorial every time anybody on the site mentions kosher food. How would you feel if a gentile poster attacked the Orthodox Jewish community with the level of relentlessness that you exhibit in these matters? Am I making any sense? If not, well, I'll just try to go build some other bridge somewhere else.

[Orik]

They remove the sciatic nerve all the time in Israel. What's so special about them that we can't do it in New York? We've got more Jews, more butchers, more money . . . what's the deal?

They don't do it as often as they used to. Most of the prime cuts (especially from the Charolais beef they raise there now) are sold as non kosher as the market for 'punctured' porterhouse is not that significant (people who eat glatt kosher won't eat it anyway). Although I'm tempted to agree with Steve, I imagine it's a purely economic issue as Nina suggested.