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Posts posted by FoodZealot
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I'm interested in tagging along. If we're talking about LA/Koreatown, I've been wanting to check out Chol Sum Golbi and Soot Bull Jeep. I'm willing to travel, though, so let me know what place you guys decide on.
~Tad
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Thanks everyone for the dialectic. It's very helpful.
The barbeque community has some pretty strong parallels to the local food of Hawaii, coming from humble, working class people. The price points are definitely skewed low (or value driven, if you prefer). If you're looking to have 2 authentic, small, pork sandwiches, a bit of coleslaw and sweet tea in North Carolina for under $4, with table service, it is very possible.
I guess my own experience is colored somewhat because I'm looking for the full experience, and so I ALWAYS get the 3-4 meat sampler platter, or order 2 entrees and all the sides. [grin]
On the other hand, I don't think that a more expensive version of a humble food is automatically for posers - not that SK does either. It cuts both ways. Quite a few of those legendary bbq joints are a ripoff at any price, in my humble opinion. But more to the point, there are chains and multi-location family owned places that do well in the South in "nicer" neighborhoods, sanitary conditions and offer pretty good food. Whether it's as good in food quality and dining experience as the special, unknown shack is arguable, or even I'll even grant less likely. But they do survive quite nicely at 2 or 3 times the menu price of the obscure shacks. Might also be related to the discussion of steakhouses.
But Caroline's comments ring true. It's probably simple geography - otherness. A restaurant targeting $15-20 local food would probably have a better chance in LA than in Hawaii, because it's considered exotic in LA (it would probably have to be away from Gardena, too), and either superfluous or "too big for it's britches" in Hawaii. And I suspect that in the home region of the food, people who can do a good if not better job at home, do exactly that, whether Mexico, Hawaii, Texas or France. It follows that many, many restaurants have made national or international reputations based on dressed up peasant food - but from other places.
I haven't thought this through yet, but I'm sure we can all think of cuisines where the locals seem to frequent restaurants - Japan and Spain come to mind - what do you make of these? Is this perception wrong? Some other cultural forces there?
~Tad
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Suvir,
I wish you much success in all your endeavors. We have not had much direct interaction, but please know that I have learned much from your expertise, good taste and thoughtful writing. Amma will be on my list to visit the next time I'm in the area.
~Tad
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I dunno if I'm left out of the saimin phenomenon because I grew up on the Big Island, or if it's because I'm not really a hot soup fan (hot blooded), but I can't think of a place we went to for saimin. I'm sure there are places that serve it, but it wasn't a staple.
Once in a while, we used to make a similar thing at home, but with those vacuum packed udon noodles, and sometimes homemade pork stock. Ono! Usual toppings were: char siu, an egg (either poached in the broth or scrambled like eggdrop soup), green onions, kim chee with some of the kim chee juice, and either kamaboko or slices of those fried surimi patties with gobo.
~Tad
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Thanks for your kind comments, skchai. In return, I very much appreciate your efforts in creating the digest and taking the initiative in starting topics!
You make some very good points here. I'm a big fan of family style eating.
I think another tactic that could possibly work is simplicity - in the sense of Jean-Georges Vongerichten or Daniel Bouloud - where it might have only a few components, but they're absolutely and profoundly right. Perfectly conceived, perfectly chosen, perfectly cooked, yet ultimately very simple. To me, this is the opposite of the usual high-end strategy of going for ornate, fussy, and exotic-for-the-sake-of-being-exotic.
[rant]
Let's take an example like a Hawaiian Lau Lau plate. Lau lau is taro leaf wrapped around pork butt, sometimes with a lump of salted butterfish, and steamed. Sides include lomi lomi salmon (tomato and onion "salad" with salted salmon), poi, rice, sometimes a little kalua pig. When I get this at restaurants, while often the most expensive item at $8-10, it's usually unsatisfying because I feel that I'm being cheated when the portions are small, they skimp on the salmon in the lomi, or one or more of the items aren't cooked properly. There are no big technical hurdles in preparing these items. I'm certainly not advocating making it into Medallions of Corn Fed Pork Tenderloin and Sauteed Calaloo, with Salmon Tartare and Roasted Malanga Puree (although that doesn't sound too bad).
What I'm saying is make it right, then charge a reasonable amount for it. Call it the Ultimate Hawaiian Plate. Same cooking methods, but invest some thought and pride in the result. There's little cost involved in seasoning with the right amount of salt. There's almost no difference in steaming for 1 hour versus 45 minutes. I really believe that if it was even approaching your grandmother's neighbor's lau lau that you ate only once when you were 9 years old, people will pay the $16 or $20 for it (in the right setting). Just like people go to bbq joints looking for those ribs from their memories and pay $20 for a rack of ribs and some beans and white bread.
Or maybe I'm way off base. Maybe it already exists and I haven't found it. Maybe everybody has hypertension and complains about the salt. Maybe the economics of mean that it has to be $40, not $20, and you'd be pricing yourself out of the market. [/rant]
Any Hawaii restauranteurs out there care to comment?
~Tad
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I'm sorry, would someone explain the process of making kuri gohan? Is it a hassle because of peeling the chestnuts first? Are the chesnuts roasted or somehow cooked first, or put in raw with the rice? I've only recently been exposed to the fire-roasted chestnuts, and I find the smell a bit unappetizing. The actual chestnuts are good. Thank you.
Bakerkel (also on eGullet) let me taste some of her matsutake gohan yesterday. Very good! I also like sekihan with gomashio. Our family didn't really make takikomi gohan as such - similar ingredients, but assembled afterward, rather than being cooked together.
~Tad
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Its just started raining in Bombay (though maybe not full monsoon yet) and the veggies in the market are looking fresh and cheerful. There were these big bunches of spring onions with long, bright green shoots on top. This is always tempts me into cooking them with chickpea flour, a standard Gujarati technique that can be used with all sorts of leafy veggies, or green peppers, but I like it best with spring onions.
I roasted some chickpea flour till it smelled 'cooked', sieved it with turmeric, coriander-cumin powder and red chilli powder, and then added a little oil to make it into very fine breadcrumb texture. Sliced the onion bulbs and sauteed them with a couple of chopped up green chillies and then when they were soft, added the chopped green sping onion tops. When they were wilted, added some salt and then the chickpea flour mixture and cooked it till dry. The aim is to get the wilted green and onions surrounded by golden grains of the chickpea flour mixture.
This is allium lovers bliss, eaten with slices of seven grain bread and listening to the rain fall,
Vikram
Just ran across this in the Dinner thread, and thought it might be appreciated here.
~Tad
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(2) Why is there such a big gulf between everday (e.g. plate lunch) cuisine and high-end (e.g. HRC) dining? Granted, a gap exists in every cuisine, but seems particular large in Hawai`I. What's the prospect for some that would help bridge this gap?
In my humble opinion, I think the gulf is mostly the result of the 80:20 rule - in this case, that making something that satisfies 80% of people is relatively easy, while making something better beyond that is quite difficult. In this case, difficult to market, rather than difficult to actually cook.
For the sake of discussion, let's say plate lunch is the 80%, and the high end, haute cuisine is ...90-96% (like an A minus or A in school). To hit something in the middle, say 85-90%, requires substantially more effort than making a plate lunch, but you can't charge as much for the disproportionate increase in time, labor, quality of ingredients, more trimming (waste).
I think once someone figures this segment out, it's possible to be quite successful. The middle range restaurants that skchai and others mentioned are predominantly ethnic - which is fantastic - part of the larger trend toward authentic regional food. But depending on where you're from, you might have some damn fine regional Thai food, or regional Chinese food or regional what-have-you. As a foodie, I'm interested in the unique food of a destination, or at least the unique local interpretation of ethnic foods. I think there are locals and travelers on a budget that are interested in that, too, not just those that will spend $100/person for a tasting menu and consider that to be a pretty good value. Even though local food itself is a intermingling of various cuisines, I believe it has it has developed its own aesthetic, and should be able to carve a niche.
Another factor is that stakes are pretty high in the modern restaurant business (in Hawaii, I'm guessing skilled labor and rent to be driving costs up), and it forces owners and investors to look at them as a business that has to offer return in a relatively short period of time, rather than something that can evolve over a period of time, find it's audience, and figure out the specifics of its niche. I think regardless of the experience of the chef/owner/investors, if a restaurant doesn't have to be an out of the gate winner, with unanimously good word of mouth, glowing reviews, positive cashflow, etc., it would have a better shot at long term viability.
Anybody got a few hundred grand lying around for an experiment?
~Tad
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What exactly is in the overseas versions of tempura sushi anyway?
Usually, when ordering a shrimp tempura roll or soft shell crab roll, it is at a sushi bar or restaurant, rather than a market or pre-made kind of situation. I don't think I've ever seen it as a handroll, it's usually cut maki. The tempura item is made fresh, and is still warm, not but not blazing hot. Probably half the time it is made inside out, with masago and sesame outside. For shrimp tempura roll, the tails are left sticking out for presentation; for SSC, it's kept whole, and the legs stick out of the end pieces of the maki. The diameter of soft shell crab rolls is much larger, so it is often difficult to eat a slice in one bite.
Commons ingredients are kaiware sprouts, and the skinny, crunchy baby carrot pickles. Sometimes a thinned mayonaise type sauce or sweet sauce (like for unagi) for garnish. As I type more of this description, it sounds less and less Japanese. Still, pretty tasty if you don't mind being untraditional.
~Tad
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Sorry in advance if these are silly questions, but torakris' question above raised: are tempura items (shrimp tempura, soft shell crabs) inside of sushi rolls a recent invention? Are rolls like this even available in Japan, whether traditional or nouveau?
Also, are soft shell crabs traditionally eaten in Japan in any form? I believe that Chesapeake blue (or possibly SE Asian?) crabs are what are commonly available, which leads me to guess that the spider roll is an American invention. But Japan has many crabs, and it seems that it might be very Japanese to eat a just-moulted crab seasonally as a great delicacy.
Thanks.
~Tad
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Klink and Batgrrrl,
I deeply sympathize. I once visited a friend in Ashland, OR and he proudly took me to the local Chinese place that was similarly ungood, and had a long tradition of being so. Specialty of the house was a mountain of egg fu yung just as you describe it, looked to be about 15 eggs worth, complete with gloppy brown gravy. Turned me off for life, I think. Overall, it would be pretty glum without decent Chinese food.
Maybe if you find a place that's receptive and has some potential, you could try to convince them that you want it the way they'd prepare it for themselves. Like for their staff meal, or whatever. Or maybe arrange a dinner ahead of time for 6 or 8 that has your dream menu? They might want to share their authentic food. Unfortunately, I recently heard a famous chef say that it's easier to open a new restaurant than to change the menu at a popular place. Sounds like most are pretty reluctant already.
Probably your best bet in the long run, as trillium suggests, is to learn to cook it yourselves. Seems like it wouldn't be that hard, considering the skills and determination required for the sausage treatise and your other exploits. I'll even volunteer to ship you ingredients you can't get out there, if need be.
~Tad
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Charcoop, I read your other thread, and given what restaurants you seem to be interested in, here are a few places to consider in the general area you have outlined. If your friends live in town, they'll probably be able to refine your eventual list.
FWIW, I have been to and have enjoyed
Campanile - superior
Patina - somewhat more of a classic emphasis, but really nice
Grace - hot spot status, but really delicious, ambitious food. disclaimer: I have a Neal Fraser bias.
I have not been to, but am guessing they are what you are interested in
Sona
Lucques
Bastide
AOC - more of an enoteca - less formal
Good luck. I'd be interested in hearing your comments after your trip.
~Tad
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I'm not familiar with the fine dining, as I'm usually visiting family. Also, I'm only there once a year these days. As TOTony warns, it can be hit or miss. But FWIW, my mentions (with duplicates):
- Hilo side (East)
Volcano House - incredible setting and history. no idea what the food is like currently. try to be there around sunset, sit around the fireplace afterwards.
Seaside Restaurant - simple preparations - some fish comes from on-site fishponds.
Cafe 100 - claims to be the home of the loco moco, with many variations. basic plate lunch stuff.
Kay's Lunch Shoppe - family restaurant version of local food
Itsu's - actually a bait and tackle shop. There might be better ice shave (Big Island vernacular) around, but this is the one I grew up eating
Nihon - Roy serves some beautifully fresh fish at the sushi bar.
KTA - locally owned supermarket, several locations - you could check out a variety of pokes (several flavors of ahi, probably also marlin, tako, calamari, etc) and get some omiyage here - taro chips, cookies, mac nuts, middle-grade coffee blends
Big Island Candies - IMHO, a little overpriced and overrated, but attractively packaged and tasty gifts for your peeps at home
blatant plug: visit my folks at their
elsewhere
Sam Choy's in Kaloko Industrial Park - Kona
Tex Drive Inn - Honokaa
Kamuela Drive Inn - Kamuela (Waimea)
Merriman's - only been there once, several years ago, but it was enjoyable
Cook's Discoveries - carefully selected, quality gifts and souvenirs. Look for pikake soap & such. Kamuela~Tad
- Hilo side (East)
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Maybe this should be a separate thread...what are some food-related businesses missing from Hawaii?
Kimo,
I've been thinking about your situation. I'm removed from the market, but FWIW, I'd guess the most viable ideas you have are a dessert emphasis restaurant, a medium-priced Alan Wong's type restaurant, a family-friendly restaurant (depends on a lot of factors), and a Trader Joe's type market. I think the customer's concept of value is a governing factor. Word of mouth is pretty powerful there, so you'd want to factor that in.
Tapas/small plates could be really cool, but the pricing issue is tricky, due to aforementioned ...err... thriftyness.
I also would add that I think Trader Joe's and Whole Foods are well run businesses, and would be formidable competitors, should they ever try to establish themselves there. See Wal-Mart.
Back to the food: rainbow jello.
~Tad
edit: added FWIW
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I went to my favorite Korean market and remembered the discussion of Korean sesame oil seasoned nori. On top of that, there was a woman handing out samples, and I got a bunch. As billed, it's delicious and crispy, too. Thanks, everyone.
BTW, when toasting nori, I suggest that you take care to not burn it, as it causes a peculiar and, to me, unappetizing smell - kinda smells like burnt hair.
~Tad
edit: used incorrect definition of an eGullet moment
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I like furikake occasionally. Putting it on tofu sounds great, tissue.
This may seem a bit odd, but in Hawaii, people would sneak furikake into movie theaters to put on their popcorn - often with "butter topping" already on it. I believe it is now available from the concession stand like this in some places. Arare (rice crackers), norimaki and other items have always been available as snacks at theater, so people also concoct their own custom popcorn. Sometimes including li hing mui, M&M's, gummi worms, etc.
Another big craze in Hawaii (or seemed to be when I was there last year) is coating salmon with furikake, roasting it and serving it with wasabi mayo.
~Tad
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You can generally tell if people are complimenting your cooking out of courtesy or genuine delight. The ones who are delighted usually appreciate some story telling and/or swapping of recipe hints. For the others a simple thank you and smile will suffice.
Great topic, Ian.
I agree with how NHCG put this. Like a few other people, it's taken me a long time to get comfortable with NOT apologizing and just smiling and saying thank you. I tend to be my own harshest critic, but I try to be gracious no matter what I thought of it. If people are really interested, I'll elaborate on the concept, the technique, the ingredients or whatever - little details that might let them enjoy the meal even more.
A handful of times, when it's been a grand slam home run of a meal, amongst the closest of friends, there hasn't been much talking - maybe someone will exclaim "Oh, come on!!" and I'll respond with "Yup," a smile, a shake of the head and a clink of the glasses... or rarest of all, a giggle of glee. Dammit, I love food.
~Tad
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I agree, many things in Hawaii emphasize the sweet. Many times, they're waaaay too sweet, and in things that don't make sense, either, IMHO.
In case you haven't seen it yet, there's are some relevant and thorough reviews, pictures and comments by jeffj in this thread. Both street food and high end.
~Tad
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Hello, Mr. Lobel. I have enjoyed your company's fine products on a few occasions, I also have the Prime Time cookbook, and I have learned much from your appearances on various TV shows.
I notice that your website offers kurobuta, a highly prized Japanese pork with a reputation comparable to Wagyu (Kobe-style) beef. I for one, am anxious to try some, but I'm wondering how it's being received by your customers? I've heard it said that pork continues to be a popular menu item in restaurants, while having declined in people's stated favorites (or was it grocery purchases). Would you say that there was an unmet interest and demand for premium pork first, or did the supply become available first? Any indication it might grow beyond a niche and influence the pork we see in supermarkets? Any other comments about pork from your vantage point?
Thank you very much.
~Tad
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SethG,
props to you for taking on this project! I did a similar reception last year for about 65. We had the advantage of having lots of room to grill and prep, and lots of hands to help, but I really think you can pull off some great stuff in this kind of situation. Even some things that a caterer would have a hard time doing. Keep it personal - inside jokes, favorites of the bride and groom, etc.
One of the things I thought about a lot was impact. How can I take things that will be reasonable to cook for this many, but give them an extra boost or twist that will make them out of the ordinary? And as far as budget, what luxury ingredients can I buy that will make the extra difference?
A big part of that, I believe, is having a menu, and what things are called on the menu. It will help you plan, but also give you an idea of what context you are giving the guests. I suggest that you put it out with the food, since it is unlikely that you will be have the time to explain what each thing is - printed on nice paper, etc. (although you and the couple can decide if you feel it is appropriate to display it for guests). For instance, you could call it Leek Tart with Baby Green Salad, but you could also legitimately call it Carmelized Leek and Fresh Thyme Tart, with Spicy Pecan, Mesclun, and Coach Goat Cheese salad, with Champagne Vinaigrette (just an example). Not to show off, but to convey that you've spent a lot of time creating a special meal for a special event. And you can tune it to the level that will be appreciated. In my case, I actually used simpler names of dishes to avoid intimidating the guests, then gave a few more details in the description.
Another thing that helps in this regard is some simple substitutions. Where it makes sense, instead of round onions, use shallots. Instead of green onions, use chives. Instead of buying garlic bread, make your own roasted garlic/roasted red bell pepper/pecorino butter and put it on your favorite bakery's bread. You can do it ahead of time, at it adds quite a bit.
As far as the main course, again I would try to think about what would be out of the ordinary at a homegrown function. Maybe it takes a little technique, so wouldn't be made by the average person. I'm not sure what you're comfortable with, but just to expand on what mixmaster b and others have said, I like the beef tenderloin for a group, but instead of roasting it, then slicing it and serving your sides, maybe you could stuff the whole tenderloin with mushrooms, fresh breadcrumbs, herbs, currants and pine nuts, then tie it and roast it. You can think of it as putting your side dishes inside the meat. It also looks good on the plate.
You could do the same with a whole pork loin (not a tenderloin, but the eye of a pork chop), but that requires a bit more handling and more precise timing. A butterflied leg of lamb could be handled the same way, and you'd probably only need two small ones.
Another thing I did was grill a few trimmed sides of salmon, at the very last minute. I think if all the other menu items can hold well, you can attempt one thing that takes your undivided attention at the last minute. Like a showpiece.
IMHO, another place to splurge is sauce. People like sauces and gravies, but don't usually make anything beyond a pan sauce at home. So it's easy to impress by having a sauce for each item or using store bought demi-glace or reduce a decent bottle of wine or salt packed capers or an exotic ingredient like saffron or sour cherry. You could spend $5 or $10 for demi-glace, and it will catapult the whole meal for all 30 people to a different level.
Just a general point - if you're cooking ahead, remember that warming something up in an oven takes almost as long to heat as it did to cook it in the first place, so give yourself enough time. Definitely get an instant read thermometer or digital thermometer with a probe - takes all the guesswork out of it.
For a bit of flash, edible flowers go a long way, but may not be your style or theirs. Oops, I've taken so long to write this that some other great points have been made. Hope that helps more than confuses.
~Tad
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I don't know the area, but you pick the place, and I'll be there.
~Tad
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Sorry, tissue - I was trying to read up on Yunan, but the books I had only referenced the Sichuan area, so I had Sichuan on the brain last night and this morning. And, I usually grab a to-go menu, but forgot. Thanks for the correction. "Yunan Cross the Bridge Noodle Soup" sounds like it would have a great story behind the name.
~Tad
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Word. Thanks for showing up, everybody! Sorry, no pictures, but if memory serves (please correct me) we had:
Sichuan Rice Noodle Soup
Hot Pot Chicken
Spicy Twice Cooked Pork
Sizzling Squid with Black Pepper and Chilis
Shrimp in Sweet Garlic Sauce
Sauteed Snow Pea Shoots
~Tad
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In addition to the fat from meats as mentioned, it could also be from another technique (shown recently in a Food TV profile of Patsy's in NY). I believe it's midway through the cooking of the sauce, minced garlic fried in olive oil is added, as well as adding a good shot of olive oil near the end for the raw olive oil flavor.
~Tad
Korean BBQ anyone?
in California: Dining
Posted · Edited by FoodZealot (log)
Hey, all-
The date for dim sum is still to be confirmed, but I think it will happen.
I would support a regular dining expedition. November and December get diffcult because of the holidays, but maybe we can pick a regular day, like the 2nd Sunday of the month or something.
And joler, check out this Korean BBQ thread with pictures. Basically, most Korean BBQ places have a grill at each table, and the customers cook the pre-marinated food themselves, along with a variety of pickles, kim chee, and steamed rice as the staple. Personally, I love kal bi - beef shortribs.
jschyun, since you started this thread - do you know of a Korean BBQ place that you wanted to suggest?
~Tad