slkinsey
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Posts posted by slkinsey
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I have twice experienced elderly Italian men (a waiter when it happened to me, a tourist at the next table when it happened to my dining companion) come over, forcibly remove fork from hand and demonstrate proper way of twirling spaghetti onto spoon. That, however, did not seem rude.
This is especially interesting as I have never known a single Italian Italian to use this technique. Indeed, my mother tells a story of the exact opposite thing happening to her when she was living in Italy during the early 50s (i.e., one of the locals telling her that she should not be using a spoon).
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Very, very, very cool of you to do this, Dave! And, of course, it is reassuring to see our predictions confirmed by your experiment.
However (and maybe we can turn this thread back to its original intent), I can see how much sense it makes for confit, especially if you have a FoodSaver, or some other way to create minimally-sized, liquid-tight pouches. Although I am still dubious of the temperature (for safety reasons), I don't see why this wouldn't be an acceptable, possibly superior, way to confit duck legs with a minimum of fat, at say 160F. But then, maybe we already knew that?Other than making the confit technique possible with a much smaller amount of extra fat, I don't see how it offers much of an advantage over the regular way. Seems like more trouble really. And I would think that most people interested in making duck confit at home would be able to accumulate enough extra duck fat to make this technique superfluous with relatively little difficulty and a little forethought. I always cut out and render down the extra fat from poultry before roasting and save it in the freezer. My friends may think it's strange that I have 4 jars of fat in the freezer (goose, duck, chicken, bacon, lard) -- but maybe they're not real friends.
I mean, I can always think of something to do with rendered animal fat.Anyway... getting back on track... The one advantage doing it in cryovac/FoodSaver it does seem to offer is that each duck leg would be in its own individual confit container you could just throw in the fridge. That would certainly make it easier than digging a leg out of a crock when you wanted to just have one. Doing it with plastic wrap doesn't seem worth it.
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Oh man, look at that one. It looks deliiiiiiiiiiiiiicious!
Sorry... couldn't help it.
Like bourdain said on his recent episode in Bangkok - "Look at the cute fishy. Let's eat it!"
I think we have come up with the motto of a true eGulleteer.
Heh... it was a South Park quote.
While the other kids are shocked that the "cute baby cows" are turned into veal, Cartman offers his own thoughts on the matter.
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Of course, for those of you who are not from the region with the highest per capita ice cream consumption in America, we're talking about frappes and not milkshakes
That would be Alaska.
Everything I have ever read says that New England has the highest per capita ice cream consumption in the US.
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Just to add another data point, I did the following calculation. My assumption was that the volume would not change at all (i.e., that the package would not bulge), which would not be the case in real practice.
Before heating
Volume 1: 1 liter
Temperature 1: 277 kelvin (39F)
Pressure 1: 1 atmosphere
After heating
Volume 2: 1 liter
Temperature 2: 330 kelvin (134F)
Calculated Pressure 2: 1.19 atmospheres
As we can see, the pressure increased by 19%.
For the calculations, I relied on The Combined Gas Law Calculator.
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But again, you're not answering my question.
I guess you will have to either perform the exercise for yourself or wait to watch me do it.
Inventolux, what I think people are having a problem with is that you are making a lot of claims that seem to fly in the face of science, and you refuse to offer any sound support whatsoever other than your own opinion and "you'll just have to wait to watch me do it." This kind of argument simply does not hold water.
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Multiple layers of plastic wrap. (6) Then you tie it like a roast. It will build a lot of pressure depending of the temperature of the air that gets trapped inside the pouch. If you indeed have already done this experiment,(and I find that remarkable if you have already used this exact technique) then you would see my point.
I did it that way before I had the capability to cryovac. Didn't seem like rocket science to try doing it that way. I have also done it with heavy-duty ziplock bags with the air sucked out of them.
What I think you don't quite understand is that the expanding of the plastic from the air does not necessarily mean that there is significant pressure being built up inside the plastic. Take this example: Put piece of chicken inside a balloon. Blow the balloon up with air. The balloon expands. Do you think that the chicken inside the inflated balloon is under significantly greater pressure than it was under previously? This is to say, do you thinkthe air pressure inside the balloon is significantly greater than the air pressure outside the balloon? Hint: Google for Boyle's Law.
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Considering my "football example" above, the water on my scalp would be making a phase shift from a liquid to a gas state via sublimation. And the temperature of that steam would be <100C/212F.
This is where we're breaking down, I think.
It doesn't make a "phase shift" from liquid to gas, it just looks like it did!!
What's really happening is that extremely tiny (2-20 micron) water droplets are binding with molecules in the air creating a haze. It's not any more "steam" than that cloud floating overhead (weather permitting).
Right. Sorry about that. Upon further thought, in this particular case it would be evaporation followed by condensation.
It still strikes me, however, that "steam" is nothing more than water gas in a visible form. I gather that there can be other understandings of this word in various fields, but I can't find any general purpose scientific definition that makes a temperature greater than 100C necessary.
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And I'm still wondering about the texture. Anybody know at what temperature chicken breast protein coagulates?
I have done this with a significantly warmer water bath (say 150F) and finished the breasts under the broiler to crisp the skin. Even then, the texture was a little mushy and undercooked-seeming for that kind of bird (have done chicken and also guinea fowl). Now, on the other hand, darker-fleshed poultry (squab, etc.) might be okay cooked to a lower temperature. Chicken? No thanks.
One of McGee's books probably has the temperature for chicken protein.
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When we're talking about the science of cooking, however, we're talking about science. Definitions need to be more precise than than the popular usage. In that universe, steam has an extremely simple definition, and it's as described before.
It's not clear to me that your definition is necessarily a general-purpose scientific one. Especially given the following:
Steam is produced by the transformation of water from liquid to gaseous state. At sea level, this only happens at 212F/100C.The second part of your definition would seem to be contradicted by the first part when one considers the phenomenon of sublimation. Considering my "football example" above, the water on my scalp would be making a phase shift from a liquid to a gas state via sublimation. And the temperature of that steam would be <100C/212F.
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When you cryovac, you remove a lot of air. Thats less air to heat up and expand. When you simply wrap things in plastic wrap, you trap in more air and are heating up a larger air mass. Like a hot air balloon.
Wait? You're saying you do this in plastic wrap?! Dude, there's no way that builds up any pressure. And yes, I've done that before! I don't care how much string you tie around the package, there is no way any pressure builds up. I mean, how strong do you think the plastic wrap is? Does it not occur to you that any significant internal pressure would easily burst multiple layers of plastic wrap? For that matter, you could wrap the whole package in duct tape, and any significant internal pressure would burst that too.
(My apoligies if I am misunderstanding your technique and use of materials.)
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Sam,
Explain the cocoa steam bath to inventolux so we can move on.
That's where one cooks in the steam created by the application of my hot naked body to a mixture of aged spring water and dutch process cocoa. Delicious, if a little sweaty.
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The chicken is cold when it goes into the pouch, as you heat the pouch the pressure builds inside the bag. The kitchen string holds the bag together so it doesnt explode. There is the appreciable pressure.
I have a hard time believing that any significant pressure is created this way. There is no way that bag isn't going to swell and reduce the pressure. Even if you took the sealed bag, poured concrete around it, allowed the concrete to harden and then raised the whole thing to 135F, I still think the pressure created by the expasion of the duck leg, etc. would be insignificant.
You have to try it and see it to believe it.
Dude... I've cryovac-ed things and cooked them in a water bath before... and I still don't think it builds up much pressure inside the bag.
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According to my reading of this, the visible vapor rising from a hot faucet is, indeed, "steam" -- as is the breath that comes our of your mouth at cold temperatures.
Your faucet must be like mine.
I'm sure it is. And I am also sure that the steam coming off of our faucet water is not one bit hotter than the water (and within fractions of a second is actually cooler).
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The chicken is cold when it goes into the pouch, as you heat the pouch the pressure builds inside the bag. The kitchen string holds the bag together so it doesnt explode. There is the appreciable pressure.
I have a hard time believing that any significant pressure is created this way. There is no way that bag isn't going to swell and reduce the pressure. Even if you took the sealed bag, poured concrete around it, allowed the concrete to harden and then raised the whole thing to 135F, I still think the pressure created by the expasion of the duck leg, etc. would be insignificant.
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There may be better, more scientific definitions of steam (which I would welcome). Until such time as that definition is offered, this entry from the Merriam-Webster Online Dictionary may be of some use.
Main Entry: steamPronunciation: 'stEm
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English stem, from Old English stEam; akin to Dutch stoom steam
Date: before 12th century
1 : a vapor arising from a heated substance
2 a : the invisible vapor into which water is converted when heated to the boiling point b : the mist formed by the condensation on cooling of water vapor
According to my reading of this, the visible vapor rising from a hot faucet is, indeed, "steam" -- as is the breath that comes our of your mouth at cold temperatures.
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Have you ever turned on a hot faucet that wasnt boiling hot water (212f or 100c)? What happens? It steams. So you can create steam without boiling water. Unless my faucet and every other faucet on planet earth is different from yours. So when we bring water to 140f (poaching temperature) it doesnot steam? It in fact does.
Bottom line:
When you pull a pot of hot water of the stove that WAS boiling, and 2 minutes later ceases to boil..........it still persists to steam. Water doesnt just decide to no longer steam after it hits 89c.
McDowell's definition of "steam" is a very certain kind of definition, and one that does not fit your use. Let me give you another example: I am playing (American) football in Wisconsin in January. It is 4 degrees F outside. When I come to the sideline, I take my helmet off. Steam can be seen rising from my scalp. Are you trying to tell me that the sweat on my head is 212F? That I'm boiling water with my head? Not only that, but I think we can say that the steam rising from my head is demonstrably not hotter than the water on my scalp.
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Inventolux, you didn't really address Dave's question, which is: please explain why keeping poultry at 120F for an extended period of time wouldn't tend to grow a lot of bacteria.
Also... I'm not sure that I agree with you that "steam is amost always hotter than boiling water." There are many things that can cause water to undergo a phase shift from liquid to gas that do not necesssarily include mean that the water gas will be above the boiling point of water. I think we can agree, for example, that the water mollecules in a 70F room are at 70F and not at 212F. How exactly do you think it would work so that the water inside of a duck leg in a 135F water bath could possibly reach 212F? In fact, I'd be interested to hear an explanation that obeys the laws of physics for how any part of that duck leg could possibly reach any temperature above 135F (assuming that the duck leg was below 135F before being intriduced to the water bath).
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I don't know if Delmonico's is the oldest, but it's been around since the mid 1800's. Many of the menu items currently served have been around for years. It tends to get very mixed reviews from modern diners.
AFAIK, Delmonico's is not continuously running, per Holly's question #1 above. My understanding is that it was open from 1834 to 1923, closed for some number of years, and then reopened -- possibly not even in the original location. The new place is a rather pedestrian steak house wanna-be, and not the ultra-fine-dining establishment of the old days.
Interestingly, Delminico's at one time issued its own currency.
Delminico's is credited with the first examples of Baked Alaska, Chicken a la King, Eggs Benedict, Lobster Newburg, and other famous dishes.
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So, are you going to try the "Skinny-Dipping at Dusk" recipe then?
Somehow I think I'd need something larger than a roasting pan if I were going to roll myself in it. Sounds like something to try with the girlfriend, though...
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This article has the following to say, which I have never heard before:
Until the 1840’s everyone used the American style of handling dining utensils. Around 1852, a French etiquette book announced that if one wanted to eat in a high-class manner, one would not switch the fork to the other hand. Eventually this "continental style" evolved and Europeans of all classes started using it. Americans made the "original" style their style, and continue to use the American style today. Actually, both the American and Continental styles are appropriate with Continental style becoming the more contemporary way to eat. -
During my formative years in New England vanilla ice cream and chocolate syrup (or chocolate ice cream and vanilla syrup -- or, if you could get the guy to do it, a little bit of all four) . . .
Thanks, Sam.
The fact that you spent your formative years *in* ice cream & syrup explains a lot.
Jeez.. you leave out one comma...
On the other hand, maybe you are commenting on my good taste and deliciously cool personality?
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Ok so for a chocolate milkshake do you prefer making it with chocolate ice cream and milk or vanilla ice cream, milk, and chocolate syrup (or other forms of chocolate)?
During my formative years in New England vanilla ice cream and chocolate syrup (or chocolate ice cream and vanilla syrup -- or, if you could get the guy to do it, a little bit of all four) was called a "black & white." A vanilla was vanilla ice cream/vanilla syrup; a chocolate was chocolate ice cream/chocolate syrup. Of course, for those of you who are not from the region with the highest per capita ice cream consumption in America, we're talking about frappes and not milkshakes. Ask for a chocolate milkshake in Boston and you get a glass of whipped chocolate milk.
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I have never switched my fork from my left to my right hand and furthermore can't think of anyone I know who does.
Then, Mr. Kinsey, it's only because you haven't noticed. We've eaten together countless times, and I always do the switch.
See... that must be why it always takes you two times longer to finish than everyone else at the table! You're eating inefficiently.
On the other hand, given that you can put away an alarming amount of food and still remain slender, maybe there's something to this hand-switching thing.
Duck Confit
in Cooking
Posted
Assuming you do not have any lamb fat lying around, I would think a cheap evoo would work nicely. Technique-wise, it's all the same.