skchai
-
Posts
1,038 -
Joined
-
Last visited
Content Type
Profiles
Forums
Store
Help Articles
Posts posted by skchai
-
-
You're right that there may be people who would pay substantially higher prices for laulau, kalua pig, or lomi salmon that's prepared just right. In general, there may be some cases in which plate lunch classics could be sold at higher prices if they're simply prepared well and with the best ingredients.
Indeed, certain plate lunch classics are fast food adaptations of ethnic foods that are also successfully sold at mid-range restaurants at higher prices. Tonkatsu is an obvious example - people still go to Japanese restaurants and pay $10+ for tonkatsu teishoku, even if tonkatsu's available for $3.50-6 at plate lunch places.
Here are a couple of related reasons why I would hesitate, however, in making "just-right" preparation it the entire basis for a mid- or casual-range restaurant concept (not that you were suggesting this).
* While most plate lunch versions or adaptations of classics fall short, there are always versions that go beyond that. For instance, the lau lau and kalua pig at Helena's and Ono's are both first class is quality and quantity (lomi salmon is more difficult given the cost of salted salmon). While neither is a pure plate lunch place, if I recall correctly, their prices are close to the plate lunch class (< $10). So in order to do well with just-right laulau, the entrepreneur would probably have to give some value-added above this, probably more a matter of ambience rather than quality, since as I've said, I think the quality would be hard to improve on. BTW Helena's won a James Beard Foundation award a few years ago as one of their "Regional Classics".
* While it's true that some people pay $20 for a few ribs and white bread, my impression is that these people are VICTIMS or POSERS rather than BBQ nostalgics. Yes, baby back ribs at Tony Roma's cost nearly $20 (I couldn't help it, my cousin from Korea wanted to go) but you can have a huge feast of real BBQ for less than that even in Hawai`i at Molly's Smokehouse. And though I haven't tasted my way across the BBQ belt the way you have, how many of those places charge more than $20 for a plate of ribs, pulled pork or brisket? From a non-systematic geographically dispersed survey of some of Roadfood's more notable reviewed sites: Moonlight BBQ, Owensboro KY, $8; Louie Mueller's, Taylor TX; $10; Arthur Bryant's, Kansas City MO, $12; Charlie Vergos Rendezvous, Memphis TN, $15 (but that's for a full meal). That's not directly relevant to Hawai`i, of course, but shows that people will always be able to find the "just-right" for a cheap price if they're akamai enough. And if they're not - who wants to make money off those types?
I do think, however, that there can and should be a number of standard, basically unmodified plate lunch items on a mid-range menu. They need to be there for those who are extremely timid about trying new things but either have the resources to not mind step up a level in price, or are dragged there by their girl/boyfriend, family, etc. An here, you would want to make sure that the execution was flawless to justify the price, so that these people will actually return to eat again, and hopefully to try other menu items as well.
Anyway, Foodzealot, I hope you answer back with reasons why all this wrong!
-
Chris - As an introduction to the plate lunch experience, I think L&L is a good representative. On the average, the quantity and quality are O.K., but the variety of side dishes is not at the same level as some other places. I think the Gardena location should be among the better mainland franchises, since there are many Hawai`i people living in that area. If you want to try what's popular in Hawai`i, I recommend the Chicken Katsu, Hawaiian Barbecue Chicken, Fried Mahimahi, or Beef Shortribs, or better yet a combo plate of some sort because it gives you chance to try a number of different mains.
-
If there is any specific title that you want to change, just click report this post and ask the moderator to edit it for you.
Done.
That would depend on whether or not the searcher checks 'entire post' or 'title only.' Try to use Hawaii in the text of the post at least once.Sorry for belaboring the point, but I'm certain that any search which has 'entire post' checked will also check the title as well. I even went out and searched a particular thread under a word that appears only in the title but not in the body, whilst checking 'entire post'. The thread came up in the results anyway.
Thanks,
Sun-Ki
-
Mamster, here's a very basic intro to plate lunch. The plate lunch is a local standard in Hawai`i, the most popular form of fast food in a state that consumes fast food in great quantities. It consists of a main dish adapted from one or another of the ethnic cuisines of the islands, two scoops of rice, and a side dish, which is usually macaroni salad nowadays. The better places offer multiple side dishes. Servings are large and little consideration is given to dietary balance or calories. It is usually eaten with disposable wooden chopsticks. There are a number of variations on the plate lunch, most notably in recent years the Korean-style plate lunch, which usually consists of a grilled meat dish (bulgogi, kalbi, etc.), two scoops, and a few vegetable dishes. Plate lunch places probably evolved from the lunch wagons that frequented the plantations fields in the early and middle parts of the 20th century, selling meals to hungry workers of various nationalities. Hence they became a natural mixing place for the cuisines of those nationalities.
It's a big topic, so I'm sure this is pretty inadequate. I've posted links to some additional resources in the Honolulu Dining digest in the Media forum, many of which relate to plate lunch.
There's a Hawaiian plate lunch place in Seattle called Aloha Plates (there are probably others, but this is the one inside Uwajimaya, the big Asian supermarket).I visited Uwajimaya's main branch (the one with the apartment complex on top) when my family was in Seattle a couple years ago. Great place, and very interesting mix of restaurants. If I remember correctly, there was a Wolfgang Puck's Chinois outside, and a food court inside with all kinds of ethnic alternatives. I don't remember Aloha Plates, however. Did it get created in the last few years?
I have an uncle who's Samoan and has lived in Hawaiian with his family for a long time. I can remember him getting a huge tub of mayo for Christmas before. That's actually what he wanted. As many know, Polys love mayo, allegedly because of it's similar consistency to coconut cream. They put it on everything. Macaroni salad is just noodles covered in mayo, really, so I'd guess it has something to do with that.ExtraMSG, you're probably right about the mayo. People of the Polynesian islands have in general taken to processed high-calorie foods in a big way. The fabled popularity of spam in Hawaii is another example. Why is this? There are probably a number of reasons. One may be the attraction of high-calorie foods to people whose lifestyles until fairly recently consisted of largely of very strenuous physical labor. Another may be the difficulty of importing fresh foods given their distance from major producing centers. For whatever reason, people do seem to enjoy their mac salad here.
Best plate lunch I've ever had (and I've had a lot for a howlie) was at Mark's Place in Kauai. It's just a caterer with a to-go kitchen in an industrial part of town. Fabulous stuff. Everything was very fresh with excellent cooking technique and refined sauces. A big step above the average plate lunch with no step up in price.I think L&L can be decent, depending on the outpost. But it's really just B-grade plate lunch. It's usually easy to find a place that's significantly better just by asking around.
Never had a chance to try Mark's Place, though after hearing your rec I wish I had. Contrary to popular impression, most Honolulu residents rarely make it over to the neighbor islands - it's a special occasion thing unless you have business there. I agree with you that L&L is O.K. but not great most of the time. I think the reason why they've been able to expand so fast is that their co-founder Eddie Flores is a great financial manager and has managed to mobilize capital in a big way. He actually started his career as a banker and then had his own investment brokerage company before going into the food business.
-
Thanks so much for the replies!
Great memories, Mamster. Yes, gyoza is one of the many popular toppings for saimin that I neglected to mention in my earlier post. Others are roast pork, chicken katsu pieces, shrimp, kim chi, cabbage, portuguese sausage, hot dogs, shredded teriyaki beef, etc. etc. In fact, one of the great things about saimin is that just about anything in the local cupboard is fair game, and it's still "saimin". Contrast this to Japanese ramen, which takes many forms, but each form is codified and has its own proper recipe.
Yes, ExtraMSG, Hamura's is the place. In fact, a lot of people consider it the best in the state. People usually get the meat sticks and the lilikoi pie too along with their saimin - that's part of the ritual.
-
Suvir - I've already sent my congratulations via email, but it bears repeating: congratulations.
One thing that impresses about the menu is the extent to which each dish provides a truly unique set of tastes and textures, yet there is an overall balance to each section of the menu. While the tendency is towards the creative and the regional, there are also restaurant comfort foods like butter chicken and saag (although I'm sure they are prepared in your own special way). Furthermore, there seem to be a number of items that wouldn't be found on any menu I've seen in the U.S. (N.Y. may be different), each provides a connection with something more familiar, combining familiar ingredients with unfamiliar techniques, or vice-versa. Hence there is nothing that would be "threatening" even to the uninitiated.
I am certain that a great deal of thought went into selecting each and every item on the menu. All this without having tasted it - which I hope to get around to soon enough! I am sure that given the skill you and Hemant Mathur bring to the kitchen, the execution will be as flawless as the planning.
-
There are all kinds of recipes there. Thanks again, Polly.
-
FoodZealot, thanks for your great response to this thread. I think you are exactly on the money on why the middle range Hawai`i local cuisine hasn't developed more. It's very hard to come up distinguish this category from the plate lunch while keeping expenses sufficiently under control
I'll make the following totally unsupported speculations on what a mid-range local restaurant need to be successful in the short run financially, and also succeed in bridging HRC and plate lunch gap:
1) Aim for price points of about $8-15 an entree. Even "casual" restaurants that charge $15-25 an entree are going to be seen as luxury, high-class destinations by most local residents, and hence can't really fill the role we're talking about in the sense of being places people can go to on a regular basis.
2) Justify this premium over plate lunch prices in part by providing a "restaurant" atmosphere, and for at least the more expensive entrees ($12-15) more deluxe ingredients such as ahi, shrimp, and ribeye (about Costco grade or thereabouts). By a restaurant atmosphere, I don't mean luxury, but rather carpeting, tablecloths, soft lighting and such, rather than formica and vinyl.
3) Help keep labor costs under control by making prep extremely simple - grilled, braised, stir-fried, and deep-fried items, plated without adornment or accompaning sides. Instead, entrees should be served "Chinese-style" with portions meant to be shared, and meat and vegetable dishes all considered as entrees.
4) The connection with HRC should not so be so much in the creativity or elegance but in the wider range of ingredients, with an emphasis on local procurement. Have desserts on the menu. While taro and breadfruit, locally-grown greens, and tropical fruits are not part of the plate lunch shopping list at this point, there are plenty of local home-style recipes that can be used or adapted to take advantage of such ingredients without resorting to complexity. This in turn can also help account for the difference that justifies the higher-than-plate lunch price points.
4) Try to in at least some of the tourist market by of course advertising the restaurant as "Hawaii Cuisine" and playing up the local origin of the ingredients whereever possible. But expect a much lower percentage of your custom to be tourist-related than is true for HRC. Tourists (on the average) to be less sensitive to price than locals, even those with similar resources, since they treat their trips as special occasions. And of course, the very fact that they are able take a trip here implies that they will not be impoverished. Those with curiosity about local cuisine will seek out HRC, though they may occasionally soak up the local flavor by seeking out plate lunch. Those with no curiosity will eat at Sizzler's.
Anyway, those are my vague thoughts. I'm sure that there's a lot of holes in them. Also, even if they're accurate, easier said than done!
But it was fun to think about it.
Thanks again for the post FoodZealot. Very glad to have you aboard on Egullet. Hope we and the other Hawai`i connected people can keep a conversation going on these and related topics. . .
-
Just kidding about the "oooooweeeee". . . Good luck!
By the way, Time-Life's African Cooking in Foods of the World is a good choice. It definitely has a bobotie recipe - and a nice picture to boot.
-
Steven, your logic is too strong! I must go back and undergo more training!
How about this - I will use "Hawaii" in the headers but "Hawai`i" in the body of messages. I assume this should take care of the search problem but also allow for the more accurate usage otherwise.
Is there some way for me to to go back and edit the headers for threads I've started in the last day or so? I have links to them in post a little before this one. Tho' it may be irrelevant given the underwhelming response they're received!
-
TheMadman,
Sorry for this late and inadequate response to your very interesting inquiry. I think one reason there haven't more replies is, as you mention, vegetarianism is still fairly rare in SE Asia.
The main exceptions, I suppose, may be the foods found in Thai Buddhist temples. I unfortunately don't have any recipe books and am not aware of any in English. And, as far as I know, even high caste Balinese Hindus eat meat.
Your best bet may be Nancy McDermott's Real Vegetarian Thai. I don't have this, but do have her previous book, which was quite thoroughly researched. However, it does not catalog temple cuisine, but rather McDermott's adaptation of meat dishes, which may not be what you want.
The publisher's blurb reads:
Traditional Thai cuisine includes meat, fish, and seafood. In Real Vegetarian Thai, McDermott carefully adapts her recipes as needed to create great Thai dishes for the vegetarian kitchen. By omitting nahm plah, the ubiquitous fish sauce which seasons virtually all savory Thai dishes, and replacing meat, fish, and seafood with a cornucopia of fresh vegetables including portobello mushrooms, Japanese eggplant, sweet red peppers and butternut squash, McDermott transforms classic Thai dishes into vegetarian feasts, sure to please guests and family members whether they are vegetarians or not.I did manage find some recipes on the web under the "East Asia" (sic) recipe index page for the International Vegetarian Union. Most of these also seem to be adaptations of nonveg dishes as well, but that may simply be the norm for vegetarian food in SE Asia.
Good luck with your restaurant!
-
Hey Kristine - great thread!
Wanted to contribute links to a few contenders from the other side of the East Sea / Sea of Japan:
"French" (allegedly Camembert) Pizza from Dominos
Ever-Popular Bulgogi Pizza, also from Domino's. Look about halfway down the page.
More Bulgogi Pizza, Papa's Pizza
From Pizza Hut, the "Texarkana" Pizza. Very top. What makes it "Texarkana"? High-quality kalbi steak and fresh celery, of course! Even more bulgogi pizza fifth from top.
"Sweety Pizza" with sweet potato and cheddar cheese on top, from Mr. Pizza. Even more bulgogi pizza! "Vageterian" too (hope that's not a Freudian thing).
O.K., there's nothing so marvelously weird as pizza with lattice pie crust, but you can't deny that they're trying.
-
Bobotie is a popular Cape Malay-inspired meat casserole dish. It typically consists of spiced chopped lamb or beef cooked topped with a beaten egg and baked in an oven. There should be several recipes out there on the web - try South African sites such as Henries Hotch Potch on iafrica.com. While you're at it, I would cut out the "oooooweeee!" that probably won't go over very well.
-
An addendum to my previous post: I did the obvious and tried simple searches on google using "hawaii" vs. "hawai`i". "Hawaii" turned up "about" 24,300,000 hits while "Hawai`i" turned up "only" 962,000. So I guess the non-diacritical usage is more common (BTW `okina is a grave (`), not an apostrophe ('), though it doesn't matter to google, which treats both more or less as if they were spaces).
So there may be some reasons to drop the `okina to improve search engine visibility. However, as you may know, Google Pagerank algorithm ranks pages based on a recursive centrality formula that weighs both number and popularity of links in. It's likely that the links from pages that use "hawai`i" as their anchor text would be authoritative and hence more popular, so the evidence, even from ranking criteria alone, isn't as clear-cut as it might seem at first glance.
-
I know what you are talking about. It's definitely a problem. However, the obverse problem is that if we use "Hawaii", web searches with "Hawai`i" as the search string will not find us.
Use of the "`" (`okina), indicating a glottal stop, has become the standard in media and everyday usage in Hawai`i / Hawaii. For instance, this style has been adopted by all the local newspapers and magazines I'm aware of. I'm talking about English-language print media, not Hawaiian language. Hence it's not clear at this point, even from a national or international point of view, which style is more prevalent. Moreover, use of the `okina promotes more accurate pronounciation, which is the main reason why it's become popular locally. People who want to comprehensively search for articles regarding some aspect of the state have to search using both strings (though using one or the other is actually a decent way of filtering for articles that originate in-state or out-of-state).
In the long run, I hope that Google will tinker its algorithm to ignore diacritical marks when searches originate from its English language standard form, while paying attention to them when searches originate from forms for languages in which ignoring such marks would lead to ambiguity. It can''t be THAT hard and they're certainly not averse to tinkering. Even hot-linked searches that bypass the form can be distinguished based on their "ie=" (encoding) and "hl=" (language) fields in their cgi interface.
In the meantime, I'm willing to use "hawaii" if this is strict Egullet policy. However, it wasn't clear from the thread you mentioned whether this is the case. Steven wrote that he "recommend"(ed), not required, the use of basic English-language keyboard characters. Jason even suggested ways to use character map in windows to enter special characters! So I (and the other Hawaii / Hawai`i posters, presumably) would appreciate some clarification before deciding how to proceed.
Thanks, though, for your concerns!
-
Continuing with this thread . . . many of the great dishes of local cuisine were probably invented at home to put simple and palatable meals on the table, rather than by restauranters / entrepreneurs. Just take a look at some of the recipe collections put out by local volunteer organizations or the "best local" series written by Jean Watanabe Hee. There are all kinds of dishes that seem to start from Chinese, Japanese, Hawaiian, Filipino, Korean, Portuguese cuisine, then veer off in another direction.
Not so much self-conscious "fusion" as practical adaptation. Some frequent types of adaptation that come to mind:
(1) more meat, more grease :) - primitive smilie.
(2) use of convenience foods like canned tuna and spam (e.g. spam musubi, canned tuna futomaki)
(3) substitution of ethnicity-specific ingredients with easier-to-stock "generic" or "local" ingredients (e.g. replacing mirin in teriyaki with white sugar and sometimes pineapple juice; replacing katsuo dashi with chicken broth in saimin; replacing the two "s"'s in "malassada" with one "s" in "malasada" :) - another primitive smilie.
(4) conversely, broadening the use of an ethnicity-specific ingredient, thus making it more worthwhile to stock it in the pantry (e.g. furikake going on everything from breading for deep-frying to stir-fried noodles; kim chi going into sandwiches, sushi rolls, etc.)
Any other categories of adaptation you wish to add?
More importantly, how often do you find yourself preparing an ethnic recipe in your own kitchen, and substituting ingredients or techniques to fit your own equipment and pantry. When you do so, do you ever have in mind the creation of a new dish, or are you just trying to get by? Some examples and anecdotes would be nice!
-
I've started a new thread in the Pacific NW / Alaska / Hawaii Forum to cover the dining out, as opposed to cooking, aspects of this thread.
The Future of Hawai`i Restaurants: New Concepts, "Theories of the Mid-Range"
And, in the interest of stirring up some more posts about Hawai`i, I've also started a few new threads in that forum. Any kind of feedback at all appreciated!
-
In the interest of stirring up some more posts about Hawai`i, I started a few new threads in the Pacific NW / Alaska / Hawaii Forum. Looking for some kokua from previous posters and lurkers - get those typing fingers moving . .
Saimin in Hawai`i: Favorites, Origin, Definition, more. . .
Hawai`i Plate Lunch: Past, Present, Future. . .
The Future of Hawai`i Restaurants: New Concepts, "Theories of the Mid-Range"
-
I've taken the privilege of "borrowing" some posts from the Spam and Mac Salad thread over in the Cooking Forum to get discussion going, since these quotes were scattered amongst stuff about other concerns and may be hard to find otherwise.
(1) What restaurant concepts would work in Hawai`I but just haven't been tried or implemented effectively yet?
Kimo wrote:
Maybe this should be a separate thread...what are some food-related businesses missing from Hawaii? In general, food related businesses at a gourmand/foodie level don't always do well in Hawaii (look at the demise of the upscale market, Strawberry Connection in the industrial part of Honolulu, which moved closer to town and didn't survive). However, my surf-deprived husband, son, new kid-to-be and I would like to return some day (maybe the next 5-10 years) and possibly open or promote/market one of the following, which could do well in Honolulu:Artisan bakery (i.e. La Brea in LA or Macrena in Seattle)
Restaurant with a great dessert menu, perfect for after the Honolulu symphony/Hawaii Opera Theatre/Blaisdell concerts (there's a fab restaurant in Portland that has a dessert menu of at least 20 desserts with wonderful dessert wines and ports and coffees)
High-end gourmet store like Strawberry Connection in a better location
Wine and cheese shop
Medium-priced Alan Wongs-type restaurant (entrees in the teens, not as fancy with the plating)
Tapas bar
Trader Joes or something like it (maybe Trader Kimos)
Whole Foods or other organic market/deli
A family-friendly restaurant with good food (not just hot dogs and mac-and-cheese)
A medium priced steakhouse (notch down from Ruth Chris)
A great fish/seafood shop with wonderful selections of poke (like Tamashiro Market, but closer to town)
An Atkins-themed restaurant (horror the thought!)
My .02...
Alanamoana wrote:
hey kimo:i'm on the same page as you are...i'm sort of looking to start my own business and i'm wondering what would fit here. i guess that is one reason why i followed fifi's advice in starting this thread. one thing i've noticed is that no one in hawaii is really on-line...notice the geographic section of the discussion forum...if anyone talks about hawaii it is as a tourist ...
of your ideas...there are several that have a fighting chance (imho of course):
bakery
wine and cheese shop
trader kimo's but seriously!
family friendly restaurant that isn't "diner" style (not rainbows, not L&L, not grace's etc etc)
maybe not so good:
there are already hundreds of steak houses (yeah, i tend to exaggerate)
the "farmers' market" behind ward center/warehouse has the poke market...but you could do it better, i'm sure
NO ATKINS! (that's just me talking)
FoodZealot wrote:
Kimo,I've been thinking about your situation. I'm removed from the market, but FWIW, I'd guess the most viable ideas you have are a dessert emphasis restaurant, a medium-priced Alan Wong's type restaurant, a family-friendly restaurant (depends on a lot of factors), and a Trader Joe's type market. I think the customer's concept of value is a governing factor. Word of mouth is pretty powerful there, so you'd want to factor that in.
Tapas/small plates could be really cool, but the pricing issue is tricky, due to aforementioned ...err... thriftyness.
I also would add that I think Trader Joe's and Whole Foods are well run businesses, and would be formidable competitors, should they ever try to establish themselves there. See Wal-Mart.
Back to the food: rainbow jello.
(2) Why is there such a big gulf between everday (e.g. plate lunch) cuisine and high-end (e.g. HRC) dining? Granted, a gap exists in every cuisine, but seems particular large in Hawai`I. What's the prospect for some that would help bridge this gap?
AlanaMoana wrote:
this brings me to another point...with hawaii home to at least three james beard award winners for best chef...and with such an ethnic diversity which includes culinary diversity, why is there such a lack of really good moderate restaurants on the islands? i think that most of us would like to be able to go out and NOT eat at tony roma's or some other corporate chain...also, to not bust the wallet and go to a hotel/resort restaurant. there's so little in the middle!FoodZealot wrote:
As for restaurants, I agree that the middle segment is kinda empty. Several of those well-known guys have done middle level things like Kaka'ako Kitchen, Sam Choy's Breakfast, Lunch and Crab, the Pineapple Room, etc with mixed results, IMHO. I think there are 3 reasons - that the low end places are actually pretty dang good, people have a bias that only "fancy kine haole food" should be expensive and people are used to large portions. Not that it's soooo different from any other place, but it means it is competitive, and can be a little harder to find the right balance of quality, quantity and presentation. You gotta know your customers and listen to what they want.Rachel/Caroline wrote:
I couldn't agree more that HRC did marvels transforming high end food in Hawaii. I'm going to tiptoe gingerly into this discussion because I am a home cook and not a restauranteur. Seems to me that HRC always catered to the visitor trade primarily. Sure locals loved to go to Roys and felt more comfortable there than with the "international" cuisine of the big hotels. But HRC remains (I suspect because I've been away from the islands for nearly a decade) high end. And for locals the economy has not been that good. The efforts that people have already mentioned to bridge high end and local food have not moved ahead nearly as rapidly as I expected when I left the islands.I'm going to have to think this through. But my suspicion is that one of the problems is that mainlanders and other visitors still haven't the faintest idea about what's going on in Hawaii. The Hawaii Tourist Board, Jim Dole et al discovered a marvelous formula for drawing visitors to the islands but it makes the local scene invisible. It does so quite deliberately.
I think of the novelist James Michener. I'm not promoting his work but he was married to a Hawaii Japanese and did think a good bit about the problems of the islands (not always to the liking of people there). Anyway in his novel on Spain, he tells a story, true or not I don't know. In the 60s, the powers that were in the Hawaii state government decided to try a new kind of promotion. Hey, they said, we are a fascinating culture, great Pacific Island and Asian resources, one of the most mixed cultures on earth, an augury of the future. Let's promote this along with our great beaches.
Result (according to Michener) tourism plummeted. Hula and natural bounty was what visitors wanted. So ever since, it's been computers for the locals, luaus for visitors (his phrase more or less).
I don't think HRC has cracked this nut. Maybe no one wants to. May be no one can. Hawaii remains tiny so the visitor market has presumably to be included for any even modestly ambitious restaurant.
What is needed is the entrepreneur who can sell not just food, not just a simplistic notion of fusion foods, but Hawaii's secret. And that, I think, is the sheer glory of what local people have achieved (well, are achieving): a real political and economic transformation of the islands since the 50s. And with it, and indissolubly linked to it, a real grass roots fusion cuisine.
Now that would be revolutionary. But how to pull it off? Well I'm not a restauranteur.
FoodZealot wrote:
Thanks again for your comments, caroline. My disclaimer - I go to Hawaii once a year, and I don't get to eat out all that much because of visiting with family. But IMHO, I think one of the mistakes of HRC has been the emphasis on lightness, delicacy and refinement. Wonton napoleons, crab spring rolls, fancy salads, etc. I think that's the wrong way to go. As you say, there's a disconnect between the roots of it and the target customers. To me, local food is essentially soul food of Hawaii. And as such, I believe it's possible to elevate kalua pig, kau yuk (Chinese red pork belly), and whatever else the same way that the gutbucket food of France becomes the fad dish, like lamb shanks or gumbo for New Orleans. Or in contemporary Southern cuisine, they have brought grits and collards to new levels.A better strategy for the cuisine, IMHO, it to do those dishes that no one wants to make anymore for reasons of time, scale, hassle, smelliness, hard to find ingredients or whatever. There's got to be some substance there, or it's just like something you can find in any other city. Sure, use new techniques, new presentation, and put your twist on it. But if chefs can procure opah and moi in NYC, the Hawaii guys better be doing something better or at least different with their homegrown ingredients. So in a sense, I think it's a "vision thing".
The weakness in my argument is the other issue you brought up - lots of people want the easily digested image of Hawaii, with pre-packaged omiyage(souvenir gifts), puka shell leis, pineapple and papaya with every meal - not the "real" Hawaii. It would be bad business not to include visitors in your business plan. But there are a decent percentage of visitors that go to the areas and the outer islands and look for spots where locals go, just like any other destination.
I suppose for restauranteurs, it's a matter of what route to take to what kind of success do you want? How much Hawaii needs to be in that formula?
skchai (me) wrote:
There are actually a lot of successful middle-range dining places in Honolulu. The only problem is that they aren't really a successful bridge between local grinds and HRC. Most of these places would normally be classified as Asian ethnic food places, usually staffed by relatively recent immigrants, rather than local or Hawaiian. Some of the "stars" of the mid-range in my own limited experience:[list of favorite restaurants deleted]
The missing category, however, consists of the mid-range "local" restaurants, i.e. restaurants that in some way reflect the particular integration of cultures that has taken place on these islands, rather than discrete elements of one or another of those cultures. The main cause, IMHO, is that syncretic local food has a tradition dating from the plantation days, hence the emphasis has been on quantity, thrift, and speed rather than dining experience. Later waves of Asian immigrants, usually from a high SES background, basically created an ethnically-subsegmented middle dining layer, which then could appeal to upwardly mobile sansei, yonsei, etc. without necessarily being "their" food. High-end, however, has always been dominanted by tourist-oriented restaurants and a few special occasion "continental" places frequented by locals, e.g. Michel's, Canlis, et al. in the old days and John Dominis even now.
HRC has not really eliminated this type of stratification, since it basically takes elements of the local food concept, as well as the various ethnic dining concepts, and finally the ideology of fusion, then packages them as haute cuisine for the newer generation of tourists, who no longer want to eat the same foods that they could find back home.
There is not as much financial incentive market this back down to the mid-level. Furthermore, from an intellectual point of view it is actually a much more difficult task than building up HRC. HRC, as haute cuisine, can be "artifical" in the sense of being self-consciously creative; indeed this is considered a virtue as long as it does not do too much violence to the taste buds. "Fusion" has always been a misnomer because the provenance of each individual ingredient or component of a dish is usually obvious. Local plate-lunch type grinds, on the other hand, have evolved slowly over several decades and reflect that evolution in that they comfort the tastebuds of those who have been raised our particular blend of cultures.
So how do we approach the middle range of dining while retaining a local flavor? A "top-down" option, as reflected by Sam Choy's Breakfast, Lunch, and Crab (on Nimitz Hwy nr Hilo Hatties), as well as Alan Wong's Pineapple Room (in Ala Moana Macy's), is to spawn a "casual" version of a celeb HRC chef's fine dining establishment. That's a good idea, and both places turn out good food, but the results "betray" (to use a too-strong word) their origins by offering for the most part slightly cheaper versions of HRC, not a bridge to local food in any meaningful sense. And for dinner, at least, the prices are not even much cheaper than in the fine-dining places.
The alternative, a "bottom-up" one, is to sell glorified versions of plate lunch. Choy's BLC does some of that on its lunch menu, with its fried poke and mixed "bento" plates, and manages to pull in a big local crowd. Russell (3660) Siu's Kaka`ako Kitchen (abutting Ward Center) is even a plate lunch place in ambience, adding things like grilled mahi with capers to the usual katsu n' teri.
Finally, there are those that try eclectic approachs. Onjin's Cafe (near Ward Center, across from Office Depot) takes a simultaneous top-and-bottom approach, selling styro-clam lid containers for dinner (to go only) filled with HRC-type mains. Finally, Big City Diner (on Waialae Ave. in Kaimuki) takes a middle-middle approach, juxtaposing American diner classics like meatloaf with a wide range of typical mid-range Asian ethnic dishes such as braised kalbi, etc.
Back to the main issue, if there is one. Which of these will actually work in bridging local food with HRC in a middle-range, popular dining concept? I dunno. I guess the missing ingredient is time - you can't rush these things. As HRC innovations and, more importantly, sensitivity to ingredients are assimilated (digested?) by the local population, it will become easier and easier to come up with dining concepts that reflect these influences and yet fit in with the resources and aesthetics of mainstream local culture. . .
-
(1) Which plate lunch place do you go to the most often? Why? How do you think the big chains like Zippys and L&L compare to smaller operations like Grace's Inn, Rainbow, Masu's Massive, and (name you own favorite)? What are some of your favorite main dishes - chicken katsu, teri beef, loco moco, fried ahi . . . ??
(2) What's your favorite Korean-style plate lunch place? What do you look for in a good Korean-style plate lunch - main dishes or panchan (sides)? Which panchan do you like the most?
(3) What do you think about plate lunch places that try to incorporate some HRC-type ideas. Examples are Kaka`ako Kitchen or Onjin's (for dinner). I went to Spot's Inn on Dillingham Blvd. the other day and they had Garlic Mahi with Lemon and Capers! Should there be more movement in this direction?
(3) Any ideas for new plate lunch concepts that haven't been tried yet but should?
(4) L&L has expanded in a big way to the mainland, with 25 locations,but has experienced mixed success (the Advertiser can't resist using the obvious pun). Do you think the concept can work outside of, say, California? How does it need to be adapted, if at all?
(5) *** Bonus Question 1 ***
Why do we still have mac salad on all the plate lunch menus after 25+ years? I believe Rainbow, K.C., Diner's or Gracie's originated it (spreading my bets here), but all offered other sides as well. Many places nowadays offer nothing but mac salad and two scoops in addition to the main. Can't we have something more interesting - or at least different variations of the mac salad? Any defenders of the humble mac salad?
(6) *** Bonus Question 2 ***
It seems that almost all the most popular inventions in plate lunch mains over the last 25 years seem to have to do with chicken. Let's see . . . Mochiko Chicken, Garlic Fried Chicken, "Korean Chicken", and the kupuna of them all - Chicken Katsu. Why? Because it's cheap? Because nobody doesn't like chicken (except my wife)? Because you can always fry it and fried things are no ka oi?
-
Saimin has long been one of the defining dishes of local Hawai`i cuisine.
(1) Here are some examples of popular Saimins Stands past and present. How would you rate them? Any others?
Shiro's Hula Hula / Saimin Haven
Hamura's Saimin (Kauai)
Palace Saimin Stand
O&S Saimin
Shige's Saimin Stand
Old Saimin House
Zippy's Saimin Lanai
Old Honolulu Stadium (you have to be ancient to remember this!)
And how about the make-at-home standby, S&S?
(2) What's the difference between Saimin and Ramen? The toppings? The broth? The noodles? The people who eat it and where they eat it?
(3) What do you put on top your Saimin? Char siew? Green Onions? Chopped Egg? Kamaboko? Uhh . . . Spam?
(4) *** Bonus Question 1 ***
Where did the word Saimin come from? The "min" part obviously comes from the Chinese character for noodles, but what about the "sai"?
(5) *** Bonus Question 2 ***
Who invented the "DonDonPa"?
-
It took a long time for me to post anything to this thread! I couldn't think anything intelligent to say - and unfortunately I still have nothing that coherent - just a few scattered remarks.
First, Rachel, while a number of people have noticed the similarities between Mexican and Indian cuisines, you have really done the best job so far of providing a plausible and historically grounded explanation of why this might be. As you imply, the foods of India (particularly the North) and Mexico reflect the lingering influence of classic Arab cuisine that has long since faded in Western Europe under the great culinary waves of the 17th and 18th centuries. I look forward to reading more about these grand cultural movements across time and space in your upcoming history of world food!
As you note, the ancestry of some common practices in Mexican and Indian cookery remain controversial. Here are my speculations on a few practices of this nature, though of course without much evidence:
* Nut-thickening, as is found in Mexican moles and North Indian / Pakistani kormas, is quite likely a Moorish influence. "Korma" itself is word of a Persian or Arab derivation, and is most prominent as a highlight of Mughlai cookery, which was brought over by the Mughal court from their Persian / Afghan ancestral homes. Moles were developed in the Mexican convents, and thus largely reflected Spanish upper-class cookery, which in turn reflected an Arab heritage.
* The prevalence of flatbreads in both cultures is likely something that developed independently of Moorish influence. In Sophie Coe's book, there are long passages taken from Sahagun, some of which speak of "tortillas" as being a common food of the Aztecs during the time shortly following conquest. Indian chapatis and parathas are unlike Arab/Persian-influenced flatbreads (such as naan, kulcha, and shirmal) in that they are made from wholemeal flour and are unleavened, and similar products are described in palace records dating back to the early 12th century, according to Achaya's Indian Food: A Historical Companion.
* The most obvious parallel - the spiciness of the cuisines. A number of caveats are needed here: First, there are great variations in flavorings used across regions within large and multifaceted land masses such as India and Mexico. Furthermore, the vague term "spiciness" can refer to a wide variety of disparate flavoring practices. The Aztec-inspired use of many varieties of chillies is clearly indigenous, while the use of cinammon, cloves, and other perfumed Southeast Asian spices in moles reflects Spanish-Arab influences. Likewise, the cardomon, royal cumin, and saffron of Mughlai cuisine are a far cry from the "chilli-hotness" of rural Andhra cuisine, which is of course a debt India and the rest of the world owes to the Americas.
Your remarks about the China Poblano were fascinating, and brings to mind the hybrid cuisine of the so-called "Mexican Hindus" of the Imperial and Central Valleys in California. These were the offspring of male immigrants from colonial India who came to California in the early part of the 20th century as farm workers, and of their Mexican wives. The term is somewhat of a misnomer since most of these men were in fact Punjabi Sikhs. In Yuba City, N. Cal., there are a number of gurdwaras serving the needs of both long-time and more recent Sikh immigrants. Karen Leonard's Making Ethnic Choices provides a nice overview of their history. Though the influence of their cuisine seems fairly minimal and I haven't been able to find any recipes, anecdotes about "Hindu tacos" and curried enchiladas does pique my curiosity.
-
Good choices, how could you forget Maple Garden (on Isenberg). My favorite Chinese restaurant in the state! I love Ducs Bistro in chinatown for Vietnamese/French. Yanagi Sushi too is very good. Big City Diner- not very good. Korean- Ginas, in the Market City Mall (they even plate my order with no rice and a smile now). Hale Vietnam good, also the Bale in Manoa- I have taken their comforing food (and lots of pho) home many nights with me.
Mekong. Chaing Mai, yum...
Gotta go!
You make good choices, too, Karen!
Amazing that I could forget Maple Garden and Yanagi Sushi. Maple Garden was my father's very favorite restaurant - the owner used to always recognize me when I went to pick up a takeout order. Yanagi Sushi is my mom's favorite - I think it's actually Korean-owned. Both are longtime island favorites.
I didn't include Gina's because it's more a plate lunch place - that subject deserves a thread of its own. The food is truly huge - it's the Masu's Massive of the Korean-style plate lunch world. I think it also won a reader's choice as best Korean in the Advertiser's latest poll.
Never been to Duc's Bistro - I know it's French-Vietnamese and has live music, though. Bale's in Manoa is kind of unusual with all its Thai dishes and Banh Mi juxtaposed. What was your bad experience with Big City Diner?
Anyway gotta go too. . .
-
Mongo, this is a topic close to my heart . . .
Vikram, you are right that kimchi's sharp, fermented taste is sometimes jarring next to Indian spice mixtures. Might I suggest sauteing it for a while, which tends to tone down the sharpness a bit? This is a indeed a traditional Korean way of eating kimchee that has gone a bit sour, usually with a bit of meat and roasted sesame oil as well, though neither is absolutely necessary. Another alternative would be to incorporate kimchi into a kind of rasam, in which the sourness could substitute for other, more traditional souring agents. I have to admit I have never tried this, though.
One important issue is that many kimchis contain small to major amounts of salted small fish or shrimp. This rules them out for veg-only folks. Those of you who belong to this category should be careful to ask your waiters / waitresses if they have purely vegetarian kimchee. Since there are an increasing number of vegetarians in Korea, they very well may be able to oblige. I have a vegetarian Tamilian-Mumbaiker friend who is married to a Korean, and he always has to ask first before partaking of any dish that looks vegetarian. Of course, if any of you are of Bangla origin, the idea of flavoring vegetables with bits of fish won't be that foreign!
I could create a whole topic about the fusion of Indian and Korean food.
My wife and I are both of Korean background and we are often in Seoul. Indian restaurants used to be few and clustered in the foreigner's quarters in Itaewon around the U.S. military installation. I once went to a restaurant there called "Moghul" and ordered a mattar panir, only to be given a spicy tofu dish! Of course, "curry" was everywhere, but it was the Japanized version, not the "real thing". Things have improved quite a bit recently, especially in the upscale neighborhoods south of the Han River, where there apparently are a number of decent Indian places now. There
Saimin in Hawaii
in Hawaii: Cooking & Baking
Posted · Edited by skchai (log)
Tad -
I'm not so sure that what you just talked about doesn't get classified as "saimin". The definition is pretty unclear - yes, it usually uses chinese-style egg noodles, but not everyone does that. Some poeple use plain flour noodles. I recently went to Shiro's off of Dillingham in Kalihi, and it seemed that their noodles had been squeezed out one of those Popeil pasta machines - they were all wrinkly and ready to fall apart at the joints. And Shiro's has been considered one of the prototypical places to eat Saimin!
So udon may be acceptable for saimin. The toppings you mention are definitely local style, particularly the mixing of kim chee, char siu, and kamaboko - broke da mout'! Effortless and (presumably) unconscious creation of pan-Asian cuisine. . .