Syzygies

That is much closer to what I'm homing in on, with an "it is what it is" acceptance of how the KK works. Your analysis nails it, it's a bottom heat source even if I get as close as possible to the dome and heat-soak the dome as much as I can. I've been wondering about better protecting the Fibrament from heat from below; you saved me a lot of trouble not chasing the steel plate angle there.

My apartment oven can hit 550 F, so I'll take this one step at a time, and try the 1/2" steel plate. In California I have a Komodo Kamado (http://www.komodokamado.com/) that can hit 1000 F. I have to talk friends out of cooking steaks at 800 F, because they've never been able to do so before. So I believe in moderation (my pizzas there have been 600 F on a Fibrament stone, and not quite Neapolitan style) but I want to understand my options. I'll probably go your route in getting a 1/2" steel octagon, strip it myself with vinegar, just to understand the alternative. Thanks for your detailed reply!

This idea has been around forever! https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soylent_Green

Ok, I'll bite. What's the best way to get a piece of aluminum you consider adequate?

Well, generalize that: no two ovens are the same. It's dumb to want to recreate Hemingway's mojito, because mint grown anywhere else is different. Same with ovens. A rational cook is intrigued by baking steels because they might take us in the direction of Neapolitan pizza. No one takes seriously the idea that one can cook Neapolitan pizza outside of Naples. One sees how this thing works in our oven, and adapts. I did skip the 3/8" baking steel because I didn't want the Modernist Cuisine logo. Not a Nathan thing, I just don't like logos. Here are two links, and yes that's the ultimate conclusion. No one should go down this DIY road with any illusions, so read all the stories before proceeding. I wouldn't call the failed attempts "conjecture" but yes there's a right way to do this, and some might rather spend the money. http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,22626.0.html http://forum.chefsteps.com/discussion/128/anybody-else-have-a-baking-steel Note the comparison of thermal transfer rates for aluminum. The makers of Fibrament pizza stones also worry about this; they think soapstone has too high a thermal transfer rate, so they'd surely disapprove of baking steels. But it's an empirical question, no?

Just curious if you're going to tell us how much steam you used. 15 grams is not the same as 350 grams.

I have cast iron skillets, cast iron and carbon steel woks, De Buyer Mineral B pans, and Spring USA Blackline pans: http://springusacom.siteprotect.net/products/professional-cookware/blackline/ There was a recent eGullet thread on seasoning pans: http://forums.egullet.org/topic/144193-reseasoning-cast-iron-flaxseed-v-grapeseed-oil/ My research suggested that of all the French-style carbon steel pans I'd be happiest with De Buyer Mineral B, and none I've seen since changes my mind on that. However, the Spring USA Blackline pans are hands down my favorite pans. Right in the middle between cast iron and stamped carbon steel, and a higher quality than either. One needs a different pan for acid reductions (even wine) and one might want a ligher pan for nimble changes of temperature. For general use beyond these restrictions, I reach for the Spring USA Blackline pans first. I have the smallest three but not the largest, which is big. My source was http://www.cooksdirect.com/product/spring-usa-2-quart-fry-pan/carbon-steel-fry-pans It's hard knowing what to do, about seasoning such pans. I made many comparisons, and don't trust "this worked for me" advice from anyone unless they've also made comparisons. There should be two words for seasoning: Getting that black base that protects the pan from rust and supports a nonstick effect after extensive use, and getting that nonstick effect from extensive use. I concluded that the first phase requires drying oils such as flaxseed, and the second phase requires starch (explaining why constant use also works): Nothing beast baking in many very thin coats of flaxseed oil, on all surfaces inside and out, for blackening a pan and protecting it from rust.One can simulate months of use by frying a mass of potato chunks and kosher salt with bacon or other oil or fat.For the second stage, pay attention, but let the starch stick. Then free it aggressively with a sacrificial wooden spoon, rubbing that spot till slick. One wants every part of the cooking surface to go through this, as the potatoes reach a dark brown roux color. Now the pan is amazingly nonstick, at least till one forgets and makes a wine reduction in it. Rinse and repeat.

My 1/2" "Big" version is on order since Monday. Order status shows still in process. I suspect these may be made to order, or at least in batches to keep up with orders. There's a nice discussion elsewhere on exactly how difficult it is to clean a plate of steel from one's local metal yard to the degree these are cleaned. Figure that's 3/4ths of the price, and worth it; it can't be done at home. The suggestion is made that these also can be used for artisan bread, but I couldn't find accounts of anyone doing this. Besides the intended "use like a baking stone", there are two other ways a baking steel could be involved in artisan bread: Above the loaf. Baking steels are said to radiate like crazy. The Tartine Bread cast iron school claims the pot is to contain steam, but in my experience cooking in a cast iron combo cooker is as much about radiant heat. With the Bouchon Bakery approach of sufficient steam (350 grams, not the 15 grams one gets from a plant mister), I don't get the same crusts.On the oven floor, underneath a tray or large skillet for producing Bouchon Bakery levels of steam. The price per pound decreases with thickness, with the "Big" the best value, competitive with other metal sources (all of which are roughly 13% as efficient as water at holding heat). Here, rust is a significant risk to be addressed.Getting several of these sounds expensive, but only compared to a new oven. Most home ovens are woefully inadequate in their thermal mass and radiant heat properties. These baking steels make for a cheap fix? Consider including their cleaning blocks in an order, to get in on the free shipping. These look useful for any backyard grill, and certainly for the baking steel itself.

Your loaves are beautiful. You've compared 0% to 5% of the steam Bouchon Bakery recommends. If I were baking your loaves, I wouldn't feel that I was missing something, either. However, when so many people advocate substantial steam, I cannot reject their ideas out of hand without understanding them, and that requires a fair test. In this case, 100% of the steam Bouchon Bakery recommends, which at home simply isn't possible using a bare oven and a plant spritzer. It requires special equipment, such as rocks and chains. What hydration? What oven temperature, for how long? I do find that freshly ground whole grains act differently from premilled whole grains. My flour would go rancid, sold in a store. Your loavels are beautiful, but at 5% of their recommended steam you haven't given their ideas a fair test. Who knows what you'd get, with your skills and their methods?

I admire loaves with crusts displaying a volcanic "back side of Alicudi" violence, like the preceding quiz picture. I'm hooked on the taste and keeping qualities of levain rather than yeast, and as much freshly ground whole grain flour as practical. I remember the 60's, when whole grain bread was ghastly, and clearly not the same food the French were thinking of. Here, the challenge is not to produce a flying saucer. Sieve out as much bran as possible, which cuts through gluten, and mix entirely by hand, with many folds during the first part of the bulk rise as taught by Tartine Bakery. The loaves should be truly springy when formed, or something is wrong. 250 grams of steam at the onset turns the loaf into a bulging water balloon, with a taut skin. Some might be disappointed that I didn't put a deeper char into the crust, or achieve more volcanic violence. That might be for white flour; with my ingredients I'm happy to no longer be making flying saucers.

I'm guessing middle two, top row, and right two, bottom row, but that's based on how the center slash filled in. I agree they're all close. I'm thrilled that you took on this experiment. I go through stretches where I make a loaf a day, trying to sort out all the variables. Talk is cheap; I believe most in comparisons and experiments. Bouchon Bakery calls for 350 grams of water to turn immediately to steam. Can you estimate (with a scale before and after practice squirts) how many grams of water you used? I made a game out of trying to get as much water as I could out of my plant mister in twelve squirts, and the most I could manage was 15 grams. In other words, Bouchon Bakery is calling for over 20 times more steam than I could hope for by your method. Your plant mister may be more effective than mine, but I'd be very surprised if 12 squirts yielded 350 grams. I presume that they advocate a large mass of chains and rocks, despite the obvious potential for amusement at their expense, because they felt that anything short of such measures would be insufficient. Likewise, commercial bread ovens are capable of producing lots of steam, and commercial bakers rely on this feature. I need an explanation for why this is, before I can dismiss the benefits of steam. My own experience agrees with your picture: I had a hard time telling the benefits of a few squirts of a plant mister. One could draw two possible conclusions from this: Either steam doesn't help much, or I wasn't using enough steam. I drew the second conclusion. Rock is a bit more efficient, but my calculations indicate that it takes over 20 lbs of cast iron to turn 350 grams of warm water to steam. My experience with a somewhat lighter skillet backs this up. One difference that I notice is that the bread smells "right" baking in an oven with lots of steam. Of course this is subjective. A massive skillet (or two stacked) is easier than rocks and chains, but I've had to deal with potential rust. Reseasoning helps. Another option for mass is a baking steel, which I have on order: http://bakingsteel.com/shop/the-big/ These have other uses, and one could protect them from rust with a steel tray on top.

Not sure what to say, I cook it and use it as the primary ingredient in cassoulet. Skinned, quartered and chunked. I cooked it sous vide a few hours, then skinned, quartered and chunked it, and included it along with the juices and fat in the final stages of the cassoulet. But, use your intuition. The light bulb for me was having bouillabaisse explained to me: one adds each fish so it gets the cooking it needs exactly by the time you're ready to serve. Here, if one believes that cotechino needs a gentle four hours, and the final stage of cassoulet needs two hours, then so be it. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cotechino

From The French Menu Cookbook by Richard Olney: As for the gratin, at final assembly he sprinkles the surface with bread crumbs, ladles stew sauce to just cover the beans, dusts lightly again with bread crumbs, and sprinkles with melted goose fat. He cooks at 275 F - 300 F (135 C - 150 C), basting with stew sauce then bean cooking liquid. As a gratin crust forms he breaks it up to partly submerge it, a minimum of three times over at least 2 hours. This is a great book, (his first and available also as an eBook), even though many ingredients are indeed obscure, and he spends a tiresome amount of time explaining how now long-vanished French restaurants get everything wrong.

Sorry! It's 30 C today in California. And I do miss the year I spent a second summer in Sydney.

I've seen (Modernist Cuisine @ Home? Under Pressure?) the point made that rancid fat is a key component of the classic taste of aged duck confit. Just as the can is a key component of the classic taste of canned tomatoes. Let's not confuse the soul of the dish with the flaws of an ancient preservation technique. If one isn't interested in this aspect of authenticity, then duck confit is all about careful cooking of the duck, such as sous vide in fat, which somewhat goes out the window when it goes next into a pot of beans. Or not. Remember that Provencial daube is cooked at a lower heat than experience with other stews might suggest. One could optimize for the characteristics of the meats when making cassoulet, as one optimizes for the characteristics of the fish in the last stages of making bouillabaisse. Yet a characteristic feature of cassoulet is the handling of the crust, which requires a higher heat and specific attention throughout the cook. Read half a dozen recipes (Richard Olney for example) before beginning. Developing an interesting crust is like baking an artisan free form loaf of bread; not paying attention to this is like baking bread in a loaf pan. I've had restaurant cassoulet and acceptable cassoulet from friends that conspicuously missed this aspect of the dish. This is one dish where traveling to taste the original pays off, even if one is going to change it. One should choose the meats as one chooses pizza toppings: freely, but to support the pizza, with less is more. Think of the range of paellas for comparison, and reflect on what "tourist paella" means. Of course this goes on in restaurants, even in France. Here, support the beans. I know nothing that works better than cotechino, though it's Italian. And why is this thread in April? I make cassoulet once a year, in January. It's not even a matter of picking a cool day; our metabolisms are different when the weather is generally colder. The peasant original supported people working hard in the fields, where a broader season makes sense. For them it was serious fuel.

To me, cassoulet describes a particular style of peasant beans. If one leans into it with a pretentious tone, then a dish to avoid. Otherwise, very descriptive of a style of preparation.

My recent cassoulets have been with cotechino, very worth seeking out. Leaving out duck? fine. Provoking traditionalists? Call it a bonus.

The MIniPack Cyclone series (my favorite clamp machines) have a digital display for the vacuum they achieve. It's about 7% in practice, plenty to wrap a pouch very tightly around food, nothing like the 99% the best chamber machines achieve. And visibly at least twice the vacuum any consumer (FoodSaver etc.) clamp machine achieves. So what's the point here? Holding the lid on tightly? I don't see how a 3% reduction in air pressure inside a chamber is going to affect the keeping properties of bread, making a controlled experiment comparing to a tightly sealed container at atmospheric pressure. Cambro sells two grades of lids. The tighter lid is quite tight, but still easier to get on and off than having to start up a clamp vacuum sealer.

I brine in 1/2 cup sea salt, 1/4 cup sugar per gallon water, for four hours or so. I then cook very slowly on a bed of supermarket basil (or large garden basil, at a stage where pesto would taste like lawn clippings) in a Spanish cazuela, in an outdoor ceramic cooker over charcoal with some apple smoke. This is both very easy and spectacular. To eliminate albumin you want to air dry in the fridge after brining, again several hours. This forms a "pellicle" (dried skin) that keeps the salmon from oozing "albumin" (white foam) when you cook it. I don't bother; salmon photographs better with a pellicle, but I find the pellicle more objectionable than the albumin.

On topic, there's one possible advantage to rocks and chains, over stacking several 13 lb cast iron skillets: Vaporizing all the spatter.

http://www.massaorganics.com/ We're on our third 20 lb bag.

With identical recipes (78% hydration, 60% freshly ground, sieved whole grain, hybrid sourdough, from a spreadsheet not a book) I see a dramatic difference from radiant heat, separate from the effects of steam. An enclosure facilitates radiant heat and steam. My question was how others make up for less radiant heat, following Bouchon Bakery's advice.

So, comparing three setups Cast Iron Combo Cooker (Tartine Bread, or similar enclosure)Heavy (11.4 lb) skillet for steam in Komodo Kamado ceramic charcoal cookerHeavy (13.4 lb) skillet for steam in conventional indoor ovenI can add a few observations: Placing a skillet on the floor of an oven, or right on the fire, the skillet gets hotter than the nominal oven temperature, and the skillet does reheat like a pot on a flame, not a stew surrounded by air on an oven rack. So one gets a bit more steam right away, and later, than I've suggested. Nevertheless, I plan to double up my skillets. A Dutch oven or cast iron combo cooker enclosure contributes not only enclosed steam, but radiant heat, which changes how the crust cooks. I see significant radiant heat in my first two setups, but not in my conventional oven, and it's obvious in the crust. A matter of taste; the radiant heat crust is more dramatic, yet my wife prefers the plainer crust as a supporting player, just good food not about the bread. Have others who have given both Tartine Bread (or other enclosure advocates) and Bouchon Bakery fair trials also seen this difference? Can one compensate with higher heat, or a stone just above the bread? (Over a charcoal fire in a ceramic cooker, hotter air is never the same as more radiant heat from cooker walls...)

Actually I have, and also the "5 minutes a day" protocol. It is very instructive to see what one can get away with not doing, making bread. Then one can figure out what one wants to do. Pizza is more forgiving than bread, and an easy spinoff with these methods. Everyone should try these methods, if just to have pizza regularly with less planning and effort. Saying one idea is like or close to another idea is always a tricky business, as everyone sees different aspects of a situation. I'm a mathematician and I see this a lot. The strongest mathematicians I know see everything as one idea. The weakest ones pick up an idea one village over, and pass it off as their own. So I'm always struggling to see what's in common. Of course there are also differences. I did mean what I said. There's one axis on which one can plot bread techniques, and that's the degree of agitation of the dough. I first learned to manhandle dough like some rough massage session, and that's pretty far from any of these techniques. My own preference is to make slowly developing straight sourdoughs using mostly grains that I've ground myself, sieving out the bran. This flour includes fresh germ, unlike what one buys as "whole wheat" flour. I find this bread much more challenging to make than any beginner recipe I've seen in these books, but I love the taste and keeping qualities, and I get a loaf that I simply can't buy. The revelation about the various no-knead approaches is that with whole grains, no matter how much bran one sieves out, there's bran left in the dough, waiting to slice through gluten like so many safety razor blades, if one agitates the dough wrong. No-knead avoids this damage. Stretch and fold avoids this damage. Kneading like a 50's sitcom doesn't work so well, and this appears to me to be a partial explanation. Yes, I see bread as a continuum, where one picks up elements of technique from each of these sources. That's why so many of us use a spreadsheet that we tweak as our recipe.

I adore a spirited debate, so I raced over to see what you had to say. Not easily finding my bearings, I then applied a site-specific Google search which returned the following three links: site:thepartisanbaker.com steam http://thepartisanbaker.com/2012/03/30/boston-brown-bread/ http://thepartisanbaker.com/starters/ http://thepartisanbaker.com/2010/03/12/dalek-bread/ If you have an opinion on adequate steam for baking single loaves of bread in a home oven, I couldn't find it. You surely have much more experience baking that I do; I'd love to read what you have to say about steam on your blog, when you write it. My approach here (and I presume of many of us) is to figure out how to make a technique practical for my circumstances, master it to a degree any proponent would view as a fair test, and then decide for myself if the technique is worth the trouble. This thread is such an exploration, and a poster child for why I love eGullet. Meanwhile, one humors many assertions not based on comparisons, that one is satisfied with one's results without exploring said technique. Fine. Meanwhile, I'm reminded of a neighboring thread, on how one can't blindly trust Google restaurant ratings. One has to consider the context of each such rating. Huh. There are many sources competing for attention in the bread baking arena, and strong evolutionary pressure for each entrant to brand themselves into one corner of the ongoing debate. "Five minutes" or "no knead" bread? Tartine Bread and Flour Water Salt Yeast are moderates near this corner (relying on bakery fame rather than point of view for sales) http://www.amazon.com/Tartine-Bread-Chad-Robertson/dp/0811870413 http://www.amazon.com/Flour-Water-Salt-Yeast-Fundamentals/dp/160774273X and they both advocate a truly modest amount of folding of the dough for superior results. Could any author that branded themselves out of this option ever admit that this actually makes a difference? I observe that it does. Understanding bread advice is like understanding restaurant reviews. So my fear is that calling oneself a partisan backs one into a corner. The truth is often somewhere in the middle. I'm glad that I learned something about the physics, and boiling off a few cups of water with 30 lbs of cast iron isn't that challenging. We all have baggage; mine is that my parent's generation believed that the thin copper film on Revere Ware pans actually did something. There are matters of scale in cooking, and Bouchon Bakery is addressing this matter of scale with their rocks and chains. And of course setting up the potential for backlash. Stacking a few giant cast iron skillets is boring by comparison.