Craig Camp
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Posts posted by Craig Camp
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I think this is 100% a question of focus. I know wine people -- people who pick the wine first and then find food to match it -- who will discuss these subtlties endlessly. On the other hand, food people -- who pick the food first and then find a wine to match -- find it a bit too much.
That hypothesis doesn't stand up to cross-cultural comparison, though, does it? Because if we accept that top restaurants in Europe rarely if ever do course-by-course pairings, then we have a large body of "wine people" who don't fit the hypothesis.
I didn't realize that Europe was our standard in this regard. If it is, it's not a very good one as few Europeans know much about their own best wines, which are often mostly exported. For example, more than 80% of Barolo is consumed outside of Italy.
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I think this is 100% a question of focus. I know wine people -- people who pick the wine first and then find food to match it -- who will discuss these subtlties endlessly. On the other hand, food people -- who pick the food first and then find a wine to match -- find it a bit too much.
What happens when you get a wine and food person?
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So, pick a good wine --why not an excellent wine?-- which is not too intrusive and enjoy your meal. And your wine, too!
A sommelier in a top London restaurant told me recently that he believes he got the job because he told the chef at his interview that he didn't really believe in matching food and wine and just wanted his customers to enjoy what they were drinking, whatever it was. Apparently that was music to the chef's ears.
I think that's quite the fashionable thing for sommeliers to say these days, but I've met few that did not have very exact ideas of what wines they thought were the best for various dishes.
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What ever happened to just drinking a bottle or two of wine with a meal?
The same thing that happened to being satisfied with the plastic food at your local chain grocery.
That's a surprising comparison to make in my view. I think trying to pair a wine with every two or three bites of food on an extended tasting menu can easily become rather tiresome and be more about marketing pricey wines to a certain sector of the restaurant going public than the pleasures of the table. What could possibly be wrong with carefully selecting an adaptable wine to compliment a number of different dishes? To me, that shows respect for the efforts of both the chef and the winemaker without turning a sociable meal into a convoluted and expensive exercise.
Well you could make the same argument for an extended tasting menu then. At what number of courses does it become tiresome?
What could possibly be wrong with carefully selecting an adaptable wine to compliment a number of different dishes?Absolutly nothing 99% of the time, but perhaps restaurants like Alinea are that other 1%.
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I believe the people from Le Marche lay claim to this dish. I have a recipe but it calls for lots of organs, lungs, esophagus etc. If you would like it, I can PM it to you.
What you ate, may very well have been sublime, but it's a 'clean' version of the real deal. Make your recipe and enjoy! That's my advice.
This is it. It's a regional specialty of Le Marche.
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Steven, I do not see anything wrong or even pushy about Alinea's language regarding wine pairings. They happen to do a fabulous job with it and would IMO be doing their customers a disservice by not highlighting it. As for the comparison with El Bulli, it is a different restaurant with a different style and focus. They both work well. The wine pairings happen to work particularly well at Alinea and IMO represent a good value for the amount, variety and quality of wines served not to mention the synergism a good pairing has with the food. That Adria chooses to focus less on that aspect of dining should have no bearing on the experience at Alinea. Each approach works very well for the respective restaurant. I think your argument is more cogent if using restaurants other than Alinea as examples, where prices may be inordinately high for mediocre wines that don't even necessarily match all that well with easily matched food.
I agree with you John, Alinea sees the wine and food as part of the same experience and to choose some wines would detract from the statement Grant is trying to make with that dish. Alinea is not a normal restaurant and they are looking to create a unique synergy with the food and the wine. You go to Alinea for the experience, not simply because you are hungry.
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What ever happened to just drinking a bottle or two of wine with a meal?
The same thing that happened to being satisfied with the plastic food at your local chain grocery.
How can the same people who will drive all over town to find the right butcher, the freshest vegetables, pristine seafood, ethnic ingredients and great bread feel it's too nitpicky to pair wine with food?
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I just had one of their pinot noirs for the first time (didn't catch the year/specific name/etc.), and it was just like their rhone-grape wines.
Thank you for mentioning that. Pinot is not supposed to taste like syrah and vice versa. Do we really need to turn all varieties into the same wine?
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Not that there is anything wrong with Zin, which I like, but not with turkey.
It just shows how palates differ Craig. I can think of no better wine to serve with turkey than a zin. I don't think a pinot stands up to the dark meat at all, though I do think it works well with the breast.
I choose zin because I think it matches both very well.
I think the issue is is that you like the flavor of zinfandel so you accept those flavors with a wide range of foods just so you can drink zinfandel, which you love. I do the same thing with pinot noir and drink it with almost everything because there is nothing in wine I love so much as the flavors and structure of pinot noir (except, of course, for nebbiolo).
But you have to take into account I am an total geek. I live pinot noir as a daily experience as someone who is dedicated his life to making that varietal.
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"It just shows how palates differ Craig. I can think of no better wine to serve with turkey than a zin."
Better than reisling?
Now you're talkin' !
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It just shows how palates differ Craig. I can think of no better wine to serve with turkey than a zin. I don't think a pinot stands up to the dark meat at all, though I do think it works well with the breast.
Why? How does it work and what do you drink with a big New York Strip at Morton's if you think Zin works best with turkey?
I haven't tasted many full, jammy pinots though. I tend to lean toward the more delicate side. Aside from the Loring, what would you recommend of the former?None.
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Craig and Sneakeater, are you telling me that you've put a California or Oregon pinot on the table at the same time as a jammy zinfandel, for a group of non aficionados, and gotten more favorable reactions to the pinot than to the zin? Maybe the local palate here is different, but I just did this like a month ago and there was no contest. The wines were Nuthouse and Renwood. The meal was turkey but the preferences were well established before anybody ate anything. I was the only person in the room who preferred the pinot. I haven't found that people have any problem with high-alcohol wines, either. The closer to Port the better. I drink a lot of Oregon pinot noir -- more than I drink of any other wine -- but have pretty much stopped bringing it to people's houses because I find the zins, syrahs and things of that ilk are better received.
Just to elaborate on the point - with the weight and girth of most American pinot noir these days, you'd be hard pressed to call them delicate in any sense. Most are rich, dark ripe wines in excess of 14% alcohol and more than a few are out and out jammy (ever taste a Loring?). So you you want a wine with pinot on the label and Zin-like wine in the bottle you'll have no trouble finding one.
As far as Zin and turkey, I can think of few less appealing matches. If I found my guests preferring Zin with my turkey instead of pinot noir, I would stop serving the Zin not the pinot noir. I assure you your dinner companions will be very happy drinking the pinot and you won't be forced to drink Zin with turkey. The same goes when you are bringing the wine to someone else's house. Be kind to your own palate and bring the pinot.
Not that there is anything wrong with Zin, which I like, but not with turkey.
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Craig and Sneakeater, are you telling me that you've put a California or Oregon pinot on the table at the same time as a jammy zinfandel, for a group of non aficionados, and gotten more favorable reactions to the pinot than to the zin? Maybe the local palate here is different, but I just did this like a month ago and there was no contest. The wines were Nuthouse and Renwood. The meal was turkey but the preferences were well established before anybody ate anything. I was the only person in the room who preferred the pinot. I haven't found that people have any problem with high-alcohol wines, either. The closer to Port the better. I drink a lot of Oregon pinot noir -- more than I drink of any other wine -- but have pretty much stopped bringing it to people's houses because I find the zins, syrahs and things of that ilk are better received.
Yes, but the last two years I have lived in the Willamette Valley and they three years before that in Italy. Big, jammy wines are really not in style in Portland.
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Given jsmeeker's budget of $30, I don't know that he'd have been able to find a good, subtle, aged Bordeaux. And while a pinot noir like Bethel (the Estate bottling) would be a good choice for a group of wine aficionados (I'd go with Argyle Nuthouse, just a personal preference), I'm not sure I'd serve it to my family. I mean, I can pretty much guarantee you that if you take a bunch of Americans who like wine and good food but don't make a study of it, you're going to get stronger positive responses to Zinfandel with beef than to pinot noir. I've wasted several good bottles of pinot noir on that experiment, before and after Sideways.
I've never had this experience. I usually find that average wine drinkers wince at high alcohol wines. Also, if you combine Zinfandel with religion and politics at a dinner party you can end up with a food fight.
Why would you see Bethel Heights as something only for aficionados? I find it graceful, silky and seductive and a more layered wine than the Nuthouse, which is a charming wine to be sure.
You may not be able to find much AGED Bordeaux for $30, you can certainly find a lot of very nice subtle Bordeaux from current vintages within that budget.
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If I serve a pinot to that sort of group I'll get polite responses, but a jammy zinfandel is, in my experience, far far more likely to elicit raves.
That's the problem with hanging out with the wrong crowd.
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Indeed, a big wine like a Zinfandel might go well with the crusty end-cuts of a prime rib, but if you're going to have a subtly flavored rare, or medium rare inner slice, a subtle, delicate red wine would be the better choice, because the simplicity of the meat will let a wine with lots of understated interest shine through - for example, a Bordeaux with some good age to it, preferably one of the communes of the Haut Medoc - but at this point in time, you'd need to be in a reputable wine store that is knowledgeable in French wines, and tell them that you'd like a wine from one of the communes of the Haut Medoc that's had some aging, and you'd just have to trust them (unless you're really up on your vintages in that region, which it sounds like you may not be).
But in fact, when you approach this from the other side, as in "I have a bottle of '82 or '86 Bordeaux- what should I cook to serve it with?", you realize that something simple like the flavor of slow roasted rare beef is a perfect match for an older wine such as Bordeaux.
That's a great point. Simple dishes are the best for older wines and a classic aged Bordeaux would be excellent with prime rib. Robust wines need robust foods, and simply roasted beef is not such a dish. These big New World Zins and Syrahs need something equally assertive to compliment them.
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Not getting the bigger is better thing, I don't see Zin with prime rib, but as a better match for a big charred steak. Some of my suggestions would include:
A top California pinot noir like Alma Rosa
A Washington Cabernet like L'Ecole 41
An 03 Oregon pinot noir like Bethel Heights
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fwiw, cheval blanc's blend over the last several vintages according to parker reviews:
1994-50/50
1995-50/50
1996-more cab franc than merlot (no % given)
1997- 70% merlot 30% cab franc
1999- 59% merlot 41% cab franc
2000-53% merlot 47% cab franc
2001-60% merlot 40% cab franc
2002 50/50
2004 55% merlot 45% cab franc
2005-53% merlot 47% cab franc
According to Oxford Companion to Wine, Cheval Blanc is a 36 ha. vineyard planted to 66% cabernet franc, 33% merlot and 1% malbec.
It seems Jancis and Bob agree on one less thing. The cepage would certainly change from year to year, but they are either throwing out a lot of cabernet franc or someone's numbers are incorrect.
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Wow! A little light but strikingly delicious.
What a lovely compliment. However, if a wine is strikingly delicious why would you want it to be heavier - something that would certainly obliterate some of the nuances you found so delicious. Weight should be less important than being "strikingly delicious" as a great wine is only great at the table.
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btw- regarding Miles and Sideways, Cheval Blanc is a mainly merlot based wine..........
The predominate grape variety in Cheval Blanc is cabernet franc.
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N/V Cristalino, Cava Brut:
Fair bubbly without flaws but I wouldn’t buy it again.
Try it with a splash of Campari. It's great!
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A rich white or a light red. I just don't like oaky wines with the salty/sage flavors of this dish. For a white try a Greco di Tufo from Fuedi San Gregorio or a nice fresh Valpolicella like Speri for the red.
Craig,
I've acquired a couple of bottles of a Greco di Tufo (Terre degli Angeli, Terredora 2005). Not having had one before, what can I expect and how long should I keep them. Thanks
I would see no advantage to aging these wines and would drink them while young and fresh.
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There's an interesting story in today's Wall Street Journal about values in zinfandel. Check it out!
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thank you for your list chefboy. i'm going to try and find some of these and see how i like them.
however, is ridge making an under $20 zin? i used to buy them at that price point but haven't seen them below mid 20's and the most recent releases are well above that price.
Ridge zins run just over $20, but their 3 Valleys blend, which is mostly zinfandel, is under $20.
Have we become too "matchy"?
in Wine
Posted · Edited by Craig Camp (log)
"You're not being serious" is a fine way to continue a debate.
Compliments on your fine statistics, but I think you miss the point. As far as I can tell while the UK, Switzerland and Germany are clearly part of Europe, they are, as far I know, not part of Italy. The point I was trying to make is that the Italians don't drink much of their best wines, nor do the French.