torolover
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Posts posted by torolover
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Did you take any pictures of the meat before sous vide and after sous vide? Did you determine what kind of short ribs you cooked, despite the label on the package? Did it have a bone?
So does this confirm the enzyme that causes mealy meat doesn't exist at 60.5C?
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Now I'm curious...What if I put a marinade into the sous vide bag right after I take it out of the hot water bath. Then I let the sous vide meat rest for 15 min at room temperature. Will the meat absorb the marinade and the marinade will go INTO the meat?
If meat absorbs juices when resting, theoretically it should be absorbing the marinade as well right?
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In Modern Cuisine, after pressure cooking tough meat, they suggest to let the meat rest in it's liquid to absorb some of it's lost juice.
In traditional cooking, Chefs suggest letting braised meats cool down and rest in it's liquid to absorb some of it's lost juice.
Do you need to do this if you sous vide meats for long times?
For example, after I Sous Vide pork belly at 171F for 10 hours, should I let it rest at room temperature for 15 min.? Then when it cools, plunge it into an ice bath?
In the Fat Duck cookbook, Blumenthal suggest to let the Sous Vide meat rest for 15 min at room temperature. Then he suggest to let the meat rest for 15 min. in room temperature WATER. Then finally he suggests to cool it in an ice water bath.
The Manresa cookbook also suggests this.
Any new data to show wether this is necessary or not?
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I have some 72 hour ribs in the pot anovaing as we speak.
Be that as it may, I have started the ribs at 54 deg C, per an idea from Dave Arnold's blog.
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The pork shoulder I used was fresh. When I Sous Vide, I don't use salt or marinade. Like I mentioned before I understand if I use higher temps and lower times, the meat won't be mealy.
What I'm curious is the science behind it. Is the mealy texture caused by that enzyme? If that enzyme doesn't exist at temps over 140F, then theoretically if I sous vide at 145F for 72 hours, meat won't be mealy.
Any thoughts?
Thanks!
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I sous vide this pork shoulder for 72 hours at 140F with no salt or marinade. As you can see from the picture, the texture is mealy. It kind of has this grainy, dusty texture.
I know from experience if I want less "mealy" meat, I should only sous vide for 24 hours, or maybe 48 hours max. At higher temps it seems to be less mealy as well.
What causes this mealy texture? Is it the enzyme that Douglas Baldwin wrote about? "Moreover, the sarcoplasmic protein enzyme collagenase remains active below 140°F (60°C) and can significantly tenderize the meat if held for more than 6 hours (Tornberg, 2005)."
Does this mean the enzyme is only active at temps below 140F? So if I sous vide the pork shoulder at 145F instead of 140F, for 72 hours, it won't be mealy?
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Wow what a great site! Great recipes too! Love Egullet!
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I've always wondered about boneless short ribs. Whenever I sous vide boneless short ribs they are never as good as "true short ribs"
I stopped buying "true short ribs" because after you cut off the excess fat and the bone, you end up with only half the weight. At $7 a pound (meaning $14 a pound for just the meat) it's too expensive!
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Wow great more info about bones! Hmm, maybe pressure cooker is not best way to extract the best flavor for broth?
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What about Korean Ox Bone Soup? Surely there is some flavor from the extraordinarily long cooking process of those bones.
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Anyone still cooking with this book? I return to it regularly.
Tonight I made the pork sausage w/ rice cakes. A bunch of people ... somewhere--people suggested pan-frying them, as per the other dok recipe in the book--was the way to go. And random people on the internet must surely know better than David Chang. So that's what I did. Only I pan-fried them in wagyu fat instead of neutral oil.
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If I had to pick a source for where I found stock and broth tips when I first started cooking, I guess I would name Julia Child. Her basic rules seem to be to throw lots of meat and bones into water, add a bit of onion, carrot, whatever, simmer very low for several hours and don't cover the pot.
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btbird and dcarch, thanks for the great info!!
Now this make sense! I was thinking, if bones don't have collagen or flavor, what's the point? Now I understand that bones are mostly collagen.
I guess Ramen chefs were right to keep boiling the bones until they get lots of collagen and gelatin into their broths.
dcarch, I will try that, buy some beef tendon and pressure cook it! This will help make a really thick beef ramen soup!
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Bones have more collagen in them than a tough cut of meat does and they tend to be cheaper than meat. Most stock recipes that call for bones advise you to use bones that still have a fair bit of meat attached. If I can't find sufficiently meaty bones, I'll up the meat quotient by browning some ground meat and adding that to the pressure cooker/stock pot. Roasting bones before stockmaking will denature the proteins enough so that you don't have to blanch them. Blanching is a real pain... bring bones to a boil, drain, scrub, return to pot, and bring to a simmer? I'd rather not. It also brings out roasty flavor from the bones themselves that are hard to develop by just pan frying.
Thanks for the tips btbyrd!
Are you saying the bones itself has a lot of collagen? Or is the meat that is around the bone that has a lot of collagen?
I'm not sure it's cheaper to buy bones then simply buy meat. For example if you buy 16 ounce of of bones, for $1, and there is only 2 ounce of meat on the bones, you are actually paying $8 a pound for the meat! If the bones don't do anything, isn't it cheaper and better to simply buy meat that has a lot of collagen?
I'm curious because I'm trying to make the best thick ramen soup.
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I read an article from Serious Eats that bones don't have flavor. Is this true?
If bones don't have flavor why do people boil bones for stock? You can get gelatin from other sources of meat.
For example if you are looking looking to make pork stock, why not just pressure cook pork shoulder. Pork shoulder has lots of gelatin for body and meat for flavor.
Also why roast bones for sauces if bones have no flavor?
Ok, so there is some meat around the bones, but isn't it better to just to pan fry the meat for flavor?
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Norm, what a great website!! Great information!
According to Modernist Cuisine collagen can turn to gelatin even at low temperatures of 122F, it just takes a long time.
Gfweb, are you saying that gelatin in 140F 72 hours short ribs leak into the bag and doesn't stay in the meat? Are 185F 12 hours short ribs different? Those short ribs keep most of the gelatin in the meat?
I want to keep the temp at 140F to see if I can keep the moisture of medium rare short rib but still get the same amount of gelatin of a 185F 12 hour short rib.
How many hours would it take at 140F to the get the same amount of gelatin as the 185F 12 hour short ribs?
72 hours doesn't seem long enough.
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I understand at low temps it takes longer for collagen to turn to gelatin for tough cuts of meat.
I've recently compared short ribs cooked for 72 hours at 140F with short ribs cooked for 12 hours at 185F.
Why does the 12 hour short ribs still taste like it has more gelatin then the 72 hour short ribs?
I've noticed the same thing with pork belly as well.
If I want to convert ALL the collagen into gelatin at 140F, how many hours would it take?
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Wow, great blog! I'm learning so much on Egullet! Love it!!
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You said that you sous vide for 90 min at 127F? According to my Sous Vide Dash, the center of a 1.5 inch steak would only have been 122F after 90 min, which is pretty rare.
Perhaps that's why it was too soft? Perhaps that's also why you saw too much red liquid?
I often wondered why lots of recipes say to sous vide for 90 min for a 1.5 inch steak, when my Sous Vide Dash saids it will take over 3 hours? Is Sous Vide Dash wrong?
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I'd be far more worried about spoilage bacteria potentially getting into a crevice in the meat and causing off flavors.
I don't get why you would reheat in a 300F oven. By the time the inside is warm, the outside's going to be overcooked, like if you had just done it in the oven conventionally. Why not just start the sous vide a few hours later so you can go straight from the bath to the oven?
There are 2 reasons I would reheat in oven instead of sous vide before blasting in a 500F oven.
1. If I sous vide first, it would take 4 hours or more to get center to 130F. That would add another 4 or more hours to the danger zone. It's probably already been in danger zone for 8 hours when I sous vide the day before.
2. If I put in oven at 250F-300F, it would dry out the surface to get a good crust before I blast it at 500F. True the meat at surface would probably be 140F or so, but it probably isn't a big deal since the meat will already be falling apart from the long sous vide braise.
So you think I should just sous vide again and blast at 500F oven?
Am I'm too cautious about the safety for danger zone temps?
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What about dangers of sous vide a whole roast like Boston Butt? My plan is to sous vide a whole Boston Butt at 150F for 24 hours then quick chill and keep in fridge. I'll take out the next day and reheat in oven at 300F until center reaches 130F, then blast at 500F for 10 min to get a crust.
For Botulism, the meat will probably be between 50F to 120F for more then 10 hours in total! Probably will take more then 4 hours to reach 150F and then when I quick chill, another 4 hours to reach 40F. When I reheat probably another 1 hour to reach 120F. I assume internal meat is sterile, so I'm only concerned about the Botulism.
Any thoughts? I want to use the whole Boston Butt and not slice it thinner because it's for a party.
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Wow great info, thanks for all your help! I have another question regarding reheating and the danger zone temp.
I often sous vide a large batch of meat on Sunday and keep the meat in a cold fridge.
On weekday mornings I prepare my lunch with these sous vide meats. I usually cook fried rice and mix the sous vide meat into it. I prepare my lunch at 7am, and get to the office at 9am. Once I get to the office I put my lukewarm lunch into the fridge.
Then at 1pm I reheat my lunch in the microwave.
Am I safe to eat the lunch with the sous vide meat? It's probably been in that danger zone for 4 hours? What is the cut off time for eating safely when it's been in the danger zone temp?
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Interesting post! In Modern Cuisine they have a recipe for caramelized onions using a pressure cooker with canning jars and little baking soda. I tried it once and thought the traditional way of caramelizing onions produced a more complex and richer flavor.
I'll have to try the sous vide version to see if it's better then the pressure cooked version or traditional version.
Anyone else try the pressure cooker version?
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Thanks for the tips everyone! I think I understand the safety of sous vide food and how to store it safely.
I'm asking in theory. I thought Botulism has to be in an oxygen fee environment? If so:
1. If there is a little air in my zip lock bag, do I still have to worry about Botulism?
2. If I open the bag periodically while the meat is sous vide, do I still have to worry about Botulism?
"Off-label" Uses for Ramen Noodles
in Cooking
Posted
Luckypeach.com has lots of recipes using ramen noodles. David Chang makes Gnocci from ramen noodels, Cacio e pepe with ramen noodles, egg omelette with ramen seasoning, and the list goes on..