torolover
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Posts posted by torolover
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5 hours ago, Duvel said:
A multilevel question, touching some very fundamental issues.
If you place a of meat into a watery liquid, it will undergo an equilibrium process. The cells in the tissue will slowly equilibrate their sodium chloride (and others) concentration with the surrounding aqueous solution in a passive way. Increasing the temperature will facilitate/speed up the process (as does physical damage to the cells). Along with the flux of water other (flavor relevant) compounds tag along, especially when cell integrity is impaired. You can call this process leaching.
If you braise your meat in a salted stock, chances are that the flux of water goes from the piece from the meat towards the surrounding liquid. If you braise your meat in water, flux will be directed into the meat, leading to a dilution of flavor and possibly leaching of cellular liquid into the surrounding stock. You are not interested in either.
I understand salt can travel through the meat, but this article shows that marinating meat only penetrates the meat a few millimeters.
They did a taste test with chicken that was marinated vs non marinated. They cut off a few millimeters on the surface of the cooked marinated chicken, and the panel could not tell the difference in taste between the marinated cooked chicken and non marinated cooked chicken!
This is why I'm taking it one step further and thinking that braising in stock vs braising in water will make no difference as long as you pour sauce on the meat after its cooked.
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2 hours ago, KennethT said:
Braising in water won't make the meat watery, but the meat will leach flavor into the braising liquid. You're basically making a stock with your braise.
If I braise in water, let's say theoretically 30 grams of chicken juice leech into the water (I just made up a number to simplify).
If I braise in chicken stock, wouldn't 30 grams of chicken juice also leech out and go into the chicken stock? I thought it was heat and time that determines how much chicken juice is lost, not what's surrounding the chicken?
If marinades can only penetrate a few millimeters into the chicken, doesn't that also mean chicken stock can only penetrate a few millimeters into the chicken?
and if chicken stock can only penetrate a few millimeters into the chicken, doesn't that mean water can only penetrate a few millimeters into the chicken?
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Traditionally you braise tough meats like pork shoulder or short ribs in stock and aromatics at low heat for 4-8 hours. Then you let it sit overnight in fridge, and the next day you can reheat the meat and reduce the stock to make a sauce.
What if I braised the meat with just water? Will the water penetrate the meat and make the meat more "watery" tasting?
I read that marinades don't penetrate meat more than a few millimeters no matter how long the meat has been marinading. If that's true, then doesn't that mean water can't penetrate the meat by more than a few millimeters while I'm braising?
My idea is to braise meat with simply water. While it's braising, I can make a separate concentrated sauce.
After the meat has been fully braised, I can take the meat out from the water and place it it in a new container. Then I can pour some of my concentrated sauce over the meat. The next morning I can reheat the meat with the sauce.
Will the interior of this meat taste more watery compared to a traditional braised meat?
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So I did another test.
I braised my short ribs in a 250F oven. After 1 hour I checked the temp of the braising liquid and it was 210-212F!
I braised my short ribs in a 200F oven. After 1 hour, I checked the temp of the braising liquid and it was 195F. After 3 hours, the temp of the braising liquid was still 195F.
So if you really want to braise low and slow, it needs to be done at 200F oven or lower. Otherwise braising in a 250F oven is the same slow boiling the short ribs on a stovetop.
Please note, this is assuming that the ribs are completely submerged in stock/braising liquid, and you get the stock to a boil, before you put into the oven.
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16 hours ago, gfweb said:
Great questions.
Water can't get hotter than 212f so a lid wont raise the temp. It will keep water from evaporating though .
A basic method is to put a layer of carrots and onions on the bottom of the pot along with a couple cloves of smashed garlic. Put in red wine to cover halfway up the meat and whisk in 2 tbsp of tomato paste. Salt and pepper.
I might add a little bit of cinnamon or 5-spice
Cover it and put in a 300F oven and ignore it for 2 hours. Then turn the meat over and give it another hour or so. Remove t he meat and take the liquid and remove the fat...perhaps then thicken with starch and serve with the braised veg.
Thanks for the tips gfweb!
I'm still confused why some recipes ask for 275F or some ask for 350F.
Let's assume the recipes ask for the meat to be completely covered with liquid/stock. Get the pot to reach a boil on the stove, and then put into the oven.
If I use a 275F oven the liquid reaches 210F or closet to boiling point.
If I use a 350F oven, the liquid will also reach 210F or close to boiling point.
In both cases the meat should cook about the same time, since the meat is being cooked at the same 210F liquid.
Am I missing something?
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I know some recipes braise short ribs in a 350F oven, and some recipes braise in a 275F oven.
I understand that some recipes recommend 275F so the liquid and meat will cook at a lower temp. This way the meat will stay juicier, although it will take longer to braise.
I tried braising the short ribs with veggies and water at 275F. I checked the temp of the liquid after 1 hour, and I noticed it was about 210F! This is almost boiling.
Is this normal?
I thought the point of cooking at 275F instead of 350F is to keep the liquid at a lower temperature than boiling. Does 210F seems too hot?
Also some recipes ask to cover the pot with lid, some with no lid, and some with parchment paper with a hole in the middle.
I know the reason for adding the lid is to prevent the water from evaporating too much, but doesn't the lid also make the water too hot?
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23 hours ago, cdh said:
Could you explain your proposed alternative? "Just sous vide in water" sounds like you intend to ditch the bag and just poach stuff at low temps? THAT is a recipe for foodborne illness... you're culturing everything in the air in your kitchen that happens to land in the pot full of growth medium at the right temp for bacterial growth.
I have a Sous Vide Supreme. I was thinking of "Sous Vide" the meats without bags in the Sous Vide Supreme with just water. The Sous Vide Supreme has a cover, though it's not perfectly air tight.
I would do Chicken Breasts at 141F for 2 hours, Chicken thighs at 165F for 2 hours, and Pork Shoulder at 156F for 24 hours. Then I would freeze them for future use.
Do you think this is dangerous?
Thanks for all the helpful thoughts everyone!
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From Bonappetit:
"The reason they're not necessarily “good” plastics is because a 2011 study found that when some were heated, these plastics —in fact, most plastics on the market, including those advertised as BPA free—release non-BPA chemicals that disrupt hormone activity. The amount of chemicals released, however, is unknown.
There currently aren’t any published studies specifically focused on the migration of chemicals in sous vide conditions, so you should sous vide only if you’re comfortable with the gray area surrounding the effect of chemicals in non-BPA plastics."
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Hi everyone,
I have been eating Sous Vide meats (mostly chicken) almost every day for about 10 years.
Now that I'm getting older, I've been thinking about the safety of the Ziplock freezer bags.
Is the plastic in the Ziplock freezer bags safe for Sous Vide?
I usually portion out 6 pounds of meat, Sous Vide them in Ziplock bags, and then freeze them. I usually Sous Vide chicken 165F for 1-2 hours. I also Sous Vide pork shoulder and pork ribs for 24 hours.
I understand once in a while it may not be a big deal, but I eat Sous Vide meats almost every day!
Perhaps to be safe I should just Sous Vide in water?
What are your thoughts?
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I'm thinking of making Korean Spicy Chicken but sous vide all the ingredients in 1 ziplock.
I will put chicken thigh, onions, garlic, soy sauce, Kochujung, sugar, and potatoes and Sous vide for 165 for 1 hour.
I know the chicken thigh will be good, but will the onions and potatoes give an off flavor? I'm guessing 165F is too low for onion and potatoes.
Any thoughts?
Thanks!
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Do clay pots or even la creuset cast iron pots really add "flavor" to food? or is this a myth? Can't Sous Vide make the same flavor?
For example I know Sous Vide Duck "Confit" has the same flavor as Duck Confit cooked the traditional way.
Thanks!
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38 minutes ago, cdh said:
Ummm... how do you propose to add these liquids to your pouch? Most of us have vacuum sealers that don't seal liquids well. I wonder how many people here have the equipment to try your experiment... chamber vac units ain't inexpensive. And moisture loss is more a function of target temperature than environment... read the Serious Eats SV chicken page.
I use a Ziplock, and use the under water displacement method.
I believe it's quite common?
Thanks!
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Let's say I sous vide chicken thighs at 165F for 3 hours in 3 different ways.
#1 Sous vide with nothing in the pouch. (I use Ziplock and the underwater displacement method).
#2 Sous Vide with Chicken stock (no salt) in the pouch
#3 Sous Vide with Water in the pouch
Would # 1 chicken loose less moisture then #2 or #3 because it has less liquids to dilute the chicken?
Would # 2 loose less moisture then #3 because chicken stock has some chicken "juice" which can go back into the chicken?
or Would all three chicken samples loose the same moisture, because whatever surrounds the chicken doesn't affect moisture loss.
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I plan to Sous Vide Short Ribs for 48 hours at 140F, rapidly chill it, and put it in the fridge.
I plan to reheat it to 140F and serve it for Christmas Dinner. If I have leftovers, can I simply put the short ribs back in the fridge? Then can I reheat it the next day, or even 2 days later and eat it safely?
I read that C. botulinum grows between 50F and 118F and can only grow in the absence of oxygen. Since I opened the bag before dinner, does that mean I don't have to worry about Botulinum growing anymore? The whole Botulinum growth is confusing.
Thanks!
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Here are newer articles that say it's not safe. So confusing!
https://www.drweil.com/health-wellness/balanced-living/healthy-living/is-plastic-wrap-safe/
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I have read about frying herbs using oil and plastic wrap in the microwave. I'm concerned about the plastic wrap being toxic at high temps.
What temp is plastic wrap toxic?
I often cook white rice in the rice cooker and when it's done, I immediately put the hot rice in plastic wrap and wrap it up tightly. Is this OK? Internal temp must be at least 212 from the steam.
The plastic wrap I use is Costo Kirkland Stretch-tite brand.
Thanks for the input!
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I have some raw Foie Gras and Bone Marrow in my freezer.
How long does it keep in the freezer?
I have some from 5 months ago!
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I don't know if the short time is the cause for the off taste. Maybe you had bad garlic?
MC has a recipe for Fish stock which they sous vide with garlic for only 1.25 hours. They use garlic, onions, fennel, and other veggies at 80C for 1.25 hours. Why would they put garlic in the recipe if garlic would taste bad?
Anyone else experience bad garlic taste during sous vide?
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Modernist Cuisine and Anova has a recipe for Sous Vide Garlic at 190F for 7 hours. Just Garlic and Olive oil.
Why would MC and Anova give this recipe if garlic would taste off?
Have other people used garlic and onions during Sous Vide? Anyone else notice off taste?
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I have sous vide chicken thighs with thinly sliced raw garlic for 6 hours at 150F and haven't noticed an acrid or off taste.
Have other member's noticed bad garlic taste when sous vide with meat?
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Why not get the best of both worlds and use 2 pots?
In one pot, prepare the pasta by boiling in lots of water.
In another pot or saucepan, prepare the thick "pasta water" by boiling a little pasta with very little water. This saucepan will now have the thick "pasta water" that you are looking for.
Simply add the thick "pasta water" to whatever sauce you want, and then add the sauce to the pasta!
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What is the cheapest wine brand you recommend for cooking Bolognese sauce or Beef Bourguignon?
I know they say you should only cook with wine you would drink, but anyone has some good brand recs that's not too expensive?
What do you think about Trader's Joes Charles Shaw Wine? Good to cook with?
Thanks!
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One trick I use when making Ramen stock is I put fat and stock into a blender and blend on high. The fat emulsifies into the stock.
Next time you sous vide stock, how about not adding any water? The stock will be pure chicken essence!
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20 hours ago, Paul Fink said:
I'm one of those that would say 'taint BBQ" The smoke makes the Q not the sauce.
I don't use any sauce on my ribs. Just a rub and a glaze.
You had me all fired up to talk BBQ and then you shot me down with "Sous Vide Pork Ribs"
Oh well can I ask a question? The art of smoking ribs is to balance the times & temps so the fat gets
rendered off and you get a good smoky bark. Does Sous Vide render off the fat? Do you sear them in an oven?
I guess that was two questions I'm not trying to bash your post. The questions are genuine.
I live a small apt and don't have a smoker or grill. I'm hoping to come close to replicating a real BBQ. Modernist Cuisine believe that ribs that are cold smoked and then sous vide are superior then to traditionally smoked ribs at high temperatures.
I sous vide my St. Louis Ribs at 160F for 18 hours. The ribs are super tender, but still not to the point where they disintegrate when you bite them. I believe they are more juicy then traditionally smoked ribs because the lower temps keep them moist.
At 18 hours a lot of fat has rendered and the fat becomes really soft.
I've been experimenting with how to form a bark. After I sous vide them, I tried torching them with my Searzall for a crust. I've also tried broiling them in the oven. To give a smokey flavor I render fat from Benton's Bacon, and glaze it to the ribs for the finish.
Any tips?
Braising in stock vs water, no difference?!
in Cooking
Posted · Edited by torolover (log)
Wow, this is just what I'm looking for! Thanks!