turbocooker

Here is where we part ways, turbocooker. I would argue that the evidence is unequivocal that fancy attractive advertising can achieve almost anything. For example: Do you know why we have the custom of giving a diamond engagement ring? This is not a particularly old practice or traditional custom. Why is it considered de rigueur today? It is all due to the advertising and promotional efforts of one company: De Beers. If you've ever shopped for a diamond engagement ring (something I have had occasion to within the past 3 years) you will note that the "conventional wisdom" is to spend the equivalent of two to three months' salary. Where did this "conventional wisdom" come from? De Beers. So, let's be real here. You can't tell me that if fancy advertising can convince plenty of people to drop ten thousand dollars or more on an engagement ring, it can't convince people to spend 200 bucks on a straight gauge saucepan when they could do just as well for 40 dollars. I would also dispute that there are plenty of "All-Clad skeptics-turned-loyalists" out there, if they were ever indeed truly skeptics with any basis for being skeptical. And, I should hasten to point out, no one here has ever said that All-Clad cookware isn't very good cookware. Indeed, it is perfectly good cookware. I have some pieces of All-Clad that I got either for free or at a ridiculous loss-leader discount, and I use it on a regular basis. I used one of my 1-quart All-Clad stainless saucepans last night, in fact. The issue is not whether All-Clad cookware is good. The issue is whether it is worth the money. In my opinion, if you can get three equally-good saucepans from another manufacturer for the price of two All-Clad saucepans, then there is no way it's worth the money. For other people, the satisfaction they get out of buying into the marketing and believing that they have "the best" makes it worth more to have the two All-Clad pans. And for still other people, money is no object and they just like the look and feel. These are all legitimate reasons to make a purchasing decision. The bottom line is that you have to be happy with what you have. Significant side-issues are whether and to what extent All-Clad's promotional claims are true, and for you personally, whether this new "Brushed Stainless" line would offer superior performance when used with induction. There are two ways to look at these issues, and you and I are taking opposing approaches. My approach is to be skeptical and look for ways All-Clad can "prove" that this design would be better. Your approach appears to be to believe All-Clad's claims and look for things that support this belief. Short of some kind of tightly-controlled scientific experiment, it's unlikely that this question can be resolved definitively. But we can look at the specifications and consider them in light of what we know about induction. Induction works in a fundamentally different way from regular heat. Thermal conductivity is not nearly as much of an issue with induction. So, to make an example, if we have a carbon steel frypan on a gas burner, we can expect that there will be some hot spots due to the fact that carbon steel does not have very good thermal conductivity and the gas burner heats the pan much more in the middle than it does out at the sides. If we put that same pan on an induction burner, however, the heat will be perfectly even. Why? Because the whole surface of the pan is being acted upon by the magnetic field, and therefore the whole surface of the pan will heat up evenly. In addition, heat capacity is less important for cookware used on induction as well. If the magnetic field is keeping the surface of the pan at 250 degrees and you throw in a bunch of chicken, you're not going to get the kind of temperature drop you would get with a gas burner because the magnetic field will continue to affect the metal to the same extent regardless. This all suggests that there is a rather more limited need for thermal material (usually aluminum) to spread the heat around and provide heat capacity -- which is the exact opposite of what we would like to have when we use a standard conductive heat source. So, for example, that carbon steel frypan I mentioned above? Considering that the thermal material is entirely ferromagnetic, we would expect this pan to outperform a pan made with a thin layer of ferromagnetic material and a thick layer of thermal material. Of course, carbon steel is somewhat reactive. So perhaps we might like to have carbon steel clad in a thin layer of stainless steel. As I said above, Mauviel used to make exactly this. People loved it, but it never really caught on and they discontinued the line. If you have a chance to find some Mauviel Induc'Inox, I strongly suggest you acquire some. The reason Induc'Inox didn't catch on is because the market for truly induction-optimized cookware isn't large enough for a manufacturer to devote the production, distribution and marketing costs associated with a line specifically designed with induction in mind. Perhaps as the induction market grows, demand will grow and we will see more of this sort of thing (and, as Steven points out, it is also likely that induction technology will evolve to the point where ferromagnetic metal is not a requirement). It is also true that "standard" fully-clad cookware with an external layer of ferromagnetic steel seems to work perfectly well with induction, if perhaps not quite as well as Induc'Inox did. The result of all this is that most manufacturers have taken to designing cookware with standard heat in mind, and have added a ferromagnetic external layer for compatibility with induction. The reality for induction users, however, is that many of the things which distinguish better cookware with respect to standard conductive heat sources do not apply where induction is concerned. As I mentioned above, one would expect a carbon steel pan to outperform a clad aluminum pan on induction. Might an extra internal layer of ferromagnetic stainless steel provide some kind of benefit on induction? Sure. Maybe. But whether or not these pans will meaningfully outperform something like Kitchenaid Gourmet Essentials Stainless on induction for a fraction of the price? Maybe. Probably? But it's unlikely the difference will be meaningful. The thing is, because of the way induction works, you don't need to spend nearly as much money on cookware as you do with standard conductive heat. So, as I see it, you have three choices: 1. You can get "hybrid" cookware that is fundamentally designed to be used over standard heat, either spending big money on something with a minor extra bell and whistle for induction (this would be All-Clad Brushed Stainless) or something that is a fraction of the cost and should perform similarly (e.g., KitchenAid, etc.). or 2. You can buy cookware specifically designed for use with induction, which at this point means scouring the Internet for Induc'Inox. or 3. You can wait until you buy your induction cooktop and see (i) where the technology is at the time, and (ii) what cookware lines are available at the time. But, you know... if you're convinced that All-Clad is the best and that their Brushed Stainless line is truly the superior choice for induction, and you believe the performance on induction will be superior to an extent that would justify paying the same price for a single frypan that you might pay for an entire 10-piece set of KitchenAid or some other similar induction-compatible line -- then that is what you should do. It's not what I would do, but all I do here is give advice. I always say that the most important thing is that you're happy with your cookware, and there are lots of different reasons to be happy. ← Excellent Post! Thanks and I'd argue I agree with most of what you wrote here ... except two specific things ... first no reason whatsoever to "part ways"; remember I'm just here trying to learn and I'm learning a lot from you and from other folks here and as I've made the mention several sincere times so far, I very much appreciate all the awesome advice here starting with the "Understanding Stovetop Cookware" thread, which was wonderful, sincerely. ...second I'm not as you wrote trying to "believe All-Clad's claims and look for things that support this belief"; it is the opposite actually ... I'm really just asking, reading and studying everything that I can on this line, on other than this line and EVEN on other than this brand believe it or not. IOW, my whole purpose for asking you folks what you think is to sincerely ask you what you think. No concealed agenda here; I'm an amateur asking the experts and you are indeed an expert as far as all my lurking and reading here reveals. I guess I got the preconceived thought going that someone here, or perhaps several someones here even better, had actually experienced these particular pans and could comprehensively say from experience how they compared to others. As I wrote, it is "no fault and no foul" that no one here has had that back-to-back comparison, it simply is what it is, no fault and no foul. I guess I also got the afterconceived thought going that for whatever weird reason there is some sort of animosity towards All-Clad that stages the suspicions I've read ... the "prove it perspective" as you made a mention of ... even that is no fault and no foul to an extent but, honestly and humbly, it doesn't do anything at all to answer my questions about this product. That's all I'm saying here, really, that's all I'm saying. Perhaps it would help to have some insight into why I am so sweet for All-Clad (aside from it being a long-lasting, successful, stable, American company that can probably support my cookware needs really well for really long) just so I can accuse myself oppositely of yourself. Keep in mind I'm an amateur so some experts here will read this and think "duh" ... but up until recently almost all my cookware was the old original Calphalon I purchased just prior to finishing university. I did some pseudo scientific research at the time, way back when, and long-story-short decided that as a material I couldn't beat Aluminum, and that as a thickness I couldn't beat Calphalon and that as an added safety measure I couldn't beat the hard anodized aluminum. Okay. Fast forward many years and I got interested in Moroccan cooking. This followed several exploratory phases through the years of Mexican, then Caribbean, then Spanish (significantly different from Mexican BTW) then Indian (down to different regions as much as I was able to accomplish) then Chinese ( a bastardized and brief attempt really) cooking where Calphalon was my mainstay cookware. I was always more than satisfied except for the warping issues with the pans and "learned" to use these pans pretty well (stated only as a pretty proud amateur). THEN, after cracking a clay Tagine, I got the All-Clad Tagine for making my Moroccan food and absolutely fell in love with what I could do with that cooking tool. It was astounding to me the responsiveness and efficiency and evenness of that "pan" at least as I limitedly could compare to other things. I then used a couple of Copper-Core pans from a friend one day and was to sound as mushy as possible, head-over-heels. This really spurred my interest in replacing my Calphalon with All-Clad, trying now to purchase that "life-long set of stuff" that I did with my Calphalon way back when and sort of start over now without a redo later. So I started reading as much as I could find from forums around the web and happened upon the truly terrific write up with understanding stovetop cookware ... now several weeks later I'm recounting my steps and trying again to simply say that as an amateur I'm looking for answers and while I appreciate to an extent the "prove it perspective", I also am not getting anywhere with it. That's all, that's truly all. I'm just looking for someone such as yourself who has had experience with these particular pans, and can share that specific and experiential knowledge ... I'm not at all convinced about anything regarding these particular pans as I too have NO experience with them ... and just as with yourself I'm not willing to JUST read the adverts and basically believe everything in them ... that's why I'm here after all. Thanks.

Excellent post Fat Boy (I hope that's truly a compliment). I absolutely agree that at some point this technology will extend past ferrous, but, for right now it is limited to this type of magnetic field/magnetic material and for right now, because this works so well on ferrous materials, there is inherently less development towards delivering induction cooking in other types of materials. Not to say that it won't happen within twenty years but I'm basically ready to invest in cookware now and as much as possible I'd like whatever I invest in now to last a lifetime. That to some sensible extent mitigates the cost concerns per piece for me too. Again I'm most likely investing in induction cooktops sooner than the twenty year time frame that's been suggested but I do agree about not necessarily getting something specific now solely for that purpose then. However if I can accomplish both in the process of purchasing these pans now, all the better, and on most of the induction cooking communities I've reviewed online the overall consensus was that the regular All-Clad Stainless worked really well on induction. IF, please note the large IF as an offer of peace-pipe for the skeptics, the Brushed Stainless is any better than the Regular Stainless on any or all cooktops, as advertised, I'm sure I'll be much more than perfectly pleased. After all, fancy attractive advertising can only accomplish so much in terms of the public's perception of these things and All-Clad "skeptics-turned-loyalists" are aplenty out there online. What I was hoping for here was some experiential knowledge of these pans comprehensively compared to other pans and it is clear that isn't going to happen ... no fault and no foul of course; you can't know what you haven't experienced. But only humbly offered as a suggestion / statement of the obvious, as the person/poster asking these questions about these pans I cannot answer the skeptics' skeptical thoughts; I can only move on searching for an answer or an experience. Please trust that if I find that answer I'll share it as objectively as possible for folks here. Thanks.

A few thoughts: 1. Says who that the middle-most layer is magnetic stainless steel? If All-Clad says that the middle-most layer is steel, are you sure they don't say carbon steel or magnetic steel and not stainless steel? 2. I am no expert on induction, but I'm not sure how much better I think this would work -- if at all. 3. I am quite sure that the reason they advertise it as "optimized" for anything at all is so that they can entice people into paying a lot more money for it. The only way to find this out for sure is to get the manufacturer to give up the specs (fat chance of that), or use a high resolution photograph (cut one in half on a band saw?). Given what we know about All-Clad's stainless layers on their other pieces -- i.e., that it tends to be around 0.45 mm in thickness -- it sounds reasonable that any extra thickness would be contributed by an extra internal layer of magnetic steel. This would, I should hasten to point out, increase the thermal capacity of the pan (good) but also decrease the overall thermal conductivity over a regular heat source (bad). I think it's waste of time and money to buy super-expensive cookware on the premise that you might want to use an induction cooktop 20+ years from now. But to each his own. ← Again thanks for the advice, I really appreciate it, as I've been subscribing to this thread I've also been all over the rest of the site and am so impressed with it! It was All-Clad's Customer Service/Technical Service section that told me that the middle layer was "magnetic stainless steel". They did not specifically make any mention about that additional layer affecting the induction technology specifically, just that it is indeed magnetic stainless steel. They do specifically make a mention that this line is optimum for induction - so without spelling out all the additive effects of each material, they definitely do mention that. My research so far suggests that the magnetic field from an induction stovetop will reach within the whole thickness of the pan so I'm thinking that two layers responding directly to that force are better than one however that is totally guesswork on my part. Whether the effect is partial, full, exponential, I cannot say at this time however I think that I can say, all other things equal, having the additional aluminum to transfer the heat is a positive performance enhancer on all cooktops. I'm sure just as with any successful advertising strategy they mention this as an attempt at enticing future purchases from people. I don't see anything wrong with that as long as it is truthful. Somewhere along the line there almost seems some animosity about All-Clad's success or perhaps how proud they are of their offerings, aka All-Clad's price. I'm trying to avoid all that in this discussion (other than that I do want to invest in a company that is successful and sound for future support/service as well as adding matchings to this present purchase) and stick strictly to the performance perspectives. Maybe I misrepresented when I was saying that I think I'll be using induction in thirty-plus years. Yes I think that this will be the way of the future then, and yes I think/hope I'll personally be using these terrific pans for thirty-plus, probably fifity-plus, more years but what I was trying to say is that our "next" stovetop will probably be induction. IOW within possibly a few to five years, we will have induction. With that in mind, and with the fact that quality cookware should last several decades, if not several generations, I think the investment is only sound if you get a good long useful life out of it. That's what I'm trying to do by getting great products now from a great company now that will still be strong then. Thanks again for all the advice.

Understood, and thanks for the advice as always. Apparently in this case the middle-most layer is also magnetic stainless steel (outermost to innermost = magnetic stainless, aluminum, magnetic stainless, aluminum, 18/10 stainless). Would that make for more "penetration" of magnetic field allowing for more "performance" from the pan on an induction stovetop??? Perhaps this is the reason for the additional advertisement of optimized for induction? The way the eye sees it is three thin layers of SS and two thick layers of Aluminum. I'd say though that the extra thickness of the Brushed Series is more than simply the sum of three SS layers; IOW, the two Aluminum layers laid together would also be thicker than the one Aluminum layer of the Regular Series ... those two thicker layers of Al plus the third layer of SS make up that .45 to .55 mm difference in thickness. As I'm trying to imagine investing in something specifically setup for whatever future cooktops offer, I cannot imagine eliminating something able to use this incredibly improved induction technology; I think we will get to the day in the next thirty years (easily in the realistic realm of when I'll still be using these things) when induction is "the thing". So along with what I want to purchase to learn on and stay with I think I should specificly look for things that also allow this technology. Thoughts? Thanks.

Okay, that makes more than perfect sense. I took a mechanical micrometer into WS first thing today, it is in increments of .5 mm and I could clearly see that the Brushed Stainless Steel Series is approximately .45 to .55mm thicker than the Regular Stainless Steel. How meaningful that is from a perceivable performance perspective I cannot conclude but it is clearly thicker. I'd love to learn the forum's thoughts on this given the thicker gauge. Another interesting advertisement regarding this Brushed Series is that its "optimized for induction" meaning that it is highly magnetic. I tested this too with a small magnet and sure enough sensed a strong magnetic attraction between these pans and the magnet. I could not tell that there was a major magnetic difference between the Brushed Series and the Regular Series though just by pulling the magnet off the two pans by hand (very unscientific method, I know). I was however surprised that the magnet even slightly stuck to the Copper-Core pans which I thought were not able to be used with induction??? I'm still completely confused by that one but anyway "induction-ready" is important as it is probably the next type of cooktop we get. Again I'd love to learn the forum's thoughts on this. Thanks Again, It Is Much Appreciated. TC

Wow what an amazing analysis on stovetop cookware! Thank you so sincerely for taking the time to do that, I learned so much and I also realized I have so much more to learn (funny how that works huh?). After reading eGCI's post I read most all of the twenty other pages on stovetop cookware and I'm hoping that my question hasn't been asked before. If it has, I'm sorry I missed it and if someone could please provide a link, I'll take it from there. Anyway... I'm interested in the All-Clad Brushed Stainless Steel Series that is currently offered only at Williams & Sonoma. I understand that it is 5 plies of Aluminum and Stainless Steel vs. the 3 plies of the regular All-Clad Stainless. I've read everything that I can concerning this series' performance and what I've read so far seems to suggest that these pans are slightly more durable, more even and more responsive than the 3 ply variant. I'd love to learn from the folks here if that is true and if there are any other thoughts about this series. Thanks.