evo-lution

Sorry, I think my link confused you. I wasn't clear if you were talking about oils in that regard. There are a number of essential oils that are safe for consumption that could theoretically be used in bitters for example. There are a great number of bitters (and liqueur) recipes calling for oils of this type.

I haven't? That's interesting. Are you speaking of oils in this regard - http://www.baldwins.co.uk/Essential-Oils/Essential-Oils/344 - ?

Chiming in a little late here but if you can get your hands on them I recommend Valrhona Grue De Cacao (cocoa nibs). Possibly a little pricier but worth parting with the extra coin if that's the case.

If you had read through, and/or at least tried what I suggested, those obvious reasons may just have made a little more sense instead of working on assumption. The only reason the debate went across three pages was because of this. "What I assume," versus "What I've tried." Not really interested in going over it again. I'm not sure how you've established that my comment was based on emotion and not through reasoning, I've spoken on this subject many times before having tried a number of tobacco infusions made by various people, not one of which tasted any good. The specific reason I mentioned cigarettes is because, for the most part, the taste they offer is not one I'd want transferred into a drink. Cigars yes, but I'd take a real cigar on the side any day of the week. I used to smoke, and every so often still have the occasional cigar, so can completely understand why someone would like to add some of that flavour however there's an obvious flaw in what's happening, burning tobacco and cold-compounded tobacco are two wildly different beasts. If it's the flavour of loose-leaf tobacco that someone is after, there's a host of ways they could do that because, as you point out, many spirits/botanicals/etc. have a tobacco note. Should you want tobacco aromatics without the inherent dangers then I see no reason why anyone would look further than Perique at this moment in time.

Now that absinthe is more widely available, drop the Pernod and go with the real deal. Makes for a vastly superior beverage in my humble opinion.

I'm going to assume you didn't try, as it seems you didn't read the pages prior as well. The discussion started in reference to diluting bitters to a specific bottling strength, the effect adding water/altering abv will have on the flavour, and the methods employed when adding water to dilute the original maceration. That's about it really... It's crazy how many bars/bartenders are still preparing tobacco infusions even though advice such as Darcy's has been widely circulated. Even crazier how many wish to extract the flavour of cigarettes?!?

Would ultimately depend on your base spirit. Are those all the bitters you have (Ango, Fee Orange, Fee Aztec, Peychaud's) and are you keen only on rye/bourbon Old Fashioneds?

Thanks for chiming in Nick. I would imagine most would look further than a headline however, there does appear to be some correlation between what is suggested in the headline even if it has maybe been written to grab attention. In this instance, the main reason I've expanded the debate on here and on Facebook to some degree as it sits with something I've long suspected and can only base on personal experiences (from both sides of the pine and in a host of different settings) some of which I mention above. It's really interesting and I'd love to find out more about it.

Yeah, it was shared from my page, the discussion in his comments was mostly with myself.

I understand what you're suggesting and agree to a point however a real bar scene will vary dependent on a host of variables. For example it's not always the case that bars play music, and some people go to bars for the peace and quiet and don't speak to anyone, all they have is their own thoughts and their drink in hand. As another example, there's a wee pub next to my house where if I was to go early enough in the day (on an early day in the week) I could practically guarantee I'd be the only person there with little-to-no sound. As I touched upon there are so many environments and considerations to be made that it's something which requires a lot more research. Very interesting, even if it's solely discussing the strength aspect...

Absolutely, I touched on that in the OP along with the point regarding other factors that have to be taken into account, but in this instance it's more to do with the fact that there's little, if anything, that's been carried out regarding alcohol and its surroundings, first and foremost with taste but secondly with the added factor of inebriation*. Hopefully someone may be interested in picking up on this and carrying out some further research which either confirms or refute my suspicion. *in respect of how people feel the effect of alcohol dependent on their enviroment I disagree with that, it definitely applies.

I've long suspected that noise levels of music (and other distractions) have a huge effect on an individual's perception of how a drink tastes and an article that's just landed in my inbox somewhat confirms my suspicions. I understand that there has been some research by the likes of Blumenthal/Adria/et al on the food side of things however nothing I'm aware of related to alcohol and noise levels. My original hunch came as someone who regularly mixes, and consumes, drinks in a number of different enviroments. As a (now only occasional) working bartender, beverage producer, consultant/trainer and event organiser, as well as regular frequenter of many establishments, I always found it staggering how different the same recipe made with the same ingredients would be perceived dependent on the enviroment. My original suspicion came due to how different a double shot & mixer, or an Old Fashioned for example, would taste in a loud bar enviroment versus making it home as, let's say, a quiet nightcap. The latter always taste much stronger to me even though they are being prepared identically. There's clearly a host of factors to take into account but from my own experiences I've always believed it, so much so that I had written a piece on it that I'd always intended to upload to my webpage but never gotten round to until I had researched it in a bit more depth. The full piece can be read at the following link in the latest issue of CLASS Digital; http://www.diffordsguide.com/class-magazine/read-online/en/2012-01-03/page-4/noisy-bars

Right...

I do wonder if you have read anything that's been said, it seems apparent to me that you haven't because all I see is repeated assumption, and/or speculation, based on things that weren't posted. Very odd. What I said in posts 840, 842 and 844 (and following) stands. Now read what was said there, and then read your post #845. If you'd taken the time to maybe ask me to qualify what I was saying instead of the usual lecture post which had no relevance to what was said previously (as I point out at the beginning of post 847) this wouldn't have went over three pages. Post #851 may also be of some help with regards what I've been saying. Anyway, as much fun as this conversation has been...

Yes. You may have missed this bit; "...still hasn't carried out anything vaguely resembling what is being discussed."

Not once have I said that only the abv is important (though ultimately the final abv is the deciding factor in the strength/taste of a product, in this instance bitters, following their initial production stage). What I have said is the same product (as originally produced) diluted to two differing abvs will taste differently, as each abv has its own profile. You've agreed with this so we can move on from that... It is quite incredible that someone, who admittedly still hasn't carried out anything vaguely resembling what is being discussed, can be so sure of something even though there are numerous quotes from yourselves that contradict what you've been saying and agree with the original point I've been making throughout. Even in the last couple of posts, you've contradicted yourself to ridiculous extremes, also making embarassing and condescending statements, most recently regarding what I may or may not know. Has it ever crossed your mind that as someone who has been producing a product line for quite some time that these sort of comparisons are huge considerations? That I wouldn't carry out a variety of tastings/etc. during the development stages? Most of what has been said by yourself thus far has been made by way of assumption. That's not something that really rocks my World but let's play... Now this isn't necessarily what has been discussed, but I assume you have a bottle of Angostura Bitters? Decant 1oz then add 1oz of water. Have a taste of this diluted Ango versus the Ango as they are bottled. Very different don't you think? Now what changed? That's right, the abv. Funny that. Now, prepare two identical drinks, let's say a G&T as I've mentioned this already, with one of these drinks containing 2 dashes of Angostura, the other containing 4 of the diluted Angostura. Look at the colour first. One is darker yeah? Then have a taste. And you're still willing to claim they taste exactly the same?

Quite unbelievable really. What reasons are these? All that is happening is a bunch of people over-complicating something that is very simple, and then bringing all sorts of random equations and ratios to somehow try and suit their side, which is still missing a simple fact - that at the two abvs described throughout they will have very different flavour profiles. You can twist these words how you want, the point stands. These are two concentrations of very flavourful liquid, at two wildly different abvs/profiles/concentrations/flavour/whatever you want to call it. The other factor is that those saying I'm wrong have admitted throughout they haven't actually tried this out. If I could really be bothered I'd send you samples of numerous bottlings and it may start making a little more sense. Back to an earlier statement I quoted already; ...plus these aren't the same bitters as they're (hypothetically) bottled at differing abvs. Again, by abv, that relates to profiles/concentrations/flavour/whatever. *EDIT - Apologies to those that have had to read this as it did get tiresome a little while back, and also apologies if I've not explained this properly, but it is really simple.

What has this post got to do with anything? As for the bolded bit. Odd. This is what I've been saying. With the abv change you are affecting flavour. No. It's not. They both have their own flavour profile. Which takes me to my last point on this subject... And these bitters at two different abvs (or concentrations if you must) are different.

I'm glad someone else pointed this out. Another ratio will likely follow this...

Nope, just went back and read and the point I have been making throughout is the same. I don't need to go back and quote it all as it's already there. I haven't once mentioned 100+1 or any other ratio, all that has ever been posted is that the two bitters will taste different at their respective abvs and that two dashes of the lesser abv have their unique profile, different to that of the higher abv. You make identical drinks, using two bitters at differing abvs, it'll taste different. All these ratios and what-not that people keep bringing up completely miss the point. It's about a concentration of flavour which changes based on its abv. This started at post 841. Out of curiosity, have any of the three of you tried anything similar to what I posted in 860? You could even do your one dash 75% - two dash 37.5% thing if you must.

If you have them, I recommend this drink without the infused rye and adding my Dandelion & Burdock Bitters. Really enjoyed this...

Weeping Jesus on the cross... - Make a litre of citrus bitters using 75%abv alcohol. - Take half of those bitters and dilute to 37.5%abv with water, so you have a 75%abv citrus bitters, and a 37.5%abv citrus bitters. Thus creating two intensely flavoured bitters with differing flavour profiles. I'd imagine the lower abv would have a more floral profile, with more spice prevalent in the 75%abv bitters. - Then make two identical drinks, say Gin&Tonic or a Martini for example, adding 2 or 3 dashes of each bitters to either drink, so one is made with the 37.5 bitters, the other with the 75%. - Taste those drinks. You'll find they will taste different due to the flavour profile brought to the party by the bitters. That's it. That's all I've been saying. It really is that simple. All you keep presenting throughout is various ratios/experiments geared toward diluting the original maceration to the same abv. I'm more interested in real-World scenarios where the flavour profile is the main focus, as shown directly above.

I relly like the sound of this, Toddys and their variants have been a huge part of my year as I've been carrying out a lot of research into Scottish drinking history, with a look at local drinking as well. Toddy is obviously a big feature...

I already have. To prove some sort of point you're now adding them to only water to bring both abvs to the same level. Why? That's just odd. This wasn't what we were talking about originally. You hadn't before. Now you have. Funny that... Don't be ridiculous, I already have. As for your firm grasp comment, best ignore that. Finally we're getting somewhere... Oh, but you're rambling again. Did I say that? That's another post you've made where I'm not sure you read what came before. And why the obsession with the water? Really, why? The amount of water (and alcohol) in the original extraction decides the abv, and thus affects the flavour of that bottling. So, 75% abv bitters taste differently to that which is 37.5%. That bottling will then affect the flavour in the finished drink. So let's say there's more cardamom and angelica prevalent at 75%abv, but at 37.5% it is more citrus forward, that'll affect the drink. And stop with all these ratios of bitters being diluted in enough water to make them both have the same abv. It's quite funny but has nothing to do with what is being spoken about. To how it started, two dashes of 37.5% abv bitters is not the same as one dash at 75% abv as each has it's own flavour profile and no matter how many dashes of 37.5% you add, it'll still be 37.5%. So take two identical Martinis and add 2 dashes of each bitters (75%abv and 37.5%abv) to each Martini, and the flavour profiles described above (cardamom and angelica prevalent at 75%abv, citrus forward at 37.5%) will have an effect on how the final drink tastes.

And the rest is irrelevant. Why? Because the point you're both trying to come back with is simply a case of diluting the original infusion with enough water to bring them to the same abv, so they taste identical. Which misses the point. Completely... In a regular cocktail, one made with a bitters at 75% abv will taste different to one made with 37.5% abv bitters. Would it be possible for you to at least attempt any of these things before assuming you're right? Many? The math is crazy. Just odd...