san
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Posts posted by san
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i personally don't see this as a kitchen issue as much as a foh mgt issue- whoever is running the door should have some sort of system for seating the restaurant according to what the kitchen can handle rather than whether there is an empty table, meaning you figure out at what point the kitchen loses its ability to put out good food, scale it back a couple of tables, and make that many slots available per 1/2 hour (or more or less depending on your turn time). it's always better to turn away a guest because you are too busy than it is to feed a guest and have them leave unhappy (at least in the first instance of them leaving unhappy, they are doing so thinking that the restaurant must be good if there is a 2 hour wait).
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I had eaten at the Whitney a few times several years ago, and then decided to have my wedding reception (and ceremony) there a few weeks ago. I was able to compare the Whitney in the early 2000s with chef Gundy (our tasting) and chef Lutes (the wedding). In each of the 2 post-Liebler instances the food was far, far better than I had remembered it before Mr. Liebler took over. The main attraction for the Whitney, IMO, was always the space, which is totally breathtaking. While the menu was always fairly pricey (for Detroit), the food never really delivered and always took a backseat to the environment. From my experience, the new chef(s) have truly elevated the cuisine to some of the best the city has to offer. Hosting a wedding for 250 people, I would have allowed some room for minor decline in flavor/quality- feeding 250 people at the same time is a far more difficult task than to feed 150-200 people spread out over the course of an entire evening. I was, however, thrilled with the response that we got on the food- literally dozens of people commented on how great it was. I planned most of the menu myself, and asked A LOT of the kitchen staff, and they really delivered. Claudia, the sommelier also did a great job helping me choose the wines, and Penny was excellent in the overall planning of the wedding. The service was very unobtrusive and respectful, though maybe not as polished as you might find in NY or Chicago. The only criticism I would have would be that there is a (very) slight sense of missing some 'little details', such as a burned out light bulb, some crumbs on the floor, and other things that I (as a restaurant manager) can't help but notice. Overall though I would HIGHLY recommend the Whitney as one of the top 2 or 3 restaurants in the Detroit area (and the best venue in they city for a wedding!)
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does anyone know when they will begin accepting requests for the 2008 season?
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i always have a quiet laugh when i hear someone complaining, "it's so busy in here" (yes, madame, we keep doing everything we can to steer away business, but people keep coming, i know, it's terrible).
or the people who walk in and say they had a reservation for 11 people at 7:00 but for some reason our reservation system, which keeps a record of all resos made (including cancelled ones) mysteriously says that this person has never made a reservation at this restaurant (this actually happened last night).
there is something very satisfying about disarming someone who is totally geared up for battle and ready to argue, complain, or threaten their way to something they know is virtually impossible for you to give them. when you find a way to accommodate them (immediately and without a hint of frustration) the stunned look on their face when they realize they have nothing to complain about is priceless
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unless it changed recently the menu price includes food only; the standard wine pairing was approximately 2/3 the cost of the menu price
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Should I assume that you agree with me on this point i.e. when talking of Detroit, one must speak of the Metro(TriCounty)area?Or, am I the only local who feels this way?
i have thought this as well (as have most of the 'detroiters' i've spoken to. this includes oakland, macomb, and wayne counties (ann arbor is washtenaw county). i have no idea the mileage of this area, but it is huge, and (as it's been noted on this thread) many people include ann arbor in the detriot area, too. in my opinion, thoough it should just be the tri-county area.
Some of the places, Cameron's, Mitchell's, I would designate as "chains" even though they are undoubtedly expensive high end places. Just look at the websites for these places.i believe, though owned by cameron mitchell, mitchell's steakhouse in birmingham is the only one of its kind. this should be counted according to the wikipedia definition. plus its a good restaurant (or at least it was when i was there a couple years ago)
Yet I'd say these [steven starr] places contribute to both Philly's roster of great restaurants and its rep as a great restaurant city and thus would belong on any local list like the one for Detroit above.the steven starr element in the philly dining scene is fascinating to me. in the year i've been here almost everyone i've talked to has a subtle disliking of the starr restaurants. i can only attribute it to their one common quality- mega trendiness. steven starr's restaurants are all about "chicks and vokka"- that is an actual quote from him. all of his restaurants are very very popular though and i am totally convinced that the dining landscape in philadelphia is far better because of the steven starr restaurants
Andiamo basically suckedthere are now several andiamo's, all with slightly different concepts. i've found that i really enjoy andiamo west. all of the others i've been to once and doubt i will ever go back.
There are however no shortage of restaurants around the country that do little more than reheat frozen Sysco product, plate it, and deliver it to the customer.none of the restaurants on tjharris' list do this.
Houston covers 600 square miles. Considering that all of Wayne County covers 672 square miles, it's hard to argue that Detroit has "more spread out suburban areas" than Houston (I would argue, rather, that if they become any further spread out than Houston is, they're no longer "suburbs").the metro detroit area covers 3 counties, not just wayne. it is hard to define what's detroit and what's not becuase the suburbs keep going and going and going, in some cases until you hit another city (ann arbor, flint, saginaw)
Can't we do better than La Shish?i love pita cafe.
Hong Hua seems to be the only candidate on most lists for best, or at least fanciest, Chinese in the area.mon-jin-lau & pallas are both great chinese. does house of hunan still exist?
What it boils down to, for me, is that it seems almost all of the "recommended" ethnic places in the area fall under the unusually good cheap eats category. I think a true destination restaurant city, in addition to the quality cheap eats, needs to have multiple examples of ethnic restaurants at or approaching the fine dining level.i disagree. outside of nyc, aren't most cities' ethnic restaurants less-than-fine dining? a restaurant doesn't seem mexican, thai, indian, ethiopian, etc if it is fine dining. i've lived in detroit, san francisco, and philadelphia, and the vast majority of ethnic restaurants i visited were
not fine dining (actually i can't think of any)
when I travel out of Michigan, one of the biggest treats for me is to be able to go to non-Michigan ethnic restaurants.
you should try eating ethnic food in philly- (aside from italian of course) what little selection there is does not compare to places like new seoul garden, pita cafe, passage to india, and the blue nile (sorry philadelphians).
What IS a Restaurant City (or town)?Is it based on a known set of criteria or is it "just a feeling"?
one thing i think i might have alluded to in the beginning of this thread is that in Philadelphia (where i live now), it seems that almost everyone in the restaurant industry knows everyone else in the restaurant industry. the 'degrees of separation' seem to be far far fewer among restaurant people in philly than in detroit. Even the people outside of the industry seem to be more knowledgeable here than in detroit regarding restaurant news (openings, closings, chefs or managers leaving restaurants, etc). there seems to be far more interest among the public in restaurants. Though detroit does have several full time restaurant reviewers, none of them have achieved the celebrity that craig leban has (he used to be a critic in detroit). when any given story runs about restaurants, it seems to me that it is bigger news in Phillly than it is in detroit. that's why it seems to me this is more of a restaurant city. i think if all of the restaurants in the tri county area were in one county we'd have a great restaurant city, but because they are spread out geographically without anything to connect them, interest wanes among diners.
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check out this Detroit News Article about woodward avenue
Since 2003, $1.5 billion in private development and investment has occurred along the roadway, according to the Woodward Avenue Action Association. Approximately $58 million more is under construction or in advanced planning for 2007 and $90 million in residential construction is either under way or just completed.here is another article about the restaurants on woodward now, as well as some of the classic eateries and diners that have closed:
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Also, we havea lot of ethnic restaurants
i agree. in fact, the more i think about it, there really is not any type of cuisine that isn't represented in the detroit area (other than the alinea-moto type restaurants). Fine dining you have lark and tribute, there are several other 'nice' restaurants, the ethnic food, in my opinion, can stand up to any city aside from ny & chicago, and, again, we have lafayette coney island. the thai, chinese, japanese/sushi, italian, greek, mexican, even indian, polish, ethiopian, etc, and definitely middle-eastern cuisines are well represented in Detroit. Everything is just so spread out that it appears (to me, at least) that there is no specific area, inside or outside of the city proper, that has a very high concentration of restaurants. now, if we had a public transportation system, i.e. an 'el' from the Detroit river to Pontiac via Woodward, we would have a perfect vehicle (NPI) to facilitate a backbone from which to build a concentration of restaurants that is easily accessible and part of one distinct and identifiable region. i plan on moving back to the area in 3-5 years- can someone please make sure this is taken care of by the time i get there?
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What's Detroit's answer to the Reading Terminal Market?
i don't know if that's a fair question- do places like RTM exist in most cities? The closest thing would be the Eastern Market, but again it's not easily accessible to everyone in metro detroit because of its location and hours of operation (it's more like the italian market than RTM)
There are plenty of cities that are dispersed across an equally large or larger acerage and which have equally ineffectual public transportation (I would argue that there is no such thing as a post-automobile-age low-density/high-area city with effective mass transportation) and which nevertheless have good restaurants and culinary culture -- Houston comes immediately to mind.That's true. Though I haven't been to Houston in about 25 years, I doubt it has the suburban sprawl that Detroit does. At the same time, LA does, and definitely has its share of quality dining establishments. I get very confused when I start to find similarities between Detroit and LA.
Anyway, are there 'restaurant cities' in areas without popular mass transit systems where suburban areas are spread out like in Detroit? -
there was a topic touched on earlier in this thread regarding whether a city and its suburbs can have seperate their dining scenes. in the case of detroit, you can find restaurants of all kinds both in the city and in the suburbs. melkor's last post makes an interesting point in that regard- in no other city i've lived in has there been such a drastic divide in regards to where people get their groceries. off the top of my head i can think of 10 grocery stores in detroit suburbs where you can find truffles, a wine expert, and a butcher who know what he/she is talking about. within the city limits i doubt anything but the worst possible excuse for a grocery store exists. if people interested in food want to live in an area near any gourmet market, they have to choose from one of the many many suburbs.
i don't buy the "wasteland" excuse for why detroit isn't more of a restaurant city, but based on the insightful posts on this thread it seems that the most distinct differences between detroit and philadelphia (the example i'd been using earlier) are:
1-size- philly has center city, where almost all of the restaurant pool exists, or at least a huge portion of it. detroit's restaurants are spread out among hundreds of miles of suburban sprawl
2-public transportation- for anyone who wants to drink a bottle of wine with dinner, philadelphians can take the el or the broad street line; detroiters have to hire a limo or break the law and risk their (and others') safety.
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slows is a great recommendation... their pulled pork, brisket, and mac & cheese are as good as i've had anywhere in detroit (or san francisco or philadelphia- the other cities i've lived). it makes me want to move back. if you want to go really casual, the one universal place that 99% of detroiters agree is not to be missed would be Lafayette Coney Island. it's basically a chili dog with mustard and onions, but so, so much more.
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i haven't heard any mention of the rattlesnake club in a long, long time.... has anyone been there recently?
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that's a good point that i hadn't thought about... in philadelphia (where i am now) and in san francisco (where i previously lived for a couple of years) chefs came from all over, including the really big name schools like cordon bleu, cia, etc... it's fairly hard to imagine those grads coming to detroit in search of culinary excellence. the result is as Leonard said, chefs either are graduates of schoolcraft or of real world restaurants in detroit. either way there isn't much exposure to other areas, so the fact that there is less influence from other cities/areas would seem to be a factor contributing to a less forward-thinking culinary palate, hence the more 'simple' restaurants mentioned by ryangary.
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In discussing the perils of my hometown of metro Detroit (specifically the lackluster restaurant scene) here, I have made several comparisons to Philadelphia (where I now live). Based on my limited experience here, it seems that only 15 or so years ago Philly was in a not so great state as Detroit has been for so long. Aside from LeBecFin, I can't imagine that many of the great places that make this city a dining destination were around back then. To what do you attribute the birth of so many excellent restaurants in a relatively short period of time? It should be mentioned that I have already heard any stupid wisecrack about Detroit that you can think of, so please refrain- I am a little sensitive...
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If there was an "el" system that went from the Detroit river to Pontiac via Woodward, that would cover most of the popular areas of downtown, the new center area, ferndale, royal oak, birmingham, and pontiac. Not only could more people visit the restaurants in these cities, but they could have more than one or two drinks!!!! How different would the dining landscape of metro Detroit become if you could visit Northern Lakes Seafood for oysters, stop at Vinotecca for a glass of wine/tapas, then dinner at Seldom Blues, and a crepes for dessert at Josephine's in Ferndale? I really don't buy the economy excuse, because while it is bleak at best, restaurants are still popping up all the time. I agree that Philly 20 years ago was worse than Detroit is now, and now it is one of the best restaurant cities in the country. Perhaps the metro area is just too big, causing the restaurant pool to be spread thin. I never visited Emily's, Jeremy, or Five Lakes Grill because I never got around to it, and every time it came up I couldn't accept that if I were going to drive that far I wouldn't be able to drink. Public transportation (for me) would definitely make me visit more restaurants, more often, and has since moving to Philadelphia.
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I agree completely. Though I've been away for about a year (in Philadelphia), I have lived in metro detroit for most of my life and being in Philly has opened up my eyes a bit regarding the way a real restaurant city should be. Obviously the economy is always a factor when it comes to Detroit recently, but I am troubled by the overall lack of great restaurants in the metro area. Royal Oak, with all of its new lofts and development, really has hardly improved on its dining scene which has been comprised of places for sustinence either before or after the bar. I should note that vinotecca/bastone both have interesting menus and decor, but service (though not bad) isn't especially good. A handful of places in the city have opened that I was genuinely excited about, only to find six months later that they either didn't change anything about their entire menu, or tamed the creativity that my excitement was based on to begin with. Here in philly there is a genuine excitement within both the public, the media, and the industry when a new restaurant opens, even if it is a 30 seat byob in a remote area of the city. Industry members seem to all know each other, get along well, and dine at (and recommend) each others restaurants. I can name any restaurant in the city with a $20+ p/p check average and 90% of Philidelphians I talk to will give me a 10 minute review. In Detroit, many people have never heard of Tappewingo, The Lark, Tribute, Etc..... Is the lack of excitement in the Detroit dining scene due to the economy? The lack of interest from Detroiters? Is the lack of interest due to the lack of quality? Am I off-base and being over-critical of a city with hundreds of great restaurants? Since I have veered far off topic I will start another one here
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Though I've been away for about a year (in Philadelphia), I have lived in metro detroit for most of my life and being in Philly has opened up my eyes a bit regarding the way a real restaurant city should be. Obviously the economy is always a factor when it comes to Detroit recently, but I am troubled by the overall lack of great restaurants in the metro area. Royal Oak, with all of its new lofts and development, really has hardly improved on its dining scene which has been comprised of places for sustinence either before or after the bar. I should note that vinotecca/bastone both have interesting menus and decor, but service (though not bad) isn't especially good. A handful of places in the city have opened that I was genuinely excited about, only to find six months later that they either didn't change anything about their entire menu, or tamed the creativity that my excitement was based on to begin with. Here in philly there is a genuine excitement within both the public, the media, and the industry when a new restaurant opens, even if it is a 30 seat byob in a remote area of the city. Industry members seem to all know each other, get along well, and dine at (and recommend) each others restaurants. I can name any restaurant in the city with a $20+ p/p check average and 90% of Philidelphians I talk to will give me a 10 minute review. In Detroit, many people have never heard of Tappewingo, The Lark, Tribute, Etc..... There is no unified opinion of a best restaurant in Detroit. The lark and tribute are definitely great restaurants, but they get little or no national attention. Magazines like Food & Wine mention Philadelphia restaurants in every issue. Is the lack of excitement in the Detroit dining scene due to the economy? The lack of interest from Detroiters? Is the lack of interest due to the lack of quality? Am I off-base and being over-critical of a city with hundreds of great restaurants?
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That sounds like the restaurant that would be in the hidden Colorado Mountains of Atlas Shrugged...
QUOTE(adegiulio @ Jun 19 2007, 09:39 AM)
I would love to see a prime steakhouse with no wine list. BYOB only...
Are you listening, Philadelphians?
YES!!!
www.Davios.com
byob every friday except during restaurant week
(Philadelphia location)
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We do indeed allow BYOB on Fridays at Davio's... Surprisingly not very many of our Friday guests take advantage of this.
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these things don't happen as much as we might let on, but these are my favorites:
-a guest complaining about a dry piece of fish they ordered well done,
-a guest insisting on being seated at a table in the server's section who just got triple-sat and then saying "where's our server?!?!"
-a guest inquiring about booking a large party 8 months from now at 7:45pm on the friday of restaurant week
-a guest complaininig about blandness when requesting no salt, pepper, butter, cream, oil, etc...
-servers complaining about bad tips on the same shift that bussers/runners tell me those same servers only gave them 1/2 the tipout they should have
-opening a pack of 61" tablecloths and trying 10 IN A ROW before you get one that's presentable (this happened last week)
-servers complaining about having too many tables at a time AND too many servers on the floor during every shift
in all seriousness though if this stuff didn't happen i suspect that our work would be as boring as an office job... this ridiculousness is what makes our job a challenge and truly fun. it always makes me laugh when i picture what a non-restaurant person would do to try to handle one of these situations.
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dean and deluca in soho had brandt beef when i was there a few weeks ago (the steaks that davio's serves)... 100% true natural, prime, corn-fed.
D&D charges quite a bit but as i said these steaks are really really good. For everyday steaks I find wegman's to be the best value.
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Though my opinion is 100% biased, I would rather eat a steak from Davio's than any other restaurant I've dined at in Philly
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at an outdoor seafood restaurant in bangkok where each server had a tiny whip to use on stray cats who strolled into the dining area, one menu item read "spicy cat salad". after discussing this we discovered that one of the menus had "fish" handwritten after the cat and it was indeed a "spicy catFISH salad"; there were at least 3 or 4 stray cats in the restaurant area during our entire dinner........
Perry's Deli: Five Best Sandwiches in the Nation
in The Heartland: Dining
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do hot dogs count as sandwiches?
if so my vote goes to lafayette coney island in detroit