kevinnoe

I'd just like to add to "Paul Raphael's" original post here. I've been experimenting with exactly what you are discussing here with all kinds of wonderful results. Truth is, no matter how hard I try to work breads with traditional approaches to pre-ferments, I can never make breads as satisfying as those made employing the Gosslein or Reinhart "L'Ancienne" techniques. I'm amazed that this approach (with all of its possible variations and necessary tweaks given the nature of the particular bread on is trying to make) haven't already begun to dominate bread making for both the professional and the home baker. For me, there is simply no comparison in the finished bread in terms of flavor, texture, internal caramelization, etc. Right now, what I'm experimenting with falls into two camps. 1.) Back to Gosslein's method with no yeast or salt added up front (your original post!) - mixed cold with an overnight fridge fermentation - but then trying to find the best way to incorporate the yeast. For this - we have to remember that various sponge techniques are not exclusively about fermenting the dough (meaning flour) itself. It is also about what happens to the yeast itself. So - I'm experimenting using what Oritz calls the "Austrian flourless sponge" with my yeast mixed with a small amount of water at the same time as I mix up the flour and water for the fridge. I keep the water and yeast mixture out of the fridge overnight, then mix with the retarded dough the next morning. I'll also try a firmer, biga type method, but only with a very small amount of yeast and flour - allowed to ripen overnight. The bulk of the flour - by far - remains L'Ancienne! I'm using folding and the long fridge time as my primary gluten developers - not much mixing. 2.) Wild Yeast L'Ancienne. I'm convinced that a properly formed Sourdough L'Ancienne (not easy to accomplish given the different nature of what is going on here) may just be my personal holy grail of bread! I nailed it once, didn't write it all down, and thus... the quest continues!

Dom, So great to have another colleague out there! These are beautiful breads indeed - congratulations I have lots more to think about now as your fermentation and shaping technique shares similarities - but overall is so crazy cool I need to mull over it a bit. What a long time in the fridge - and how wonderful. The crumb of the ciabatta in particular quite resembles the two fantastic succeses that I had. I think I'm going to try your recipe exactly as you suggest and see what kind of results I get. Can I ask a quick favor. I've read through your approach, but I'm hoping for a little bit more information on the non-refrigerated fermentation times in your work - and if possible - a little description of the condition of the levain and dough at various stages. My kitchen tends to make breads move a bit faster than slower - and I tend to be guilty of overproofing already - so a couple of extra describers would be helpful. Next time I hit it - I'll take photos and post as well. Did you find, as I have, that this crumb is more soft and supple than most other sourdoughs and that you still managed to preserve that indescribably wonderful L'ancienne sweetness? Kevin P.S. Thanks for contributing!

Thanks for this info. I have a lot to think about. I have had only mixed success straight out of the fridge. I have had, on two occasions, stunning success with a process of stretching and folding on the 1/2 hour after it comes out of the fridge. Normally this goes on for about 2 hours to 2 1/2 hours depending on how active the dough is. The trick is handling it gently each time and not degassing more than necessary. It feels more like moving the air pockets around and restretching the surface. I'm guessing that this might also improve the problem you are describing with the outside overproofing but the middle not doing much if you try a little proofing post fridge. This way it all gets mixed through and warms up in the middle as well. I know it sounds odd, as you would think I would be destroying the internal texture, but on the two occasions when I got it just right - it was absolutely stunning - open crumb - wildly diverse - carmelized deeply - sweet in that incredible bread way. Best bread I ever tasted. In these cases they had both been refrigerated immediately after the dough was mixed - no bulk proofing at room temperature - only the cold retardation for about 20 hours. Then, as I said, pull it out - 2 hours roughly of shaping and folding and then into the oven. BOOM! Bread! I'm trying another loaf like this tomorrow morning. We'll see. Kevin

Thanks for the info. Of course I do mean the amount of preferment - I'll always call the leavening agent that is mixed into the final dough the "levain" or leaven to keep from getting confused. Two additional questions. 1) Is your levain, after its twelve hour fermentation, at a typical ripe and lively stage - quite tenacious and, roughly, having doubled in size? Or... alternatively, does your 12 hour fermentation result in a levain that is almost overripe and not on its way up, but a little on the way down? 2) When you say you bake from cold.... three things: a) Are you literally talking straight out of the fridge and into the oven? b) What is the difference if you don't give the dough the two hour rise before it goes into the fridge and instead it just goes straight in - then comes out the next day and goes straight into the oven? c) When you bake 'from cold' I'm assuming in every case that the dough went into the fridge shaped to bake. Is this true? Or... do you sometimes take it straight out of the fridge in a bulk state, shape it, and immediately bake it? If so - what are the differences that you have noticed? Thanks! Kevin

Thanks for reminding me that the basis of your experiment is, in fact, Wild Yeast L'ancienne! I had previously read this post, but in following the thread through I wound up getting distracted. There is so much other talk in that thread about tending to starters and Vitamin C that I wonder if it hasn't gotten off topic a little into a more general sourdough disussion. Anyway - back to L'ancienne. Three questions: 1) Have you experimented much with the percentage of levain used in the final dough? I'm wondering if you honed in on the 33% amount after much trial and error making exactly the same dough, or whether you started with this amount and stuck with it as it conformes to basically tripling for the final dough? In a sense, one of the dilemmas with Sourdough L'ancienne is that the larger the percentage of ripe starter in the final dough, the less actually L'ancienne it is - in a sense - as a higher percentage of the dough has been allowed to ripen traditionally outside the fridge. Anyway - have you tried lots of different percentages? What results did you get? 2) I'm assuming that you have made the L'ancienne using commercial yeast as well. I'm wondering you feel like you have been able to attain, with wild yeast, that particular quality of sweetness that one finds in a commericially yeasted bread done using L'ancienne technique. Have you compared the two side by side in tastings? 3) You mention at one point "The recipe above uses very mature sponge, and the residual heat of the dough as it cools in the fridge. Recently I've been fermenting it for an additional 3-4 hours with even better results." I'm wondering if you are referring to fermenting the starter for an additional 3-4 hours before mixing the dough or are you talking about fermenting the dough itself for 3-4 hours before putting it into the fridge for its cold fermentation? Thanks. It's nice to know someone else is on the same quest. Kevin

I'm hoping to start a new thread, or discover an existing thread, about using Pain L'ancienne technique to make wild yeast breads with no additional commercial yeast. I think that I'm really onto something wonderful here, and I'm wondering if there are others out there who are dabbling with the same issue. If you are out there - please let me know. As a starter, pardon the pun, I'm convinced that the secret lay in a long standing misconception that rise and fermentation are essentially the same thing. People constantly use the terms rise and fermentation virtually interchangeably - and they talk of prolonging rise when what they really mean is prolonging fermentation. Pain L'ancienne technique blew the doors off that notion and I'm hoping to press forward using that information to develop new ways of approaching all kinds of wild yeast bread making. I don't seem to find any other people out there working on this wonderful breakthrough yet, but I know you are out there somewhere. I probably have not looked in the right place. Anyone interested? What say ye? Kevin

I'm not sure if you are still following this thread, but I thought I might throw in a thought or two. I've been confounded by some of the same things mentioned here. In particular, the relationship between flavor development and time. Although I'm interested in a slightly different discovery than the one you seem to be after with regards to yeast development (sourdough pain l'ancienne to be precise), there is something that has both helped and plagued my bread quest for quite some time that might be of use to you... Think of flavor development (meaning essentially fermentation, enzyme activity, sugar break-out, the amylase, etc.) and rise - as two separate things. Although they certainly have some relation, pain l'ancienne technique has taught us nothing if not that they can be separated in terms of process. This may sound obvious to say, but think about how inextricably linked rise and fermentation have been in our minds throughout bread history. They really are not the same thing. The whole trick is to perfectly balance three things: 1) Get the maximum sugar breakout from the starches in the grain. 2) Get a large buildup of carbon dioxide from the yeast feeding on that sugar to raise the loaf so that it can bake deeply and caramelize. 3) Don't give them long to do it or they will eat most of the sugar and the bread loses flavor. To this end - I think you are onto something with your pursuit for the right heat for fermentation. However - my guess is that you will find that it is only applicable to making great bread if you limit the heat application to your final proof - which can be, and I think should be, short. All bulk fermentations I'm betting will turn out to be best done slowly and coldly. My theory is that flavor development does take time, and that it is best done in either a yeast free environment, or one in which the yeast is so sleepy that it isn't eating much (i.e. cold). However, proofing (which really serves almost exclusively to pump up the bread with carbon dioxide so that it can make a great shape, give a good rise, and bake and caramelize the crumb as deeply as possible), can be done quickly in a warm environment and will, in fact, improve the bread as it will give the yeast less time to eat an excess of the sugars. The whole secret is thinking of flavor development and rise as two separate things. I recognize this is not directly an answer to your question - but I'm betting that it this is related and might be able to help - particularly with a person who is approaching things with as much understanding and doing as much research as you seem to be. We are not really looking for as much yeast as we can get are we? We are looking for as much flavor as we can get. Yeast is primarily giving us lift from its... well... you know. If we could get the yeast leftovers, without any yeast, we might still be able to have great bread! We've been locked into thinking that developing flavor means prolonging rise , and that isn't quite true is it... Kevin