StanSherman
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Posts posted by StanSherman
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How far do most people have to travel to go to buy from a farmer? How far do they have to go to buy the fixed price goods?
Many people from the US on this forum live in cities, but we have to travel almost two hours to get to any city as big as Ambato. (or close to it)
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Panaderia Canadiense:
“Food policy is what determines, by and large, our food prices and many of the attitudes towards growers/growing.”
I believe attitudes are made through personal interaction and/or marketing. Prices just generally piss people off.
EatNopales:
“industrialization needs cheap energy, cheap raw materials & subsidized infrastructure to make it economically feasible.”
I really disagree. It may change social structure but it’s inherent value is productivity. Other countries have cheap labor. Is that economically feasible?
“Less governed regions will become more the norm than the big government industrial welfare states of the 20th Century... in that environment farming will inevitably become less industrial more communal.”
Where is the “farm labor” going to come from? Our current economy doesn’t give the populace the chance for parents to spend time with their kids or have a day of Sabbath together. How are they supposed to now grow food and learn what to do with this stuff?
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We had gotten way off topic in the price at the Farmers’ Market thread so I thought we’d start a separate discussion about food policy.
Let’s talk about policy and try not to get political. Let’s share information and ideas in a manner that we can all learn something. There has been much talk about the problems with out food system and what our future has in store for us. With a tractor manual in one hand and food manifesto of your choice in the other, let’s try and learn more.
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We were at an Amish bulk store today and they are now stocking AP organic flour from http://www.montanaflour.com/. I've been using KA flour but I can only get it in 5 pound bags. Any experience with the Montana?
I mostly make the country loaf from Tartine.
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Nopales,
I'm not quite as pessimistic as you. In the future will patrons of the Ferry Plaza Market sip on $85 lattes while munching on their organic soylent green biscuits?
Do you think we should open a thread on "food policy" to keep this thread from further drift? I believe it's a valuable discussion.
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Too dang cold here for naked anything! I am seriously considering turning the heat on.
Our heat kicked on this morning. We are supposed to have a dip down to 37 next week. The tomatoes are all in 2 gallon containers in a cold frame. They may end up there until Memorial Day.
We've got some ham hocks, split peas and broth simmering for supper. We should be having peas and mint, but the peas aren't even in the ground yet.
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The reasons for the price difference is that the farmers at the market have only gas to transport their goods as overhead,
No value on farmers time?
whereas the supermarkets are paying rents, utilities, employees, social security, and on and on and on. This is naturally passed on to the consumers. Equally, that pound of strawberries I bought at the market? They gave it to me in a 1/2 penny plastic bag. At the supermarket, it's packaged to within an inch of its life. Equally, any packaged product sold in a supermarket here must pass Sanitary Registry inspections, which cost about $50 for each product (ie if I want to sell packaged strawberries and packaged uvillas, I pay $100, and so on). This is well out of the reach of a quichua grandmother who's selling the things she grows in her garden, or her eggs, at the farmer's market - she's dealing in small volumes. As are most farmers - that's where the middlemen come in. They buy out entire crops from small farms, then resell the aggregate harvest to the markets at a premium. Hence the price can triple before it hits the consumer.
That is the big reason for Farmers' Markets in the US. Except you now need to shop with eco groovy Peruvian woven market baskets
Considering this, it's hardly surprising that most of the population frequents the farmer's markets! The big one where I shop is also where most of the restaurants buy their produce.
I wonder why anyone would buy at the supermarkets.
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I have nothing against corn... my people were made of corn
However, and since you are there & in the business and know what is going on... can you tell me what Corn commodity prices would be without any government subsidies & without the ridiculously cheap energy costs we have come to be dependent on? Probably not as cheap as they have been right?
1) Without subsidies prices should be a little lower, but not as much as you think. The bookkeeping, accounting and legal fees are eating up way too much of that now. The problem might be a glut of CPAs and Attorneys who are now unemployed. Try and get them new jobs
2) I'm not really sure that energy costs have been too low or not. Up-thread you mentioned "big tractors". This afternoon I was able to confirm with a Farmer/MBA tillage costs. Next door they have one of those big ol rigs. It looks like a small apartment building on the horizon. It covers 1 mile of each operation in the time my tractor covers 400 feet. This time of year this thing is dragging a seeder that plants 24 rows. It even stops seed drops where it knows it has covered already. In one 10 hour shift it will seed 200 acres on 100 gallons of diesel. At last years prices that puts the farming energy costs at .0025% they could triple this year because of weather but that would be within the norm.
What will happen to Food Processors when they know for sure that Corn & Corn based by products (High Fructose Corn Syrup) are consistently more expensive than they are today. They either find substitutes, raise prices or a combination of both, correct?
Possibly, but how are the other sugars going to keep their price down? I'm not sure, most of the corn in this area is exported (we are close to the Mississippi River and they barge it downstream) or goes into feed. I'll look into the HFCS supply chain.
Now what will happen to consumer decisions once the price of all that processed junk that makes up the bulk of a supermarket (much of it refrigerated or frozen) goes up in price... will not more closely grown, less processed foods gain somewhat of a comparative advantage?
I would sure hope so, but as an advocate for healthier food I'd rather not tell someone they are eating shit, but show them how good better food tastes.
Look at the challenges we are likely going to face in the next 40 years:
1) Increased Petrochemical Costs as the BRICs industrialize & oil production starts declining / peaks (the price of gasoline, chemicals, fertilizers, food transportation, refrigeration, air conditioning, heating etc., all rise)
Generally agree, but there is always a chance of an energy type of discovery.
2) Stagnant Wages for 90 to 97.5% of Americans dampens Real Estate & consequently Land values and with it mortage backed Consumer Credit.. also shrinks the Tax base
I agree
Take just these factors together and we will likely see the following things happen:
1) Ratio of Sq. Ft Living Space per Person will drop (the relative cost of building materials, appliances, household energy will became a bigger share of our paycheck which itself will shrink on an Inflation Adjusted basis)
I agree, with children being much more like Japanese youth and staying home well into their adulthood. In other words we won't be able to get rid of the little mooches.
2) As tax revenue diminish / stagnate.. Government spends less money on Ag Subsidies, Military bases (which tend to subsidize remote areas), and Paved Roads (we are already seeing paved roads in the Rust Belt reverting back to dirt roads because the government can't maintain them)
Hey, I resemble that remark! I live on a gravel road. My truck is always dirty but it saves me $120/month in property taxes. I spend about $500 less in keeping it clean per year. Unthinkable in LA but I can live with it here.
3) As people huddle into less household space, and the network of paved roads shrinks.. land on the urban fringes & rural areas will become cheaper... plausibly cheap enough to encourage alot more farming.
I wonder where these small scale farmers will come from.
4) Processed food traveling long distances as going to become comparatively more expensive while locally grown, minimally processed food will become less expense.
That assumes that all food can be locally grown and processed. I still think lettuce growers from CA will have too big of an advantage to overcome the shipping costs.
<snip>
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I could go into more detail, but you get the drift.
I'd like the detail. What you think are the reasons for the price difference? Can normal farmers sell to the Supermarkets?
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there is no reason California couldn't be competitive with Iowa in the egg business.
Times a changing... this not about buying into Pollen's world view or anything ideological.. the food system will change out of necessity.
Actually from my experience and knowledge there is no way California could become competitive in the egg business. (BTW the egg beaters are produced as a byproduct of hairline cracked shells. They have very advanced systems to detect the cracks. They then cull them for products like Egg Beaters)
If listened to Michael Pollen and read many of his pieces. Unfortunately in the last five years we have gone further away from the US population actually being able to feed themselves with unprocessed foods.
I was shocked when selling whole chickens at Farmers' Markets (whole is all that is allowed in CA) how many people with fancy kitchens equipped with Sub-Zeros and Wolf ranges have no idea how to handle a chicken.
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Will not the TOUGH economics of the farming business force people to different alternatives.
Absolutely, but in this part of the country they can grow corn better and cheaper than any place on earth. Unless they come up with a viable biofuel crop that can grow in zone 4 there is no viable alternative.
I felt very similar to you until I actually went through a few seasons and observed how it actually works.
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Again the basis of my argument is that $3 bushel corn, as heavily enabled by government subsidies, cheap energy & hidden environmental costs is unsustainable and when the bubble blows (it certainly will) the food system is going to be unrecognizable to our generation.. but will be very recognizable the pre-industrial cultures.
In my area farmers don't have the choice to grow much other than feed stock. The season is too short and the beginning is very wet. A small percentage could be converted, but take the converse argument. How would Iowans get fruit if it were not for imports. We can grow apples, cherries, pears and a few others, but even fruits like pears are being left on the trees in California due to labor costs not shipping costs.
Please don't take me wrong, We basically have a very nice CSA sized small farm, but we don't market our products. We give it away to other farmers in the area. We actually grow sweet corn for corn farmers. They in turn make sure we have all the pork, beef, chicken and compost we could ever want.
Corn always gets the label of evil since it is overused in our food chain. There will most likely be a bubble in the corn land because of 2010 profits being so high. They are paying ridiculous prices for acreage now as the reinvest their money.
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LOL.. I knew someone would bring up Sandra Lee and tablescapes.
But seriouly, of you are hosting a full on dinner party, I don't think your responsibilities begin and end in the kitchen.
Sometimes when a line is thrown at you, you gotta take it.
It would be great if someone did a good dinner party show. Lot's of people really stress over it.
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EatNopales,
According to UC Davis, California imports about 50% of their eggs (2008). I also know truck drivers that do the route.
Corn is at 6.85 today and most farmers expect the subsidies are going to go away eventially.
I choose the egg example because we grew organic pastured broilers and layers in California and now live in Iowa. I have easier access to actual numbers.
One of the problems with using studies or references from academic studies is how dated they are. Corn subsidies per acre have been declining. For example, a family in this area with 6000 acres of corn received about 60K in 2009. With GR around $1200/acre it is hardly going to have any influence on planting. They will most likely by less equipment.
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I like mango with yogurt, blended with a pinch of cardamon.
Juiced apples with a pinch of fresh rosemary.
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As we have all learned from Sandra Lee, tablescapes are important. I'll prolly watch it if it airs during news hours.
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They may be more efficient at $75 / barrel oil.. will they be more efficient at $200 / barrel oil?
Efficient for who? Farmers that sell at farmers' markets have generally lost profits as fuel prices have increased. Most farmers near large urban areas have 100-200 mile distances to a market.
I ran some rough numbers on eggs from Iowa to California. Walmart has one of the pick-up stations on a large egg farm about 30 miles from here. They transport about 8500 dozen in one load. It cost about 35 cents a dozen at today's fuel prices. The alternative would be for markets in California to market local eggs. Unfortunately California can't grow the chicken chow nearly as efficient as Iowa so they would be importing more weight than just the finished product. In my Iowa egg example the waste is returned right back to the corn crops with minimal hauling.
The OP refers to an article that cites how food is "cheaper" at the farmers' markets. They did not qualify with "other costs". Leopold also proposes that organic farming is cheaper than current practices in direct costs (not hidden). It is simply not believable when you really crunch the numbers.
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I stopped using anything but MAPP with my torches a while back. It lights easier, burns hotter and cleaner.
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In the US the "Farmers' Markets" was created to allow small farmers and home growers a way to market products without standardized labeling and packaging. The idea is that when you have the grower in front of you the packaging is not really necessary.
Notwithstanding the abuses to the system, most products in the Northern US are not going to be a bargain this time of year. I have managed a market, sold at different markets and been involved in the politics. Usually our "profit" from a market comes from the trading we do with other vendors.
I personally won't do the markets anymore because spending two days a week haggling over the price of an onion isn't worth it for me.
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We have a great Coop that has a large bulk section. I can grab all my spice, grain and dried fruit jars from the pantry and go top them off in the store. It's a huge savings with much less waste.
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Things may be slowly changing. Purdue now has a cage-free line of chicken. Who'd have thunk. Must mean that there's demand.
You have to remember with chickens that there are birds for eating "broilers" and hens for eggs. Broilers are usually not in cages. The have 59,999 birds in one building. These are a Cornish Cross breed. They don't wander more than a few feet from the chicken chow. They are typically harvested as one building at seven weeks. They eat so much so fast that they will rarely make it to 8-9 weeks.
When you see "free-range" it means there is a door left open and a few get lost outside.
The most humane treatment is typically "pastured". Usually that is done with movable cages where the birds are moved over new grass daily.
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A few years back we were waiting for a table at Zaytinya in DC. Their pager didn't work so we never got called. When we approached the hostess she basically told us we were out of luck. We were pretty pissed off by then and walked across the street to RC. We had a great meal and actually felt wanted.
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I think we're going to have to find a more kind and gentle hobby like rugby. Last Friday we had 50mph winds that blew the garlic right out of the ground. Today we got 4 inches of snow.
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Sounds more like contract negotiation than anything else. I'm sure LA schools have a department that deals with media production.
Food Policy
in Food Traditions & Culture
Posted
I've pondered the food system for many years. Personally, I don't think obesity is solely a food problem. Kids play with some electronic device almost constantly.
Food surely play a big part in it, but in US households there is rarely someone available to prepare wholesome healthy meals. You could drop a CSA box on their doorstep and most of it would rot.
It is a political subject. Better wording would be to try and keep the partisanship out. Actually with biofuels we've added energy policy into the debate.