fortedei
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Posts posted by fortedei
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..., I would suggest that if you believe these three really know what technique is all about, I would say that we are on different pages.
Fortedei,
As someone with no classic technique at all, I ask this question in all innocence and with genuine curiosity (i.e., no sarcasm). Could you give some specific examples (naming names even) of where/how/why the lack of French technique is a problem in an Italian kitchen. Why can't there be two parallel schools? You yourself said (didn't you?) that the French can't cook pasta and risotto. There is plenty of Italian technique, or don't you count something like the making of paper-thin Emilian tagliatelle because its origin is the home kitchen, not the professional?
I think you misunderstood me. More, probably, I didn't make myself very clear. My apologies for that.
Lack of French technique is almost never a problem (In a second, I'll get to the one time I believe it is) in an Italian kitchen, as long as the Italian chef in the kitchen stays within his or her sphere of competence. As you pointed out, I had said that the French (and Americans by the way) simply don’t have a clue about pasta, not only not knowing how to make it (either stuffed or not), but they don’t even know how to sauce it properly. And yes, I agree 100 % that paper thin Emilian tagliatelle needs real skill, as much as anything in French cuisine. Risotto is even worse than pasta in the hands of the French… even the most skilled French chef turns it into a disaster; why do they even bother to try. They have no risotto soul. Those two are the standouts of course, but the Italian technique is superb in “simple” ,but very difficult dishes like grilled meats and fish. In more difficult to make (make very well!) dishes e.g. lattuga ripiena and mesciua ( which exist in another form in French cuisine) to name just two, I’d say that the Italians have it all over the French in terms of technique; and the list could go on. So… there is no general problem with a lack of French technique in an Italian kitchen. Italians do quite well thank you.
There are, however, two specific problems. The first is when an Italian chef tries to do something, as I said, out of his/her sphere of competence and that is what we are dealing with when we speak of the “cutting edge.” Adria is evidently genius; perhaps Alajmo is as well. I can tell you that the duo in Senagallia and the big man in San Vincenzo are not. When they try to duplicate what Adria is doing, they might as well be following it out of an Italian food magazine (which many are). Couple that with the extraordinary technical skill needed to pull off “cutting edge” cuisine and you have a disaster. I’ve mentioned in the past two of the restaurants that have tried and failed, and there are many more. That was what my comments were meant to say and again, sorry if they were not clear.
The one area (other than deviating from one’s sphere of competence) that I think Italian chefs could be immeasurably helped by French technique is in pastry. In my mind (overall; not just a pastry or two or three from a particular cuisine, of which there are many great ones) there is only French pastry at the top and all the others at the bottom… no one in between. I’m sure those German dessert lovers will be all over me. When the Italians try to do pastry, it is so bad compared to the French, that it is sad to see. It doesn’t have to be that way… the Italians just need to swallow their pride and learn how to make great pastry.
That’s how this Italophile sees things. By the way, the two chefs that I’ve encountered that have the best technique (notice I didn’t say best restaurants), are Paolo Masieri of Paolo and Barbara in San Remo and Phillipe Leveille of Miramonte L’Altro in Concesio. In my mind, no one has even come close to the two of them in my 35 years of eating in restaurants in Italy.
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If you want innovation instead of stagnation, you need to have tolerance for risk. Of every thousand new dishes, perhaps only one -- if that -- will represent a meaningful contribution to culinary history. But if you don't try to make, serve and gauge reactions to the thousand, you can't get the one.
I agree about the innovation and stagnation.
Do you think Italians who go to restaurants that cost 125 plus euros per person, without wine, want to take a risk, a risk that the chef is not capable of properly preparing an "innovation"? Noooooooooooooooooooo!
Perhaps Americans and Japanese are willing but Italians are not. If there is risk that is going to being taken, at least have the person "preparing the risk" know what he or she is doing, before subjecting customers to it. There are few, perhaps not any, Italian chefs cooking in Italy that are taking these risks... and who really truly truly know the fundamentals (techniques) of cooking.
At least that has been my experience. Before anyone brings up the "Senagallia duo", La Madonnina and Uliassi, or the big man in San Vincenzo, I would suggest that if you believe these three really know what technique is all about, I would say that we are on different pages.
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He can't not be Italian, he respects his roots and is using them as roots are intended to be used: a foundation for a plant to flourish and grow.
Very eloquently expressed idea, Judith, and couldn't agree more. I feel like we could fill in that "He" with a number of chefs in Italy, the US, and elsewhere, and the sentence would still fit like a glove. Fortadei may disagree (but I suppose that disagreement is exactly what makes eGullet the perfect place for debates such as this!)
You're correct,I do disagree.
My apologies for misspelling your name, fortedei! Could you explain a little bit about why/how you disagree with hathor's comment. Must a chef be more strictly loyal to his culinary roots in order to respect them, in your opinion? If so, would you say it is possible for Italian cuisine to evolve without such rebels?
No apologies necessary about the spelling of my name.
Below is what I said on this thread in September. Also go to the entry on Apr 21 2006 and in fact the entire thread of Identità Golose 2006.
"Culinary tradition is always changing. Nothing is static. Evolution, however, takes a lot of time. When "evolution" happens on a time table which is speeded up, most often it ends up being a fad; fads happen very quickly and they disappear equally so. We'll see if what has happened very recently with ten restaurants in Italy is something that remains longer term, and becomes a tradition in some restaurants , or whether it is a fad. As I said in a prior post, very few Italians go to these ten restaurants and those that go to the others that are trying something different, never go back because they can’t stand different food which is poorly prepared. That is not what Italians do. I saw the nuova cucina, up close and personal in the 80s. At the time, food magazines and foodies, particularly in America and France thought it was a great break with a cuisine which was too traditional (and Italian restaurateurs readily went along, because if the French are doing it “we can do it better”) . Actually, Beppe Cantarelli and Franco Colombani had begun going back to regional cuisine just a few years before, so nuova cucina was trying to change something which hadn’t fully changed yet. It flamed out very quickly and a lot of restaurants got hurt.
Innovation, in food and other areas, is a great thing in the hands of people who know what they are doing. Unfortunately, most of the top restaurants in Italy (lets say, as rated by the Gambero Rosso, if for no other reason than that guide is a good starting point for the “top” restaurants) have no clue as to what they are doing. Lets be honest; cooking technique, as practiced in Italian restaurants, leaves a lot to be desired (and I’m a fervent Italophile), certainly as compared to that in France. Notice, I’m only speaking of technique, not taste nor combination of ingredients.
We can start with pastry and work our way from there (on the other hand it is truly pathetic when a French chef tries to make pasta or risotto… truly pathetic). France has it all over Italy in terms of technique. As far as I’m aware, only two chefs in Italy, again lets say in the top 20 of Gambero Rosso, had a great deal, if not most, of their training in France. These two, by the way, are head and shoulders above their peers as far as technique goes, and both have Italian souls, a great combination, although one of these two has certainly gone over to the other side with regard to fusion (perhaps in order to get a higher rating in the guides).
Unfortunately in Italy, those who try to innovate, in most cases, are just mucking around. For every Calandre (I haven’t been there, but I’m assuming from comments, that he knows what he is doing) and there are few of them, there are many Fulmines. When you see what Caino has become, you weep for what she was (which was special). Innovation in cooking can be great if you’ve intensively learned the basics of cooking. Most of the “top” chefs in Italy have learned the basics of a very basic (but simply wonderful in my mind) cuisine. When they try to do something more, for the most part, they are just not up to par. Innovation for innovation’s sake is just foolishness and those who are trying to innovate, and are without technical competence, and are not staying within their sphere of competence, are condemned to repeat the failures of the past. It won’t be pleasant to see."
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He can't not be Italian, he respects his roots and is using them as roots are intended to be used: a foundation for a plant to flourish and grow.
Very eloquently expressed idea, Judith, and couldn't agree more. I feel like we could fill in that "He" with a number of chefs in Italy, the US, and elsewhere, and the sentence would still fit like a glove. Fortadei may disagree (but I suppose that disagreement is exactly what makes eGullet the perfect place for debates such as this!)
You're correct,I do disagree.
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Thank you all for the help. These are all great suggestions that will help me while I am there. I do not have a car unfortunately, but maybe I will look into renting one, or maybe a motorcycle if it isn't too cold or expensive.
I am more inclined, like Sampaguita suggested, to look for the great little restaurants in the country side. Where the food is rustic and tradtitional, and also won't kill the bankbook...lol
As it stands right now I am going to head to Torino when I leave Chamonix. I will be couchsurfing, so will therefore get to meet some people from the area and will figure out where to go next from there.
I will try to keep you guys updated if you are interested, and will take pics of anything I think you might like.
If you wind up in the Valle D'Aosta, you might try the restaurant La Clotze in the hamlet Planpincieux, about 10 km. outside of Courmayeur. For us, it has been by far the best restaurant in the Valle D'Aosta.
You'll need a car to get there as you will in order to get to any "country side" restaurants in that region or Piemonte.
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Gusto. You have to be kidding me. The most inept service imaginable in the Osteria. Go at your own risk.
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I love this seasonal cool weather! Puts me in mind for good baked pasta dishes. The one I made recently from Schwartz's book hit the spot right on. It is a baked pasta full of mushrooms (dry and fresh...love those dry porcinis), a meaty ragu, peas with pancetta and the whole thing is covered with a rich inch thick snow cap of balsamella. Delicious stuff. The only devaition from the recipe was in using spaghetti instead of tagliatelle and I also used homemade crumbled sausage instead of ground beef.
And where were the peas from?
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Gosh, what a dismal picture you paint Fortedei,
but it brings up a good point. We have been discussing traditional vs cutting edge in an all-or-nothing kind of way, but I think there is another level which is practiced by most of the upper end restaurants in Italy and certainly by the four examples I gave above. The chefs take the traditional food and present it in a modern way, applying modern, artistic talent to their preparations and platings. It is not really cutting-edge in the terms of molecular cuisine but it is modern in a similar way to what is going on in France. I think some of us here think traditional Italian means red-checkered table cloths and big platters of pasta covered in ragu served by mustachioed Italian Mamas and washed down with carafes of unpalatable Chianti. This of course exists in the simple restaurants but almost all the upscale restaurants really do make an effort to be modern and creative, even if they do it with the traditional recipes and ingredients. It is a very satisfying mixture. Even if molecular cuisine is absent, you can't say that modern Italian cooking in upscale restaurants is the same as it ever was. The restaurants that I gave links to above are all doing a very nice job.
On the contrary, Swiss Chef. I have never seen so many good places in Italy as there are today; particularly, but not limited to, trattorie. In my mind there are more chefs who are doing the critical things to make a ristorante or trattoria a wonderful place to have an excellent meal. These are: staying within one's sphere of competence as far as execution of dishes; having seasonal menus; serving dishes that reflect the region where the place is located; having a good wine list and good wine glasses; having a good service staff; having a non stuffy atmosphere in the dining room; true enthusiasm on the part of the owners.
There are more places in Italy today that meet these critiria than I've seen in the last 35 years.
Regards,
Fortedei
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To be clear, I have no stake in whether or not Italy has a thriving contemporary cuisine scene. What I do know is that people posting on this topic, like fortedei, are saying things like "I’m talking about the high end of Italian society in terms of financial resources, the only Italians who would even think of going to expensive cutting edge restaurants… and they don’t do it and have no interest in doing it. They might do it when they go to New York or London or Spain, but they are not frequenting those types of restaurants in Italy and never will." And now, a couple of hundred posts into the topic, some folks are saying, oh, sure, there's tons of cutting-edge cuisine in Italy -- if I walk out my door I trip over so many cutting-edge restaurants I don't know what to do with myself. If the latter is true, I think that's fantastic.
I don’t like to be the bearer of bad news, but there are not …” tons of cutting-edge cuisine in Italy -- if I walk out my door I trip over so many cutting-edge restaurants.”
There perhaps are many restaurants that say they’re cutting edge, prepare a few dishes that taste differently from what the chefs have been doing and are plated with little dots around the edges of the plate or have “ colorful slashes” on the plate squeezed from the plastic bottles. There are any number of restaurants that now have some dishes that involve foam, but a bit of foam, does not a cutting edge restaurant make. There are restaurants that serve pasta from Mason jars (in the city of Imperia, no less!!) and there are others ( in the depth of Lombardia) that should remain true to their roots, but instead serve a “carpaccio di arogosta con fonduta al Gorgonzola, a dish copied from a chef near Torino.
The fact is that quite a few restaurants want to be “cutting edge” but have no ability to do anything remotely edible. There are very very few Adrias in the world and probably none in Italy. This was the same thing that occurred, as I’ve pointed out here in detail before, with regard to nuova cucicna in the 80s and early 90s. Many Italian chefs tried to copy what some of the (great) chefs of France were doing and failed miserably. It was a brief five or seven year period and then it was gone ( a piece of kiwi on a plate, did not nuova cucina make). It was gone for two reasons.
First, these chefs had no classical training to carry it out. They had no knowledge of French technique. All they knew was what they read in Italian food magazines. Many of the chefs had rarely been out of their home provinces, let alone in France for any period of time. Even today, as far as I’m aware, aside from Marchesi, there are only two Italian chefs among the top 25 restaurants in Italy who have spent extensive periods of time in France learning technique. I mean true stages.
The second reason was that, while a few Italians (those few that go out to eat in “highly rated restaurants") found nuova cucina amusing at first, they soon grew tired of it because they didn’t want to eat that way. I can think of one very prominent place in Emilia Romagna that eventually realized what was causing a lack of local customers (you can’t count on Americans and Japanese from October through April)… and changed. I saw it happen with many of the other “top restaurants” of the time.
Yes, there are cutting edge restaurants in Italy. However, even you Fat Guy, simply wouldn’t want to have a second “cutting edge meal” in 99% of them. Trust me!
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I've been to Madonnina and Uliassi. Other posts have indicated what I thought of them... not much. I don't particularly like to be served green bread.
Very helpful as always.
But...
Also, are there any restaurants on the list that you enjoy?And if not, was your sole purpose in publishing this list here to say "What a terrible list of the 'best' restaurants in Italy"? Like eGullet user "Man" above, I'm just curious to understand a bit of your motivation, I suppose.
I don't want to answer for Fortedei but I think the insinuation is that there are others that are better or deserve it more.
Do you know the origins of GR? You might be surprised! GR is the food and wine commentary from the Manifesto news paper of the extreme left party in Italy. It is (in my, and many others opinion) steeped in politics. I can tell you with good authority that the wine makers that continually earn one, two and three Bicchieri are certainly not the finest wine makers in Italy. Many wine makers are sick-to-death of the whole GR/Slow Food political bullshit. Large numbers of winemakers that I respect greatly, swear open hatred of these two organizations and I can say that I have regularly tasted seriously inferior wines that continually earn Biccheri.
My advice is to take all this GR stuff with a grain of salt!
Geez..count me as surprised. I've often wondered about the GR ratings, and I know about the Slow Food issues, but I really had no idea about the GR extreme left connection. And the COOP is run by Communists... god, this can be a confusing country!!
Foredei, Erba Luna is not at this level. We are striving for good food, comfortable surroundings, and really just finding our 'voice'.
I've been to Mondonnina, and liked it. I remember being awestruck at the intricacy of the food presentations, but honestly I can't remember the food. It was a strange time in life....
I've also been to La Pineta, and that was completely unremarkable.
I'd love to get to LeCalandre.
And, I appreciate your list. I'm sticking it up on my wall, next to the map.
Judith, I was kidding about Erba Luna. There was the smiley face (in type) after my comment. I hope to get to your place in the Spring and see what it's like.
I noted the comment about La Pineta. I think this is a perfect example of what pleases one person doesn't necessarily please another... and neither one, of course, is right or wrong because there is no right or wrong. It's a matter of taste.
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Well, at the top of my list is Erba Luna
In all seriousness, go to Miramonte L'Alto in Concesio and then Vissani and tell me which has the better food, and which resturant you like best. My bet is that you'll like one and dislike the other. Go to Paolo e Barbara in San Remo and then to Madonnina in Senigallia and tell me which has the better food and which restaurant you like best. Tell me which chef, in those two restaurants, is the more skilled?
Go to La Pinetta in Marina di Bibbona and then go a little way along the coast to Gambero Rosso. Tell us which restaurant you think serves the better food, which restaurant has the better service and which restaurant you would rather eat in. Go to Amerigo in Savigno and then Da Caino and tell me which one has the more skilled preparations, the better food and the better service? Go to Cervere in Piemonte and then to Don Alfonso and do the same thing. I'm curious to hear what you think.
Best,
Fortedei
Fortadei, since you seem to have such a grasp on how and why you find many of the above restaurants to be over-rated, I'm curious to get your thoughts on the following restaurants, the only ones from the list which I've been to at this point:
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Le Calandre
Rubano (PD)
chef Massimiliano Alajmo
56 cucina -18 cantina - 9 servizio
9 ambiente - 2 bonus
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Osteria Francescana
Modena
chef Massimo Bottura
54 cucina - 17 cantina - 9 servizio
9 ambiente - 2 bonus
91
La Madonnina del Pescatore
Senigallia (AN)
chef Moreno Cedroni
54 cucina - 17 cantina - 9 servizio
9 ambiente - 2 bonus
90
Uliassi
Senigallia (AN)
chef Mauro Uliassi
54 cucina - 16 cantina - 8 servizio
9 ambiente - 3 bonus
Also, are there any restaurants on the list that you enjoy?
And if not, was your sole purpose in publishing this list here to say "What a terrible list of the 'best' restaurants in Italy"? Like eGullet user "Man" above, I'm just curious to understand a bit of your motivation, I suppose.
The food served to an unknown diner is not nearly as important as the plate served to an important long-time, regular customer. No restaurant guide can factor this in and it paves the way for quite mediocre restaurants to excel to astounding levels from time to time... for the right people.I could not agree more. But this is hardly a phenomenon unique to Italy, so I just don't see it as justification that Italian restaurant ratings/rankings are inherently different than those in any other country.
I've been to Madonnina and Uliassi. Other posts have indicated what I thought of them... not much. I don't particularly like to be served green bread.
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Fortedei, just idle curiosity, and because you have such strong opinions, what would be your top ten restaurants?
And please, anyone else who has a list....pipe up.
OK, I'm not just idle and curious. I have one precious day off per week and I'm thinking about making pilgrimages to some of these temples of cuisine.
Well, at the top of my list is Erba Luna
In all seriousness, go to Miramonte L'Alto in Concesio and then Vissani and tell me which has the better food, and which resturant you like best. My bet is that you'll like one and dislike the other. Go to Paolo e Barbara in San Remo and then to Madonnina in Senigallia and tell me which has the better food and which restaurant you like best. Tell me which chef, in those two restaurants, is the more skilled?
Go to La Pinetta in Marina di Bibbona and then go a little way along the coast to Gambero Rosso. Tell us which restaurant you think serves the better food, which restaurant has the better service and which restaurant you would rather eat in. Go to Amerigo in Savigno and then Da Caino and tell me which one has the more skilled preparations, the better food and the better service? Go to Cervere in Piemonte and then to Don Alfonso and do the same thing. I'm curious to hear what you think.
Best,
Fortedei
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Piazza Duomo is the only concensus "joke" on that list, as nearly as I can tell. I have not eaten at all of them, but I can assure you that there is nothing "funny" about Combal.zero, Villa Crespi or Guido, if you know the first thing about fine dining. And Guido had a rocky, uneven start a few years in its new location, and had to earn back the respect that the original Guido once had. And did it by pairing up Lidia's son Ugo with the chef of a predominantly seafood ristorante. Methinks that you need to get out more in Italia, fortedei...
I do get out in Italia Bill; I live there. I've seen "the dining scene" over a 35 year period, up close and personal. Don't be so condescending; it doesn't flatter you.
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Surprise surprise! The first sentence speaks of the predominant thoughts. This from L'Espresso. Pathetic.
"La 'nuova cucina' italiana' - ha detto Enzo Vizzari curatore della Guida - è una realtà vincente".
Ecco i magnifici tredici secondo la classifica dell'Espresso: 1)'Gambero Rosso', San Vincenzo (Li) 19.5/20 2)'Vissani', Baschi (Tr) 19.5/20 3)'Le calandre', Rubano (Pd) 19.5/20 4)'Enoteca Pinchiorri', Firenze 19/20 5)'Pergola Cavalieri Hilton', Roma 19/20 6)'La Francescana', Modena 19/20 7)'Dal Pescatore', Canneto sull Oglio (Mn) 18,5/20 8)'Combal.Zero', Rivoli (To) 18.5/20 9)'Cracco', Milano 18/20 10)'Miramonti l'Altro', Concesio (Bs) 18/20 11)'Perbellini', Isola Rizza (Vr) 18/20 12)'La Torre del Saracino', Vico Equense (Na) 18/20 13)'Duomo', Ragusa 18/20 A Davide Scabin di 'Combal.Zero', che sale da 17.5/20 a 18.5/20, va il premio Domini Villae Lanata per il 'Pranzo dell'anno'. Fanno il loro ingresso nell'empireo la 'Torre del saracino' e il Duomo.
Molte novità, con entrate e uscite, anche fra i 'due cappelli', cioé i locali con punteggio compreso fra 16,5 e 17,5: sono 48 (51 l anno scorso) e alle soglie dei 'tre cappelli', con 17,5 si trovano la Madonnina del Pescatore e Uliassi di Senigallia e Villa Crespi di Orta San Giulio. Sono 228 i locali con 'un cappello', cioé con un punteggio compreso fra 15 e 16 (246 l anno scorso). Sono in tutto 289 i locali con almeno 'un cappello' così suddivisi: 56 in Lombardia; 36 in Piemonte; 27 in Campania; 24 in Toscana; 20 in Emilia Romagna e Lazio; 18 in Veneto; 13 in Liguria; 10 nelle Marche; 9 in Sicilia. Spiccano fra le regioni la continua e marcata ascesa della Campania e la ripresa vistosa della crescita del Piemonte; segnano il passo la Lombardia, che pure resta nettamente la regione leader, la Toscana, l'Emilia Romagna e il Veneto.
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The usual suspects. What a joke. It is the same as the Michelin keeping Bocuse in. Notice the 19 given for the cantina at San Vicenzo. I guess Pierangelini allows the inspectors to order certain wines from the wine list that he has marked "not for sale" (or some such notation) and doesn't allow everyone to order.
Girone dei Golosi Mangiare
Tre Forchette 2008
Ecco i nomi dei venticinque chef premiati con le Tre Forchette sulla guida Ristoranti d'Italia del Gambero rosso 2008 .
Tre Gamberi 2008
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Gambero Rosso
San Vincenzo (LI)
chef Fulvio Pierangelini
57 cucina - 19 cantina - 8 servizio
9 ambiente - 3 bonus
95
Vissani
Baschi (TR)
chef Gianfranco Vissani
56 cucina - 17 cantina - 10 servizio
10 ambiente - 2 bonus
94
Le Calandre
Rubano (PD)
chef Massimiliano Alajmo
56 cucina -18 cantina - 9 servizio
9 ambiente - 2 bonus
93
Enoteca Pinchiorri
Firenze
chef Annie Feolde
52 cucina - 20 cantina - 9 servizio
9 ambiente - 3 bonus
93
La Pergola de l'Hotel Rome Cavalieri Hilton
Roma
chef Heinz Beck
53 cucina - 19 cantina - 10 servizio
9 ambiente - 2 bonus
93
Dal Pescatore
Canneto sull'Oglio (MN)
chef Nadia Santini
52 cucina - 18 cantina - 10 servizio
10 ambiente - 3 bonus
92
Cracco Peck
Milano
chef Carlo Cracco
54 cucina - 19 cantina - 9 servizio
8 ambiente - 2 bonus
92
Don Alfonso 1890
Massa Lubrense (NA)
chef Alfonso Iaccarino
52 cucina -18 cantina - 9 servizio
10 ambiente - 3 bonus
92
La Torre del Saracino
Vico Equense (NA)
chef Gennaro Esposito
55 cucina - 18 cantina - 8 servizio
9 ambiente - 2 bonus
91
Osteria Francescana
Modena
chef Massimo Bottura
54 cucina - 17 cantina - 9 servizio
9 ambiente - 2 bonus
91
Laite
Sappada (BL)
chef Fabrizia Meroi
53 cucina - 17 cantina - 9 servizio
9 ambiente - 3 bonus
91
La Madonnina del Pescatore
Senigallia (AN)
chef Moreno Cedroni
54 cucina - 17 cantina - 9 servizio
9 ambiente - 2 bonus
91
Perbellini
Isola Rizza (VR)
chef Giancarlo Perbellini
53 cucina - 18 cantina - 9 servizio
8 ambiente - 3 bonus
90
Villa Crespi
Orta San Giulio (NO)
chef Antonino Cannavacciuolo
53 cucina - 17 cantina - 9 servizio
9 ambiente - 3 bonus
90
Antonello Colonna
Labìco (Roma)
chef Antonello Colonna
51 cucina - 18 cantina - 9 servizio
9 ambiente - 3 bonus
90
Arquade de l'Hotel Villa del Quar
San Pietro in Cariano (VR)
chef Bruno Barbieri
52 cucina - 17 cantina - 9 servizio
9 ambiente - 3 bonus
90
Da Caino
Manciano (GR)
chef Valeria Piccini
53 cucina - 19 cantina - 8 servizio
8 ambiente - 2 bonus
90
Il Canto de l'Hotel Certosa di Maggiano
Siena
chef Paolo Lopriore
54 cucina - 16 cantina - 9 servizio
9 ambiente - 2 bonus
90
Combal.zero
Rivoli (TO)
chef Davide Scabin
54 cucina - 16 cantina - 9 servizio
9 ambiente - 2 bonus
90
Duomo
Ragusa
chef Ciccio Sultano
53 cucina - 18 cantina - 9 servizio
8 ambiente - 2 bonus
90
Guido
Bra (CN)
chef Ugo Alciati, Savino Mongelli
52 cucina - 17 cantina - 9 servizio
10 ambiente - 2 bonus
90
Gualtiero Marchesi
Erbusco (BS)
chef Gualtiero Marchesi
54 cucina - 17 cantina - 8 servizio
10 ambiente - 1 bonus
90
Piazza Duomo
Alba (CN)
chef Enrico Crippa
54 cucina - 16 cantina - 9 servizio
8 ambiente - 3 bonus
90
St. Hubertus de l'Hotel Rosa Alpina
Badia/Abtei (BZ)
chef Norbert Niederkofler
52 cucina - 17 cantina - 9 servizio
9 ambiente - 3 bonus
90
Uliassi
Senigallia (AN)
chef Mauro Uliassi
54 cucina - 16 cantina - 8 servizio
9 ambiente - 3 bonus
Articoli Collegati
Ristoranti d'Italia del Gambero Rosso 2008
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Thanks to both of you for the advice. This place sounds fantastic. I've cut and pasted it for my files as we are heading that way in November. Many thanks.
Cheers
Ah, Alberto Bettini still doesn’t get it. Either he hasn’t heard of Senigallia or he doesn’t care (or both). No molecular magic, no weird combinations of food, no green bread (as Cedroni does at Madonnina in Senigallia). Just great Bolognese food (and he hasn’t let the Gambero Rosso’s Tre Gamberi go to his head) at its best. So for Saturday night, antipasto - porcini freschi on a little passato of borlotti (and a plate of warm tigelle) Then the lasagna al forno which is not to be missed, and the tortellini in brodo, something we never have, but the forcemeat in the pasta was not to be believed in terms of taste. Hunting season just started so one of the day's specials – fagiano, the real thing, with the dark meat stewed in wine, and the breast meat browned in a pan and then roasted in the oven. Moist… and nice and gamey. Baccala 3 ways - bolognese (poached and served with olive oil on lemon slices); classico (stewed in a light tomato sauce); and mantecato. Fabulous. We finished with semifreddo di zucca with amaretti, and of course Alberto’s own nocino. A 2003 barbera from La Stoppa. Wonderful place with Alberto and Susanna providing a restaurant experience not to be missed in terms of great ingredients, skillfully prepared, plated well, served nicely by a staff that wants you to have an enjoyable time (and doesn’t point out each ingredient in the dish), a wonderful wine list and very moderate prices (our meal was 110 Euros). Definitely worth the detour.
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But I'm not sure that "generic" is the right word, or that it's being used correctly in this discussion.
"Generic" was used in the sense of "general/not specific identitiy". I said earlier that if I am eating in Italy then I want to eat something that is Italian and delicious, not something generically delicious. Maybe this is where Italy fails on the fine dining scene, not generic enough?
I think that at some point FG (?) mentioned that at least one present cutting edge chef produces food of the highest international standard without in reference to local food traditions. In this discussion I have trouble keeping track of what level of cooking we are talking about. I'm not at all sure that restuarants serving food of the highest international standard for a restricted group of diners can be compared usefully to fiaschetteria, osteria, ristorante, trattoria, taberna....
When we are talking about "Contemporay food", does this mean "International Modern" of the moment or are we talking about the development of at new wave of "Contemporay Italian"?
I think that FG is correct, restaurants at international cutting edge have no need to have a basis in tradional cooking, and in part the emphasis on technique and ingredient quality excludes this. Which isn't to say that inspiration can't come from local dishes or traditions either. What is proberly more important at this level is originality of thought and execution of the dish. For example, I notice that Robuchon is now being criticized for selling dishes that are too heavily influenced by other chefs creations. No matter how delicious these dishes are, they are not his "original creations".
In terms of fiaschetteria, osteria, ristorante, trattoria and taberna it could be possible to contruct some sort of hierarchy in terms how they relate to one another and what sort of food they produce, but for the vast majoritory of them "delicious" is going to be a much more important criterion then "originality".
Getting back to the original question "Tradition v. Contemporary Italian Cuisine, Is it a conflict or a building block?", I feel that on an intellectual level that their is no conflict between the two, but also at a high end international dining level there is no requirement for any real overlap either.
On the otherhand what Italy does have in vast amounts is food that fits many peoples definition of "Delicious". One conflict that I see is that some individuals that have a primary interest in high end international dining level food is the way in which all this delicious Italian food is discussed is in the negative. Italian food culture has failed in someway because it hasn't (and maybe can't) produce the required high end international dining experience. I think that the view that Italy has failed to deliver the high end international dining experience and the view that traditional food in Italy is delicious are both correct, I don't see the conflict in the two opinions.
What I think is an interesting question is if it is true that Italy has failed to deliver the high end international dining experience, why is this so? A few years ago I would have said it was because the tradional food were so good that there wasn't a niche for the high end international dining experience. I felt then that this type of dining came from regions where the local traditional food culture was either degraded or never really existed. To a certain extent I have changed my views on this, I don't see a conflict with the development of an international dining scene and having strong local food traditions.
I don't have a simple explanation of why Italy doesn't have this high end international dining culture, and I don't think there is a simple answer.
I'm curious what you mean when you say "high end international dining experience."
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I did enjoy it, especially visiting vin jaune producers. But the best restaurant in the Jura is Jean-Paul Jeunet in Arbois, and he's a great example of a chef who couples tradition with innovation. Moreover, I don't think anybody in the Jura thinks Jean-Paul Jeunet's inventiveness is a threat to tradition. All over France, there are examples of traditional and contemporary cuisine coexisting. And there are examples of the same all over Japan, India, China and most anyplace else with a great traditional cuisine. Yet Italy seems determined not to join the club. Maybe it's in part because too many people are confusing McDonald's and fast food with the artistry of people like Adria and Gagnaire. Talk about throwing out the baby with the bathwater.
Or maybe Italians, in general, prefer not to eat what Adria and Gagnaire are cooking. With taste, like faith, there is no right or wrong.
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FG. How much time have you spent in Tuscany?
Less than you. And I'm happy to defer to all your factual statements about what's going on in Tuscany, unless they're contradicted by others who've spent a lot of time there or by credible print sources.
Now I get to ask you a question: what's your point? Do you think culinary tradition should be unchanging? Or do you agree with me that culinary evolution and innovation are great things?
Culinary tradition is always changing. Nothing is static. Evolution, however, takes a lot of time. When "evolution" happens on a time table which is speeded up, most often it ends up being a fad; fads happen very quickly and they disappear equally so. We'll see if what has happened very recently with ten restaurants in Italy is something that remains longer term, and becomes a tradition in some restaurants , or whether it is a fad. As I said in a prior post, very few Italians go to these ten restaurants and those that go to the others that are trying something different, never go back because they can’t stand different food which is poorly prepared. That is not what Italians do. I saw the nuova cucina, up close and personal in the 80s. At the time, food magazines and foodies, particularly in America and France thought it was a great break with a cuisine which was too traditional (and Italian restaurateurs readily went along, because if the French are doing it “we can do it better”) . Actually, Beppe Cantarelli and Franco Colombani had begun going back to regional cuisine just a few years before, so nuova cucina was trying to change something which hadn’t fully changed yet. It flamed out very quickly and a lot of restaurants got hurt.
Innovation, in food and other areas, is a great thing in the hands of people who know what they are doing. Unfortunately, most of the top restaurants in Italy (lets say, as rated by the Gambero Rosso, if for no other reason than that guide is a good starting point for the “top” restaurants) have no clue as to what they are doing. Lets be honest; cooking technique, as practiced in Italian restaurants, leaves a lot to be desired (and I’m a fervent Italophile), certainly as compared to that in France. Notice, I’m only speaking of technique, not taste nor combination of ingredients.
We can start with pastry and work our way from there (on the other hand it is truly pathetic when a French chef tries to make pasta or risotto… truly pathetic). France has it all over Italy in terms of technique. As far as I’m aware, only two chefs in Italy, again lets say in the top 20 of Gambero Rosso, had a great deal, if not most, of their training in France. These two, by the way, are head and shoulders above their peers as far as technique goes, and both have Italian souls, a great combination, although one of these two has certainly gone over to the other side with regard to fusion (perhaps in order to get a higher rating in the guides).
Unfortunately in Italy, those who try to innovate, in most cases, are just mucking around. For every Calandre (I haven’t been there, but I’m assuming from comments, that he knows what he is doing) and there are few of them, there are many Fulmines. When you see what Caino has become, you weep for what she was (which was special). Innovation in cooking can be great if you’ve intensively learned the basics of cooking. Most of the “top” chefs in Italy have learned the basics of a very basic (but simply wonderful in my mind) cuisine. When they try to do something more, for the most part, they are just not up to par. Innovation for innovation’s sake is just foolishness and those who are trying to innovate, and are without technical competence, and are not staying within their sphere of competence, are condemned to repeat the failures of the past. It won’t be pleasant to see.
FG. Have you looked back at the history of culinary tradition of restaurants in Italy and do you agree with me that the only lasting influence in the last 50 years, so far, has been a return to regionalism?
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You used the term ignorant foreigners, I didn’t use that pejorative term. I also didn’t say anything about foreigners writing about traditional saltless bread. You did. Nor did I say “that Tuscan bread is traditionally diverse.” Nor did I say anything about wine in conjunction with that. In fact, I said beware of using the words traditional and Tuscan together.
What I did say is that there are many breads available and that senza sale is one of them and that, IMHO, senza sale goes better in certain dishes than others.
What you said was:
Most foreigners think that all Tuscan bread is saltless. As I said in an earlier post, nothing could be further from the truth. Even great cooking luminaries, or I should say those who think they are, make the mistake about Tuscan bread. One who fancies himself as such, Jason Epstein, late of Random House, wrote an article in The New Yorker about Tuscany. Mr. Epstein disparaged Tuscan bread because it was saltless. Clearly, Mr. Epstein was under a mis- assumption about Tuscan bread and probably wasn't smart enough to buy anything but senza sale.and
Certain foods go better with other foods and certainly senza sale goes better with certain dishes. I happen to like senza sale as one, but only one, of the breads from a vast variety that I can choose from. Some of my Forte neighbors eat mostly senza sale and for them it is the bread of choice.An anology might be with wine. Certain wines e.g. gewurtztramminers, go better wth certain foods. A gewurtztramminer is not a specialty item, it is a tradional wine (of several areas), but it seems to go best with certain dishes and in fact is used as such within the area.
I think my characterization of your comments was entirely accurate.
I’d be willing to bet that if you tasted senza sale from a particular bakery in Rio Magno and then tasted the exact same bread from the same bakery, except that this one had salt, your batting average in terms of telling them apart would be no better than pure chance.So is it your position that bread made with and without salt tastes exactly the same?
My position is that they taste different, and that bread with salt tastes better. For whatever reason -- shortage, or the old story of the bakers' protest against the tax on salt -- it seems that saltless bread was the traditional bread of Tuscany, or at least large parts thereof. I don't see why we need to try to obscure that history by making excuses about there being no such thing as Tuscany, or by saying you can go to a modern Tuscan bakery and get a lot of different breads. You can eat at McDonald's in Tuscany too, but that doesn't make it traditional. It seems to me that throughout Tuscany people have simply realized that, except perhaps in a few special cases where it's paired with very salty food, bread with salt tastes better. So the tradition was set aside in favor of something better. That's what we should do with traditions when better things come along, unless we're just masochists and want to suffer with saltless bread long after salt has become cheap and abundant.
FG. How much time have you spent in Tuscany?
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So, fortedei, we've established that ignorant foreigners writing books about Italy often say that Tuscan bread is traditionally saltless. And we have you saying that's not true: that Tuscan bread is traditionally diverse, like wine, with an array of salted and unsalted breads being paired with the right dish. I'd love to see some Italian sources to back up this claim, because it comes as a surprise to me.
The reason I think it's relevant to get to the bottom of that issue is that it makes a point about tradition. If it turns out that, historically, bread in Tuscany -- or in specific areas of Tuscany -- was saltless, but that now saltless bread is only one of many choices, paired like wine with appropriate dishes, then what we have is another good example of tradition being cast aside in favor of superior innovation. If, however, Tuscan bread has always been diverse, then that's another matter.
Not that I'm convinced that bread without salt is ever a good idea. Eating bread with salty food is no substitute for bringing out bread's flavor by incorporating salt into the dough. It's not like most breads are salty. The amount of salt is small. But it's a significant flavor enhancer, just as it is in most cooking. Maybe I've never had the best, brilliantly made saltless bread -- the one that convinces people that there's something to this sort of bread -- but as a theoretical matter it's hard to see how it could be better than the same bread made with a little salt.
You used the term ignorant foreigners, I didn’t use that pejorative term. I also didn’t say anything about foreigners writing about traditional saltless bread. You did. Nor did I say “that Tuscan bread is traditionally diverse.” Nor did I say anything about wine in conjunction with that. In fact, I said beware of using the words traditional and Tuscan together.
What I did say is that there are many breads available and that senza sale is one of them and that, IMHO, senza sale goes better in certain dishes than others.
Also note than salted bread was probably not an option, certainly not on a very broad scale, until after the Second World War. Salt was very expensive and was regulated in terms of availability. You can see the vestiges of this in the signs and permit numbers on salumerie store fronts. Tradition might not have been cast aside “in favor of superior innovation” (and in fact it wasn’t, because senza sale is still around). It might simply be that the cost of a raw ingredient became much less expensive.
If bread without salt is, in your mind, never a good idea, well that’s what you believe. Others may feel differently and neither one is correct because there is no “correct” answer, just a matter of taste.
I’ve written something about wine, on this site, (and others have agreed with it). I’ve done something with two well schooled wine tasters (one of whose favorite restaurant in Italy is Gambero Rosso... what a shame). Cover the labels and these two guys don’t have a clue, either as to grape or (even) country of origin. I’m sure I could do the same with Parker. Bevi Il Vino non l’etichette as we say here. I’d be willing to bet that if you tasted senza sale from a particular bakery in Rio Magno and then tasted the exact same bread from the same bakery, except that this one had salt, your batting average in terms of telling them apart would be no better than pure chance.
In Italy, perhaps not in Spain or France, tradition evolves very slowly and locally, and fads happen very quickly and disappear over the same period of time.
FG. Our closest friends in Italy, whom we’ve known for 25 years, own what is arguably the best known restaurant in the country (among foodies from all countries; certainly the “average” Italian, except perhaps the local police chief, has no interest in eating there and couldn’t afford it even if they wanted to). These are people who know that they have to have one fusion dish on the menu to satisfy the ”Guide Italiani”, but they have a visceral reaction again doing it. They realize this is not going to last because they saw it all with nuova cucina 20 years ago. Other very good friends who own what will be the next very hot restaurant (now just below the top in the Gambero Rosso), and will surpass, by far, their very good friends in Senagallia (the restaurant that puts green bread on the table… can’t remember if it is saltless or not) and will achieve the highest rankings (whatever that means)… but will eventually go flat.
Italians are different from other Europeans. Italy was unified very late compared with the others. Pisa, Lucca and Firenze are still not unified. This particular thread has not cast tradition in the context of Italian culinary history. Theory is one thing, but everyday living is another. Look locally, for if one doesn’t, this site may have many opinions, but very few of them will bear any resemblance to reality.
More to come re putting things in context.
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So you're using saltless bread as, basically, a specialty item. But was it traditionally a specialty item, or was it traditionally the mainstay of the Tuscan bread bakery? There are lots of foods available in Tuscany today, sure, but is this rich array of salted breads traditional? Or have Tuscan bakeries slowly relegated saltless bread to the status of specialty item in response to the evolving palates of people who've tasted bread with salt and rejected saltless bread for most purposes?
I've only been coming to Italy for only 35 years, so I can't speak to the time before then. Breads with salt, a vast array of them, have been around at least since then. As far as using it as a specialty item... not really. Certain foods go better with other foods and certainly senza sale goes better with certain dishes. I happen to like senza sale as one, but only one, of the breads from a vast variety that I can choose from. Some of my Forte neighbors eat mostly senza sale and for them it is the bread of choice.
An anology might be with wine. Certain wines e.g. gewurtztramminers, go better wth certain foods. A gewurtztramminer is not a specialty item, it is a tradional wine (of several areas), but it seems to go best with certain dishes and in fact is used as such within the area.
As far as what you said "traditionally the mainstay of the Tuscan bread bakery", it might be wise to use tradition and "Tuscany" very carefully. Broadly speaking there are a few, very few, "Tuscan" traditions. Certainly we Americans think of "Tuscan food traditions", pretty much as we think about food in Northern Italy, when in fact food and dishes from one region, and within the region, may have little or nothing in common with other regions (and in fact often don't). "Northern Italy" as a whole, is merely a geographic notation, having very little to do with a cohesive food tradition. There are exceptions of course, but generally speaking this is the case. In fact, the same dish (or bread since we're talking about that here), may bear little resemblance from Forte dei Marmi to Arezzo, from Cecina to Castellina in Chianti. Just think of the hundred (many more?) ways that foccacia is made in Tuscany. There is no traditional Tuscan focccacia. To paraphrase Tip O'Neill, all food traditions are (very) LOCAL.
It has always been very interesting to me to see Tuscan (or Italian) cookbooks in English. The best will most often say the small area within the region where the recipe comes from. The poorer books will most often omit any mention of this and simply call it "Tuscan" or Northern Italian or Lombardian etc.
And now back to start preparing part of tonight's dinner... grilled porcini (porcini from the Garfagnana gathered, not Slovenia).
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I like pane senza sale very much, depending on how it is made (well or poorly) and most importantly what it is used for. For instance, IMHO, you do not use salted bread for crostini al ginepro. The anchovies, the meat broth and the brine in the capers, provide more than enough salt for it to become noticeable, so you use senza sale. You would not use salted bread for pappa al pomodoro or panzanella because salt is added to the ingredients, so you use senza sale. You wouldn't use salted bread for fettunta because salt is added to the ingredients, so you use senza sale.
Most foreigners think that all Tuscan bread is saltless. As I said in an earlier post, nothing could be further from the truth. Even great cooking luminaries, or I should say those who think they are, make the mistake about Tuscan bread. One who fancies himself as such, Jason Epstein, late of Random House, wrote an article in The New Yorker about Tuscany. Mr. Epstein disparaged Tuscan bread because it was saltless. Clearly, Mr. Epstein was under a mis- assumption about Tuscan bread and probably wasn't smart enough to buy anything but senza sale. If he came to Forte dei Marmi and went to "Mario's", he would see that most Tuscan bread is salted and delicious.
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I don't understand your comment "You can add bread with no salt to that list."
Could you explain it?
I'm pretty sure FG is saying that bread with no salt, like hathor's example of vegetables cooked to obliteration, is a defect in the cuisine. I tend to agree that there is plenty of room for improvement in both cases.
Adam Balic is correct. I wanted to see what FG had to say.
Pane senza sale is a very small portion of the bread that is available in Tuscany.
In the town where I live, we probably have 35 different kinds of "Tuscan bread" (whatever that means) available daily. Only one of them, pane senza sale, is saltless. The others, whether it is pane cotto al legna, pane scuro or any of the others, has a normal amount of salt.
Opinions on and Uses for Cottechino?
in Italy: Cooking & Baking
Posted
You forgot the mostarda.