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Scott_S

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  1. Here is an interesting article (from the archives) that Dave the Cook wrote about the creation of teflon. It is quite entertaining and informative. Here it is: The birth of Teflon... and other talking frog stories. Scott
  2. Ed, I see your point. However, I don't think that most people (at least here in the States) automatically assume that modern technology is bad. I do think that they are suspicious of corporations because of the poor track record corporations have in looking out for the well-being of their customers (the list is too long to get into right now). I think that the main thing that I see coming out of this is an increased awareness of how hot pans should get (or not, as the case may be) before there can be some health issues. If nothing else, this is good information for people who have birds... especially expensive birds. As for the medical vs. flaking off teflon, I still question that this is a valid comparison. Medical teflon has not been submitted to high temperatures. The teflon that is flaking off probably has been. Such high temperatures may well affect the chemical composition of the teflon. In addition, to get teflon to stick, a "primer" is used. It is unclear what the chemical composition of this primer is and how it reacts to the same high temperatures. IMO, based on what I have seen, some type of temperature sensitive paint (or metal, etc.) should be incorporated into pan designs that change color when the temperatures exceed safe limits. Apparently there is already a brand that has a small disk that turns red when the pan has reached its pre-heat temperature (T-Fal?), but not one that indicates its maximum temperature. Of course, this would only be valid for non-stick cookware. Then again, no one asked me... Scott
  3. Here is some information about Teflon I have been able to track down: From eGullet.com: Teflon info on eGullet.com From DuPont: DuPont Autograph Teflon Coating <-- See also links on left side of page How does Teflon work? Teflon Consumer Products Help From Environmental Working Group: (anti-DuPont/Teflon site) EWG General Teflon Information EWG - DuPont 1967 Teflon tests EWG - "Canaries in the Kitchen" EWG - Pan temperature testing EWG - Teflon Temperature Graphic <-- See also .pdf file with references From USA Today: Teflon pans can create sticky situation when overheated The majority of the articles deal with the dangers of chemicals used to create teflon. However, I have also included some information regarding the dangers of high-temp mis-uses of teflon pans. The main problem I have with the articles is that they do not indicate the power in watts or btu required to achieve the various temps listed. FWIW, while I still plan on using non-stick pans, I am going to buy an inexpensive infrared thermometer so I can understand how my stove works with the pans and what temps it reaches (I also have other uses... ). Another thing I'm tempted to get is a black iron pan to see how they work. One other thing about the medical use of teflon. Much of the information regarding teflon talks about how chemically stable it is... in a given temperature range. The medical use of teflon falls squarely in that range, which is why it is so useful. Where I have seen indications that even DuPont says it can be a problem is out on the upper fringes of that temp range, where high temp cooking goes on. Because of this, that comparison isn't as useful as we'd like. This sure has turned out to be one heck of an informative thread! Thanks! Scott
  4. This is exactly why I wish that I had an infrared thermometer. That way I would be able to tell exactly what is going on. It would be easy to tell exactly what temps are being reached other than just "cool", "warm", "hot", "very hot", "too hot", and "woohoo that's hot!" Perhaps you can clarify for me exactly why non-stick pans are not that good for searing? I seem to be able to do it very well on the non-stick I own and they are very cheap pans from Wal-Mart. The same questions apply for sauteing and deglazing. What is it about a non-stick pan that makes them inappropriate for doing these cooking techniques? And why would there be a more limited contact between a non-stick pan and the food than with a "stick" pan? Maybe it is because I'm not a chef. To me it seems like these cooking techniques are a matter of heat, food, and time. Maybe it is just me, but I get the feeling that the Scanpan people are not quite so patient with me anymore... The 7mm sounds pretty close to the 6.8mm I remembered from somewhere, so I'm glad I didn't miss it by that much. However, I don't know about this ceramic-titanium (CT) surface only being microns thick... well, maybe it is 100's of microns thick. At least to me, it calls into question the accuracy of their information. If it is really only that thick, then perhaps that is why there are some people who have said their pans had flaked off. To be fair, Scanpan replaced them without question and said it might have been part of a bad batch. In fact, I haven't heard any recent complaints. Oh, BTW, if you go out to the Scanpan web site, they have a couple movies under the classic and ergonomic links that show brief pictures of how the pans are made, including the CT surface. By comparison, I submitted essentially the same questions to the Swiss Diamond people and they have yet to reply. I'm going to wait a couple more days and then resumit the question, but via their web page form rather than an e-mail address. Scott
  5. Ed, You got that one right one the money. It is even worse on the Detailed Features pages. However, to their credit, they do address the PTFE thing as well as the issues with birds in this one: http://www.scanpan.com/classic/faq.html#18 I have had some time to think this through and came to a decision. First, the Swiss Diamond product fell down in the comparison. The handle wasn't up to snuff when compared to the NanoPro. Also, when I get down to it, the lack of thickness of both the pan and coating compared to the NanoPro also hurt. However, the warranty is better than the NanoPro... go figure. So it came down to the Scanpan and NanoPro. Well, the warranty (lifetime vs. 2/10 year) and the customer service (no hassle replacement vs. ???) come clearly down on the side of Scanpan as does the availability here in the States. I recently found that the thickness of the Scanpan is about 6.8mm on at least some of their pans (I'm waiting on confirmation), so the thickness still goes to the NanoPro, but not by as much. The surface seems to come down on the side of the NanoPro. Cost on the other hand, seems to clearly favor Scanpan. Unfortunately, I'm faced with an "oranges and apples" decision. Scanpan and NanoPro are not as directly comparable as Scanpan and Swiss Diamond are. So, for me, the breakdown is as follows: Scanpan: Lower cost Warranty Customer service Performance compared to NanoPro ? Availability Ceramic-Titanium coating nearly as tough as diamonds NanoPro: Thickness - Aluminum - Coating Diamond toughness Diamond thermal conductivity Higher cost No local (US) availability The bottom line is I would prefer to have a NanoPro, but cost, warranty, and local availability come down on the side of Scanpan. Hopefully, once I finish my degree, I'll be able to afford some NanoPro pans that will be available here in the US. The upside is that I'll be able to review a Scanpan alongside Swiss_Chef's Swiss NanoPro, so people can make a comparison. If someone were to get a Swiss Diamond pan and review it, we'd have a trifecta! Ed, thanks for your time and reviews. Too bad the good stuff isn't available over here in the US right now! Scott
  6. Ed, Yeah, I did forget to mention the durability benefit of having the diamonds in the matrix... Doh! {sound of hand slapping forehead} According to Scanpan, if I remember correctly, their pans are 6mm thick pressure cast aluminum. About the same as the Swiss Diamond. Unfortunately, I cannot find the web link for that specific information. I guess I will have to send off another email tonight. You can get more information here (I wish Swiss Diamond/NanoPro had as much info): http://www.scanpan.com/classic/faq.html One other area I am interested in the comparison is the warranty. Oh, I know that both Scanpan and Swiss Diamond have essentially the same lifetime warranties. However, one thing that I have consistently heard is that Scanpan provides effectively unflinching fulfilment of its warranty. If the product isn't working properly, send it back in and they will replace it with another. I have yet to hear of anyone who wasn't surprised at how painless the process was. On the other hand, I don't know of anyone who has had any experience with the Swiss Diamond product warranty. Then again, that may be a positive for Swiss Diamond, though it may just mean there aren't as many Swiss Diamond products out there. Anyway, as soon as I get some more information, I will post it. Scott
  7. Swiss_Chef, I got a response from Scanpan today... This email should unequivocally put to rest any questions anyone like myself may have had about whether or not Scanpan is using PTFE as its non-stick coating. Oh, you were right! I did notice a couple interesting, if implied, tidbits of information in Scanpan's reply. First, apparently the only way you can get a pan on the cooktop over 500F (260C) is if you put it on a burner dry for an extended period of time or by putting it in the oven at the highest heat. This is good news (at least to me). Now I wish I had an infrared thermometer. Second, Scanpan believes that PTFE only begins to "break down" at temperatures exceeding 660F. However, there are a few threads here on eGullet that have discussed PTFE beginning to break down at temperatures as low as about 330F. While there have not been any studies that have shown that the gasses/particulates that are released at temperatures below 500F actually affect adult humans, they do have an affect on pet birds. Since I have two girls (2 and 5), it makes me wonder if there is any effect for small children. The above two tidbits should also apply to the Swiss Diamond/NanoPro products. One thing I did find interesting in the page on teflon that you supplied, was that one of the properties of PTFE is as "an excellent insulator". This means that the heat that is being provided by the cooktop and through the pan, is not reaching the food to cook it... at least not efficiently. This explains (at least in part) why pro chefs have always told me that "stainless cooks better than non-stick" though they couldn't explain why. While stainless steel has a very poor heat transfer ability (in comparison to other metals), at least it isn't an insulator. Because of this, I would guess that the thermal conductivity of the diamonds in the PTFE/diamond matrix in the Swiss Diamond/NanoPro products do a lot to overcome the insulating property of PTFE. On the other hand, I do not know how much thermal conductivity is in the ceramic/titanium foundation of the Scanpan products. My bet is that the edge goes to Swiss Diamond/NanoPro. I guess it means that I have one more question to ask Scanpan though... Scott
  8. Great info! I have been lurking around here for weeks, but finally joined when I needed to ask for some information about non-stick pans. Based on the information I have gotten here so far, it was definitely worth it! :) The NanoPro brochure is interesting. However, I wonder if anyone else noticed that the charts for both the hardness and thermal conductivity were the same chart? Looks like the Swiss' copywriter missed that one. I have sent out a couple inquiries about the non-stick coatings on both the Scanpan and the Swiss Diamond pans. Both companies imply in their advertising that what they are using is better than teflon (ie. not teflon). So, I must admit I'm really curious about exactly what this non-stick stuff is... no offense intended Swiss_Chef, but I just like to hear things "from the horse's mouth" as it were. Thanks for all of your help! Scott
  9. Yeah, it is in that area. My point in my post was that I thought that the diamond surface was what was providing the non-stick, not teflon. If that were the case, then the plastic handle would probably be the reason for the 500F oven limit (I never use a fry pan in the oven at over 400F, so that isn't the issue, the temp on the cooktop is). However, I can now see that the Teflon is the limiting factor. It is unfortunate because it makes the pans less attractive for me. I just wish that Swiss Diamond would have been more forthcoming with the information about its surface. On the other hand, the Swiss world champ chefs have used these pans, so maybe I'm making an issue out of nothing. Also, Ed's burned honey and sugar tests were very impressive. I would have thought that test would have affected the pan surface, but it apparently did not. Impressive. Ahhh, now to decide between the Scanpan and Swiss Diamond. Decisions, decisions. Scott
  10. So these do use teflon? I was wondering what the "nano-composite" was. I use my fry pans for high temp searing (among other things) and tend to go through "cheapo" teflon pans about every 6-12 months. By the time I finally get rid of them, they are well worn out and require a bit of scrubbing to get clean. Other than the 500F (260C) temp restriction in the oven (which I have previously assumed to be due to the plastic handle), have they mentioned anything about a max temp on the pan? I would think that pre-heating the pan before searing would break down the non-stick. Are you still giving it the "rough treatment" (metal spatula, etc.)? Also, how are you cleaning it? Still with a paper towel? I ask because I cook and my wife cleans and has a preference for the dishwasher (I know, I know! :)). It is a shame that the NanoPro was not offered over hear. I wonder what the price premium would be compared to the Swiss Diamond. I have found the 12" fry pan for ~$65 here in the US (give or take $5). I'm not exactly sure how much of a premium I'd be willing to pay, but I don't know if I'd go much more than $20 at the outside (this probably has more to do with my financial situation than the product's value). Thanks for your help! Scott
  11. The Swiss Diamond pans have been of interest to me, but I'm wondering how comparable the NanoPro is to the Diamond line. Especially since the Diamond line is only one available here in the US. It seems that the Diamond line does not perform up to the level you are seeing with your NanoPro. When you were at the Swiss Diamond factory, other than thickness, were you able to tell any other differences? Specifically I'm wondering about any surface differences between the two. Does anyone else have any further input on the Swiss Diamond? I am interested in both the Scanpan and Swiss Diamond products (a 12" frypan), but I haven't found a clear concensus about either as to whether or not they live up to their billing, much less which is better. Any feedback/thoughts would be appreciated! Scott
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