A Patric
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So, an interesting note on my FAIL related to my above success.
For the test above, I used a cheap pack of "Au Jus" mix. It worked perfectly. When I actually spent all day making an incredible meat stock and tried it again, the mousse simply deflated.
I wasn't quite sure what the issue was. At first I suspected additives in the Au Jus mix that might have actually promoted the foam, but at the end of the day, it just didn't quite make sense to me as they were only small amounts of things like cornstarch. I thought about the other possibilities, and the significant amount of natural gelatin in my home-made stock gave me pause.
Could it be binding in ways that inhibit other hydrocolloids? A quick Google search confirmed:
Oh well. Now I just have to figure out how to distill the flavor of the meat broth while leaving the gelatin behind. Sounds easy enough.
Actually, I know that there are expensive devices that can do this. Would there be an easier/cheaper way? Freezer distillation of some sort?
All ideas welcome.
Best,
Alan
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I know it's not meat based - but there is a recipe from Dessert Fourplay for Tangerine Crispies -
125 grams sugar
6 grams methocellulose
1 gram xantham gum
1 gram citric acid
2 cups tangerine juice
Mix dry ingredients. Add to juice a tiny bit at a time in mixing mixer. Beat until expands about 8 times. Makes a foam similar I think to what you are looking for. This is then dehydrated to make the crispie part.
The proportions would likely work - I suspect the sugar isn't a necessary part, nor the citric acid.
Chef Rubber carries methocellulose for a not outrageous price.
Kerry,
As usual, you are a genius. This worked absolutely perfectly. I used 2 cups meat broth, 1 gram xanthan and 6 grams high-viscosity methyl cellulose. It created a perfect, hot, meat-broth mousse.
I'm going to try something with one of the more heat-stable carrageenans too, as suggested by Mike, just in the interest of science. ;-)
Best,
Alan
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Hi Mike,
I'll try it! I should be receiving iota and kappa carrageenan, as well as two different viscosities of methyl cellulose to play around with. I have guar gum already, so I should be able to figure something out. I'll keep the info about calcium in mind.
It might be a week or so, as I have a business trip coming up, but I'll definitely post my results!
Best,
Alan
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I found konjac powder and noodles locally. It is also very interesting stuff. It makes a thermo-irreversible gel, and holds together quite well. I can see why one of the recipes for a hot mousse in the Khymos book called for it. On the other hand, I can imagine it leading to an odd mouthfeel if too much is used. I'm looking for creamy, and preferably melting, like the texture of a chocolate mousse would be.
In other news, I experimented with agar again, this time adding some xanthan to see if I could get better results. I could. The bubbles were as fine as they had ever been, but the foam still was not stiff enough to stand on its own. I may be able to find something workable, but for now, I think I'll just wait for the other ingreients to arrive. They may end up being just what I need, especially the methyl cellulose, which sounds very promising, or perhaps the carrageenan.
At an rate, I'll keep everyone posted.
Best,
Alan
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So you don't want it to set as a foam which you can then reheat and serve warm? That's what I assumed from reading the first post.
If not, I'd just use gelatine, the warm foams I've made using it are very stable and can be very stiff yet soft, depending on the amount of gelatine and the N2O charge.
Sorry for any confusion. I'll try to be as clear as possible here:
I want to take pure, clarified meat juice and mix one, or a combination of, hydrocolloids into it to create a liquid/gel that when heated and put in my N20 canister will create a nice, stable, warm mousse.
What is key is that regardless of how the mixture is prepared (heating/cooling/mixing, etc) it either must be able to be turned into a mousse while it is still in a warm state, or I must be able to reheat the mixture and then turn it into a mousse in a warm state.
BTW, I did order some methyl cellulose (high viscosity and low viscosity types) and carrageenan yesterday. I am going to try and find konjac locally. I think that with all of these ingredients I'll be able to figure something out.
Best,
Alan
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Ok, so I tried the xanthan. It is very cool stuff btw. I couldn't believe how much 1 g thickened 300 g of water. Still, it wasn't thick enough, so I added another gram. It foamed, but not quite as much as I wanted. I added 1 T of vegetable oil, and the bubbles were even finer, but it still wasn't perfect. I'll try 3 g tomorrow.
In the process of doing this, though, I started to wonder if my wording is causing confusion. This definitely created a foam, and one that seems to be relatively stable. But the foam was not the type that I am looking for. I want something the texture of whipped cream, whites beaten stiff, or chocolate mousse.
Perhaps I should say that I am looking for a way to make a water-based, stable mousse, that I can create with my N2O canister. I want something that can stand on its own and yet still have a soft texture. I don't want to have to contain the foam in a small bowl to keep it from spreading.
I think for such a foam, the bubbles must be much smaller than what I'm getting right now. I'll test with a larger amount of xanhan, but if my further explanation helps any, I'm up for additional suggestions.
Best,
Alan
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I found something from the Khymos site:
It is a hot transparent savory mousse flavored only with meath juice and foamed with a n2o canister. It uses xanthan, konjac, and carrageenan. A small amount of maltitol is also added. I've noticed that some of the hydrocolloids function better with small amounts of sugar, glycerol, oil, or fine particulate. I'm wondering if agar is one of those, as I have tried everything from small amounts to very large amounts with pure water, using the method above, and having no luck at all.
I did pick up xanthan and guar gums today, and I'll try them both. First I'll try a proportion of 300g water to 1 g xanthan as this seems about right given the recipes in the Khymos book.
My goal is to find something that works with pure water and move on from there to fat-free flavored, though not sweetened, liquids, such as a clarified meat broth or vegetable juice.
If I want to buy konjac, carrageenan, or methyl cellulose does anyone know of a good, reasonably priced, online source?
Best,
Alan
ETA: methyl cellulose
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Alan,
At least around where I live - Xanthan gum is available at bulk food stores and health food places in bulk - cheap as borscht!
Hi Kerry,
Thank you for the tip. I'll try to swing by the local health food store today. I didn't realize that it was readily available.
I'll keep you posted.
Best,
Alan
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I would try using Agar-Agar. Typically Agar is used for "Warm Gelatins"
First create a version your sauce using Agar
(dissolve it in while boiling)(.5% to 3% range of your sauce weight-as per Khymos, the higher % the firmer the gel)
Let it cool and set
Shear in a blender to create a Fluid Gel
Load that gel into isi and keep warm but below the melting temp of Agar (85C/185F)
Hi MSK,
I have tried this exact method using many different proportions of agar to water. Even when the gel is extremely firm, it doesn't seem to be working for me. It will certainly foam, but it won't hold for more than a couple of seconds.
Best,
Alan
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Have you tried thickening the liquid with Xanthan to help it hold while it sets?
I haven't tried Xanthan, as I don't have any. It looked the most promising out of the possibilities beyond agar, so I was kind of hoping to hear from someone that it would definitely work before purchasing some. In the Khymos guide, I don't think that any of the Xanthan recipes use an N2O canister.
Have you tried this, or has anyone else?
Best,
Alan
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Have you taken a cruise through the Khymos collection.
Hi Kerry,
Indeed I have. This is what gave me the idea for using the agar.
I can't claim that I've read every word of it, but I haven't found anything that sounds exactly what I'm trying to do.
Best,
Alan
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I'm looking for something very specific. I'd like to do a water-based warm foam with a N2O canister that has no added fat/cream/milk, etc. I want the foam to set up and be relatively stable.
My idea is to make a beef broth foam or something similar that can be injected into something like a popover.
I have tried all kinds of experimentation with agar using plain water, and I can get it to foam, but it doesn't hold at all, no matter how strong I make the solution.
Any ideas?
Thank you!
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Thanks for the tip about Schnuck's Emily!. I'll try it.
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New Places:
Broadway Brewery
44 Stone Public House
I don't have a comment on either place yet. Broadway Brewery has been open for a while and has had mixed reviews. 44 Stone Public House just opened and has had good reviews so far from what I've heard.
An unrelated question:
Do any of you know where I can buy fresh/cake yeast in Columbia?
Best,
Alan
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Thanks everyone! All helpful stuff.
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There has got to be someone on eGullet who knows something--anything--about this. Anyone?
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Hello,
I've read, as have many of you, about Thomas Keller's emphasis on the usage of the tamis for taking many sauces and purees, among other preparations, to the next level in terms of texture.
I've been trying to figure out exactly what Keller is using--an 18" tamis it seems, but I can find no more information than that--as there are many sizes of tamis, with various screen mesh sizes, and that seem built for various purposes (i.e. for sifting flour, sugar, or other powders, or alternatively, for the tougher job of having pureed products forced through them).
Can anyone, especially anyone who works with these tools in a restaurant on a regular basis, give me an idea of what I should be looking for, and hopefully, a brand and/or website that has tried and true versions of this tool?
I've come across the Moulinex brand--I believe--which can be found at JB Prince:
http://www.jbprince.com/utensils/french-st-st-sieve-12-inch.asp
It comes with a 20 mesh screen, though I think additional finer screens may be purchased, and is 12" in diameter. I do have some bowls and a stock pot that are larger in diameter than 12", so I was hoping to find something in the 14"+ range. I'm having no luck.
I have found tamis that seem to be much more cheaply built, but apparently they are best used only for sifting flour, etc. One example:
That said, I obviously don't have any experience using any of them, so I'm just going on what I've been reading while scouring the web. Can anyone confirm any of this based upon experience?
Best,
Alan
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I usually am not attracted to kitchen gadgets, but this one seems so cool to me for some reason. I'll look forward to hearing about your experiences with it Andie.
Alan
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In the future, there isn't any benefit to defrosting in 100F water before setting it to 120F. I would recommend trying it at 131F or 132F the whole time and seeing if the result is any different.
I wasn't attempting to defrost at 100 F, though certainly that did happen. The thought was that there are other proteolytic enzymes that are denatured at temperatures just above 100 F, and I wondered what holding at 100 F would do. As mentioned, it is hard to know how much time the meat actually spent at 100 F, or 120 F for that matter, since the meat started semi-frozen, but that was the thought at least.
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Hi Pedro,
Thank you. These are the paragraphs that I was looking at for guidance in DB's document. As far as I can tell, my handling of the roast is considered safe according to these guidelines.
Best,
Alan
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I'm not sure why you felt you needed to do three-stage cooking.
Hi Nick,
I don't think that I'd say that I felt I "needed" to do it, but if you'd like to know why I "wanted" to do it, then take a look at what I wrote a couple of posts up.
Also, I'm certainly no micro-biologist, but shouldn't pasteurizing after 3 hours in the temperature danger zone, which at any rate is within the window considered "safe" by the FDA (i.e. under 4 hours), solve any potential food safety issue?
Alan
ETA: I'm really asking this question here.
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Well, having had no responses and having decided that I really wanted to have a roast beef sandwich for breakfast today, I went ahead as planned. I did take a slight deviation from what I outlined above as my roast turned out to still be partially frozen. I did the following:
I cut the roast into three pieces around 3" thick, sprinkled with salt and pepper, sealed them, and put them in a 100 F water bath for 1 hour. I then increased the temperature to 120 F and let them cook for 2 hours. Finally, I raised the temperature to 131 F and cooked for 12 hours, rather than get up and pull one half way through the night at 6 hours as I had initially planned. I seared and sliced. The beef was beautifully pink and juicy, and hadn't lost very much liquid at all. It was quite tender and held together into slices well, as roast beef tends to do, yet it was much easier to eat than many roast beef sandwiches, as the remaining collagen didn't resist too much when biting through each slice. I guess the best way to put it is that the roast beef didn't risk being pulled out of the sandwich after each bite as sometimes happens even with thinner slices of some roast beef. It seemed to be the best of both worlds, and importantly, it was delicious.
In fact, it was so good that I pulled the last two pieces rather than let them cook for another 12 hours or beyond. Why mess with virtual perfection?
That said, I'm not sure exactly how this translates into a cooking regime for a roast starting closer to refrigeration temperature, as I know it took some time for the roast pieces to finish totally defrosting, and so how long any given part of each piece of beef was at 100 or 120 is only a guess at best.
Anyway, for those of you who enjoy juicy roast beef, this might be worth a try. I'm still interested in what the "experts" have to say about food safety in this case, but reading back over a couple of closely related posts from NathanM, it seems that having the meat under 130 F for fewer than 4 hours and then raising up to 131 F for plenty of time to pasteurize should be safe protocol.
Other thoughts welcome.
Best,
Alan
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So McGee notes that certain enzymes in beef that increase tenderness--specifically the proteolytic cathepsins that diminish contraction of muscle fibers and cause more collagen to dissolve into gelatin creating a "more tender and succulent" meat-- are very active around about 120 F, yet all but mostly denatured by 131 F.
I'm looking for ideas on how to make these enzymes work for me with roast beef while cooking it sous vide. I have a well-marbled top sirloin roast and I want to make very juicy, just medium rare, tender, piece of meat. I'm actually going to slice it into three pieces that are about 2.5" thick and this will allow me to experiment a little by pulling them at different times. So, here is my thought:
Start the water bath at 120 F. Allow the beef to cook for 2 hours. Raise temperature to 131 F and allow the three beef sections to cook for additional periods of time (6 hours, 12 hours, 24 hours respectively).
It seems to me that this protocol would be safe enough to prevent food-borne illness. Can anyone better versed in such things as they pertain to sous vide confirm, given the above times and temperatures, that the food would be safe? If food safety is achieved, would it be possible to extend the time at 120 F to longer than 2 hours safely? If so, what would the maximum time limit be that we could say is safe? Would it be 4 hours? Judging by Douglas Baldwin's guide, it looks to me like the meat must reach 130 F within 6 hours to avoid potential Clostridium perfringens issues. I suppose, then, that if I am reading this correctly, that 4 hours at 120 F could be safe. Any thoughts?
Furthermore, has anyone tried this, and can it be confirmed that the time at 120 F really makes a very noticeable difference for tenderness, especially at the times I'm talking (i.e. 1-4 hours)?
Any other relevant thoughts welcome too.
Very best,
Alan
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Most brewing supply places also sell rubber grommets or plugs that will serve to create an air-tight seal between the lid and air lock. No need for messy wax or sealants.
Warm foams
in Cooking
Posted
Thanks everyone. I'll give the freezer method a try first and move on from there if need be. I'll just use the byproduct--all the slightly meaty gelatin--to help give body to some other meat-based sauces down the road.
Best,
Alan