Morfudd

Paul you are right, it would be a frozen brick of ice if all the water were frozen, but what I mean is that hardening is done to freeze the remaining 40% of FREEZABLE water into small ice crystals (as you know, some of the water never freezes and remains within a very concentrated sugar solution which is why ice cream can be scooped at sub zero temperatures) Re the MSNF's - yes you are right, they must exist in dairy fat, as it is impossible not to have them present, but as I understand it, they certainly do not exist in the same quantities as they do in milk. One of the defects in ice cream can sometimes be graininess due to too much lactose from MSNF's. which I think is from an incorrect balance of milk/cream/emulsifiers

Just picked up on Tri2cook's post of June 8th re whether it makes a difference if you use equal portions of full fat cream at x % fat and milk at x % fat or divide the total fat content of the two and use a cream of that % (sorry clumsy wording) Actually it does make a difference to the end product. Milk contains MSNF's - milk solids not fat, which include caseins and other milk proteins, lactose etc. Caseins contribute some emulsifying properties to the mix, giving it body and 'chew resistance' and helping the ice cream hold the air whipped into it. Dairy cream does not have MSNF's, so you would be altering the texture of the ice cream if you substituted a lower fat cream for the heavy cream/ milk mix. I was hoping someone could answer a question for me. Ice cream need to be 'hardened' once it has been churned, as 40% of the freezable water in it has not yet frozen. It is hardened as quickly as possible in a freezer with as low a temperature as possible in order for the remaining water to freeze into small, not large ice crystals. Does anyone know if the same principe holds true for sorbets? Theoretically, I would have thought it would be the same, that not all of the water was frozen after churning. Whilst most people dont bother with the hardening step in ice creams (and nor do I much of the time), I would still like to know if sorbets should, correctly, be hardened in the same way?

Hi I just want to add a (perhaps) final note on this. I contacted Prof Goff again on this point and he has revised his thoughts on the subject. He thinks that the foam structure created probably will be lost during the cooking of the custard and will have no effect on the final product.

When I use the word foam, that is because ice cream IS a foam (in technical terms) - so is gelato, because it is a 'gas dispersed in a liquid', regardless of how much air you whip in to it. Ice cream is both a foam and an emulsion at the same time. You need to create a stable foam structure which is essentially a fat membrane into which you trap air. Foam doesn't actually mean that it is like a Mr.whippy - all air and high overrun. I think what Prof Goff is saying is that this whipping the eggs until pale yellow and doubled in volume helps create a stable foam structure - this is really one of the building blocks in a series of building blocks to creating the structure in an ice cream, which is all about getting the right combination of a destabilised fat membrane, ice crystals, concentrated aqueous solution and air. The custard doesn't become a 'foam' until it is churned and whipping eggs and sugar together is not about incorporating air as that will be dispersed anyway; I think it is to do with creating stability in a molecular sense.

Yes Professor Goff does talk about the stabilization in an ice cream context. He says that whipping the eggs and sugar together helps stabilize the foam and creates a better foam structure once it is tempered with the milk and cream and returned to the saucepan for cooking. Whether actual experiments have been carried out to compare the structure of an ice cream with eggs whipped alone versus eggs whipped with sugar I dont know.

I have just been e mailing a dairy scientist in Canada and he says that the reason for whipping the sugar and eggs together is that the sugar does actually help to stabilize the foam. So Paul you were right. Lebovitz does mention corn starch in his recipes but does not mention it in his ingredients list, although he does mention corn syrup.

Paul it would be interesting to do a comparison as you suggested, though so far what I have discovered is that in Northern Italy they do have higher fat content in their recipes by using cream and of course the egg yolk content goes up because these are needed to emulsify the fat and provide the protein casing displaced during the fat destabilisation process of churning. In the south, the fat content is lower but sometimes egg yolks are still used in quite high quantities to make a rich creme anglaise, and also I suppose the egg yolks provide an increase in fat that isnt provided by the cream, but these are still more like what people regard as gelatos, as they are denser than the French style ice creams. I have looked at loads of Italian recipe books and although it varies regionally, there appears to be a lot of just personal preference as well, regardless of the provenance of the writer. The cornstarch you mention (I presume you mean corn syrup - in Britain we call it glucose syrup) does have stabilizing effects because it is highly viscous and ties up water in the mix, preventing some of the unfrozen water that always remains in an ice cream from migrating onto the existing crystals and creating a course texture. It also has a different sweetening capacity to sucrose, and gives more length to the sensation of sweetness than sucrose. I always include glucose syrup in both my ice cream recipes as well as my sorbets for this reason. Egg yolks have a different purpose as they have emulsifying properties and are needed as a sort of liquid casing to prevent the destabilised fat from coagulating. If a recipe calls for little cream but lots of egg yolks, I presume it is because they want to achieve the richness provided by the egg yolks; the yolks are not needed to stabilise the fat as milk is obviously much lower in fat than cream. Am I making any sense, or rambling on? Maybe you can answer another question for me. You have explained to me why the egg/sugar mix is thoroughly whisked in order to dissolve the sugar. But why do we bother with mixing the eggs with the sugar in the first place if the sugar is going to be dissolved in the heated milk/cream mix in the first place? Why not just stick the sugar in with the milk and cream mix and whip the eggs up separately?

Actually thanks chefpeon too for your comments on shrinkage. do you know the answer to my last question?

One of the main differences between gelato and ice cream is the amount of butterfat in it, and the temperature at which it is served. Gelato recipes often have little or no cream in them at all (in Italy this varies regionally) and are essentially a creme Anglaise. Because gelato has a lower fat content, it wont have as extensive a fat membrane structure, and so less air will be 'trapped' in the custard as it is being churned. It will therefore be denser than an ice cream with a higher fat content, and less rich. Gelatos often seem more flavour intense than ice creams. Again this is because they have a lower fat content and diffuse the perception of flavour quicker to the taste receptors than a creamier ice cream where the cream coats the tongue with melting fat globules, slowing down the transfer and perception of flavour to the taste receptors. Paul thank you for your comments re the whipping and also on the shrinkage. But if an ice cream is put in a sealed container, is that sufficient to prevent loss of moisture, or does it need both the sealed container and the waxed or greasproof paper ? Presumably the water is not migrating onto the existing ice crystals, but being lost in the atmosphere?

Paul thank you - I am writing a book on ice creams and there are a number of gaps in my research! So when you say 'pale yellow and doubled in volume' that means in effect that that is the way it will look like when the sugar is fully dissolved in the eggs and it is the only real way of knowing that this process has happened? On another note, I understood that when you covered the top of an ice cream or sorbet with waxed or greaseproof paper, that it was to prevent the ice cream from shrinkage. If that is true, do you know why the ice cream/sorbet would be likely to shrink in the first place? Morfudd

sorry, meant 'whip my eggs and sugar until pale yellow etc.

When I am making an ice cream, i always 'whip my ice cream until pale yellow and doubled in volume' Can anyone tell me why I actually have to do this, apart from making sure that the eggs and sugar are thoroughly mixed together? (and apologies in advance if it is obvious and I am a bit thick) Does it actually mean anything in a structural/chemistry way that the mix should be 'pale and doubled in volume'?

Thank you. I would not personally be worried by eating raw egg whites, but I am writing a recipe book on ice creams and sorbets and one of the recipes I want to include is nougat ice cream but made with egg whites, cream and nuts whipped up and then frozen. It is delicious and an adaptation of one of Marco Pierre white's recipes from 'White Heat' Most nougat ice cream recipes cook the nougat and then incorporate it into the ice cream, or make a Pate a bombe first. (Gordon Ramsay also includes uncooked egg whites in his nougat parfait but not as many as Marco!) So I think I will probably use my adapted recipe with a clear sentence saying 'contains raw egg whites' I dont want to use egg yolks in this particular recipe and dont want to cook my meringue first.

Does anyone know if it is 'safer' to eat an egg white if it is uncooked but has been incorporated into an ice cream and frozen? Does the freezing process kill the bacteria or just render them immobile, as it were, and therefore harmless?

Yes and both times I dined at el Bulli I ate things I didn't like - but the WOW factor on each occasion far outweighed anything else. Of course there is some risk involved that some dishes may underwhelm, but generally we dine in restaurants to be impressed, especially at this sort of price range. I can name many restaurants (primarily in London) where I have had brilliant meals that reflect a chef's pure talent. Sadly, I saw little evidence of this at my evening at PG...in some dishes - very good, but not outstanding or memorable

Pierre I mind less about liking or disliking somebody's style than thinking this was not at a three star level of excellence - too many misses in my opinion, not enough of a WOW factor. Of course restaurants have their off nights, but at this level there should be no off nights, no potential for mediocrity. Anyway, thank you for your feedback - i am sure I shall have better luck next time!

Quelle domage! I am afraid I had a thoroughly disappointing meal at Pierre Gagniare on Sunday evening and can barely believe it! I had high expectations, and whilst some of the dishes were perfectly executed, there were quite a few dishes that simply tasted not right, as if some junior chef had been in charge of mise en place that day and had allowed dishes to be prepared without any care at all... Here are some I can remember - the amuse bouche - a ceviche of bream on a fricasse of mushrooms - lovely; a foam of corn - very bitter and rather nasty; mussels with roe - very good; choucroute with pototo foam - gloupy and texturally nasty. My 'Orientale' starter included a partridge wrapped in an almond pastry on a bed of red peppers - the pastry was soggy and over sweet and more bitterness to be found in the red peppers. My starter also included a green pepper consomme with endive ice cream - lovely. My dining companion had a starter of partridge with, I think Chevignol and rhubarb. i do not think there was anything wrong with the execution, but I am afraid neither of us understood why anyone would think the concept would work. My dining companion had Dover sole for a main course which, rather surprisingly, was brought to her to view, already cooked, whilst we were still eating our starters. There may have been a reason for this which evaded us, but unsurprisingly, the fish tasted overcooked once it was brought again to the table to be eaten. I had an excellent Canard, cooked perfectly, and with some lovely accompaniments, including a beetroot ice cream - but by then my faith, and appetite had all but dissappeared. We did not even bother with cheese and dessert (usually my favourite part) The wine list was excellent and not too overpriced for a three star restaurant so we drank well and service was correct if somewhat indifferent and so I am left thinking.... Have i missed something here ? Is there something I simply don't understand? I suppose I use as a benchmark my experience of El Bulli, Per Se and The Fat Duck, all of which have pushed my boundaries in terms of combinations of flavours and textures. In all of these, there was first of all an infectious enthusiasm by the staff for the food they were serving and a desire to explain them - something that simply did not happen at PG (including no desire to know why much of the food had not been eaten) Secondly, whilst I do not expect to like everything I eat and might disagree with the Chef as to whether I think dishes work or not, nonetheless I do expect to say to myself " the flavours and textures are fabulous, even if I do not agree that they work together" I also expect, at this level of dining to be saying to myself "The Chef has really captured the essence of a flavour - this is hitting me between the eyeballs" I have had this experience at the restaurants I mentioned, but at Gagniare's, all I felt, honesty, was that a Chef had not really thought through the dishes properly, or why they should be served together. It all felt incredibly amateruish! Comments please, because i really feel as if I wasted my money..

Thank you all for your advise which I have duely followed and have reservation on sunday evening...I am very very excited..I had such an amazing meal at El Bulli a few years ago, and whilst I know the styles are different, I still regard the El Bulli meal as the most exciting evening in a restaurant that I have ever had and certainly the best value for money - it has not been beaten by anywhere I have eaten in London and environs or New York, so thank you all...... will let you know how I get on!

thank you i couldn't remember how many stars PG had in Paris...it is difficult to choose though with only two nights and such short notice, as I want to go to so many places!

Thank you - I ate at the upstairs restaurant in Sketch, London some years ago - it was unlikely he was actually cooking but it was under his supervision I think - the meal was good but not breathtaking.....will i do better in Paris if I eat at his restaurant?

Hi last minute decision to go to Paris this coming weekend - any recommendations on who may be doing the El Bulli, WD50, Fat Duck approach to cooking ? Sadly I am only there for the weekend, and will probably be too late to book...

Thank you so much! It was great fun doing the Exmouth market festival and the ice creams and sorbets sold really well (it was a hot day, something wrong if they didn't!) Pineapple and chilli didn't sell at all until I realized i'd forgotten to put it on the menu!! Other great sellars were - Hokey pokey ice cream (vanilla with honeycomb) Affogato al cafe, vanilla with PX sherry and fresh mint with chocolate brownie. I have another idea which I would like to ask e-gulleteers their opinion of - do they think that it would be feasable to do a similar thing with a "Hot dog and burger van"? I am not sure of the logistics of making burgers and hot dogs on a stove in the van, and what the implications are re health and safety, but I really like the idea of being a mobile burger bar but also serving really great home made hot dogs. Any suggestions?

Would still love the olive oil gelato recipe if anybody has it....

Cannot get hold of the cook book - could some lovely person give me the olive oil gelato recipe please???xxxx

Dined there on Tuesday evening - you have to give a restaurant a grace period in the first week and that was reflected in the 50% off food prices. The restaurant was full, the service was a bit rushed but, hey, its their second day! The food was superb, and did not reflect the fact that it was the second day of opening. Superb to see every wine offered by both bottle and glass. Great restaurant which deserves success.