706 replies to this topic

[glennbech]

Nice , did you let the loaves in the fridge after and bake them right away?
Let us know , and post some pics biggrin.gif .

Well... I can only report disaster! But at least, I know where I went wrong and are making steps to correct them. I guess that's the most important thing ?

I decided on not to bake right from the fridge. So I rised the loaf for about 3 hours, and got incredible size. It was on it's way out of my proofing basket. Then disaster struck Again ....

Have a look at this... What a complete disaster. over 24 hours after i started this bread, it's totally ruined by a bad couche! Im making sure that that will never happen again!



A small detail.... Does these bubbles mean the dough is over-proved, or just well proved? I got real good rise after I took it out of the fridge.



Okay... So this is what Im doing with the stickyness.... I took out a fresh cloth. Put it on my kitchentop and sprinkled with a Lot of rye flour. I then started to press and work the flour into the cloth by applying preasure. I'm trying this design for an "anti-stick couche" as I type, and will report back with
a (I hope) successfull atempt.



The result was, of course a totally defalted dough. I should probably have put it back in a basket for a second proof. But I decided to go with it and test it's oven spring.

The results were not good, as you can see. A Very dense wet crumb (Due to under-baking), and large holes. Not a good combo .-) I'll bake my next batch tonight, with an improved couche and report back the results. Proof of failure ;

Edited by glennbech, 04 May 2006 - 02:06 PM.

[donyeokl]

Hi Glenbech,

I decided on not to bake right from the fridge. So I rised the loaf for about 3 hours, and got incredible size. It was on it's way out of my proofing basket. Then disaster struck Again .... angry.gif

You might have over-proof the dough...

Try doing the process again, you should be fine this time...

Cheers...

Don

Edited by donyeokl, 05 May 2006 - 08:50 AM.

[glennbech]

Over-proofed or not... If you look at the picture where My cloth is totally stuck to the dough.... Might explain a few things .-)

Anyhow... I always have a backup plan, and baked the exact same recipe starting this morning... So I'm making a "one day" variant with 3 hours ferment, shaping, 2 hour proof, slit, bake and pray for spring .-)

It looks real good, smells real g so far... I'll post pictures later tonight (It's 00:51 here).

[glennbech]

Well.. I'm very happy with today's results. One good loaf, and one real bad. The most important thing is that I now (might) have a "baseline" process that I can build on and optimize, that woorks for my conditions. (And that produces decent bread *grin*)

Leasons learned today;

#1 ) I will never again leave room for any doubt that the dough may stick to the couche. I'll smear, rub and sprinkle so much rice or rye flour on that cloth, that nothing will ever stick. I'm also keeping this cloth in a sealed box for later use.

Using plenty of flour in the proofing basket also has another benefit. The surface of the bread gets drier, and is easier to slice. Even Gilette Razor blades have problems with a wet dough.

#2 ) I now learn how much rise that is theoreticaly possible to get from my "standard recipe", and can see from my proofing box when it's time to move it into the oven.

Standard Recipe follows, as entered into my home made Online Baker's percentage calculator, comments on this is more than welcome! .-)



#3) "one day sourdough" is possible .-)

#4) The Kenwood Kitchen machine is suspended from it's duty when baking. A few folds and some stretches and lot's of rest is all that the dough needs.

Here you can see the two loaves for today. Both are made using the exact same recipe. The smallest and most compact (the bad), stuck to my couche and colapsed.
The other Im quite happy with. It's still hot so I can't' slice it yet .-)

Edited by glennbech, 04 May 2006 - 04:42 PM.

[Desiderio]

Great post , and finally some pics
Well the difference between them its enormous, incredible.
i still have problems with the dough getting stuck to my cloth I think I need to get some rice flour but I didnt see it around at the store , maybe specialized ones?
And I cant get my routin squared away because everytime I bake its in the middle of the night then I go sleep for a while then up and sometimes I leave the dought there longer than what it should without folding it .So when I go back to the final step the dough either stuck to the cloth or I have hard time do the transfer form the sheet to the stone in the oven , last time they stcuk to the baking sheet where I put them for the final proof, I dont know how to do with the bannetons (sp )I mean after you shape them then put them in the bannetons or else and the move them to the oven , how you do that ?
Hehe well I guess need more time to figure that out.
thank you again for the great post ))

[CanadianBakin']

I have a question too!

I'm on day 2 of my first sour dough bread. I'm using a recipe from the Chef who taught a pastry & baking class I took in March.
Day 1 - I kneaded together starter, bread flour, water and salt. Let sit at room temp 24 hours.
Day 2 - I made up the bread dough and let sit at room temp 6 hours, then shaped and now have in the fridge fermenting.
Day 3 - I'm supposed to let sit at room temp until double and then bake. I know it depends on a lot of factors but approximately how long will this take? I have 2  1-1/2 lb loaves. If I take them out at 1pm should that be enough time to have them ready for dinner at 5:30? I'm going to be out most of the morning so my other option is to take them out at 9am and bake them off when they look ready, hoping that from 9 - 1pm when I get home won't be too long.
Also, what temp and approximately how long? My instructions just say to BAKE.
I don't know if it makes a difference but I made them with multi-grain bread flour.

Just wanted to report back. I don't have a digital camera so I don't have pictures to show.
I took the loaves out of the fridge at about 8:30 am. I put them on a perforated baking sheet and covered the underneath of the pan with foil so the bottom of the loaves wouldn't dry out and loosely covered the tops with saran. The pan was very cold from the loaves so to give it a kick start I put them in the oven with a pan of boiling water on the bottom rack. They were in the oven for maybe 20 minutes. Then I set them in direct sunlight and went out. Much to my delight, when I arrived home around 12:30pm they had doubled! I was hoping, but had my doubts since the 6 hours at room temp the previous day had provided very little rise. I didn't have baking instructions so I baked them at 450F for about 25 minutes. As I removed them I realized I had forgotten to slash them so the look wasn't as good. As someone mentioned upthread, the one that had a tighter skin kept it's shape best. Unfortunately it also had a tunnel along the top. Any ideas why this happened? Aside from that, the flavour and texture were excellent! I will have to keep trying to perfect this skill but am very happy with my first try.

[glennbech]

Great post , and finally some pics 
i still have problems with the dough getting stuck to my cloth I think I need to get some rice flour but I didnt see it around at the store , maybe specialized ones?
thank you again for the great post ))

Thanks! yes, the difference is enourmous. The only thing that is done different between the loaves is that the good one, didn't stick to my cloth!

You should be able to get non-stick with rye flour, maybe you should try my aproach? It's a bit messy but it worked for me. I use a *very* large amount of rye flor and put it on my cloth in a pile in the middle. I then start rubbing it in all over. You can see a picture of it upthread somewhere .-)

My final steps are always like this.

1. After "bulk" fermenting, I take the dough out it's bowl and put it on an oiled surface. I have then prepared my "couche" in advance. My couche is simply a baking bowl, with the floured cloth put on the inside.

2. I try to shape the dough into a ball, knocking it down as little as possible in the process. It always defaltes a great deal during this step, but I guess that's okay.

3. I slip the dough into my couche, put a lid on it, and put it somewhere warm for about 3 hours.

4. I take out my baking peel Home made. It's very ugly, but I build it with my hands ) and put a sheet of baking paper on top of my peel.

5. I simply flip my "couche" on top of baking sheet, and remove the cloth (critical step! *grin* lot's of accidents have happened here).

6. Slice with Gilette razors, and slide onto the baking stone using the peel. It's worth noticing that I slide entire thing, including the baking parchment onto the stone! (In case you tried to move the loaf only.... That is probably very difficult!) The parchment can easily take the heat.

7. Sometimes I put a oven save bowl of water in with the loaf. Soetimes I throw cold water at the bottom of the oven... I'm not sure yet what works best. I heard someone are using Ice cubes... Must try that .-)

8. I'll maybe make a "1 day sourdough" tutorial/pictorial when i get my routine in order, and all my facts straight (I've ordered a few good books now, So Im going to get into all the dirty chemistry and biology details here...) :-)

Good luck on the baking!

Edited by glennbech, 04 May 2006 - 11:34 PM.

[glennbech]

Just wanted to report back. I don't have a digital camera so I don't have pictures to show.
I took the loaves out of the fridge at about 8:30 am. I put them on a perforated baking sheet and covered the underneath of the pan with foil so the bottom of the loaves wouldn't dry out and loosely covered the tops with saran. The pan was very cold from the loaves so to give it a kick start I put them in the oven with a pan of boiling water on the bottom rack. They were in the oven for maybe 20 minutes. Then I set them in direct sunlight and went out. Much to my delight, when I arrived home around 12:30pm they had doubled! I was hoping, but had my doubts since the 6 hours at room temp the previous day had provided very little rise. I didn't have baking instructions so I baked them at 450F for about 25 minutes. As I removed them I realized I had forgotten to slash them so the look wasn't as good. As someone mentioned upthread, the one that had a tighter skin kept it's shape best. Unfortunately it also had a tunnel along the top. Any ideas why this happened? Aside from that, the flavour and texture were excellent! I will have to keep trying to perfect this skill but am very happy with my first try.

Im happy to hear that things worked out!

So you removed the dough your baking pan, heated them up a bit, and put the dough back into the pans ?

From my limited experience, It is seems it is possible to get very good rise during proofing even if you take a cold baking pan straight out of the fridge, and just leave it in room temperature for a couple of hours.

Not sure why you got the "tunnel", but i think I know what you mean. I've gotten similar results when using a "dry" dough (60-65%), and folding the dough just before baking. Does this make sense? What happens to the inside of the loaf during baking is still a great mystery to me .-)

[Paul Stanley]

Glennbech: One comment you made set a bell ringing with me--that you are using a bowl as a couche. I have found that this tends to be a problem, because it makes the surface of the dough wet, with the result that it tends to stick to the cloth. I have had much better success using a basket: the dough does not stick so easily, and the surface remains drier. On one occasion, I made two loaves from identical dough, one in a bowl and one in a basket. The one in the basket was perfect. The one in the bowl had a clammy surface and stuck to the cloth, and was very hard to slash, with the inevitable results your pictures demonstrate. This makes sense--the basket can "breathe" in a way the bowl cannot. In a bowl there's nowhere for the moisture at the surface to go, so it remains on the surface or (worse) mixes with the flour on the couche to form a sticky paste.

I have never had a sticking problem with the basket, even though I use only ordinary flour.

I think it is worth getting hold of some baskets. I don't use "proper" bannetons: mine are a couple of very cheap (£1.50) bread baskets I got from a household goods store, and chopped off their handles!

Edited to add: And your second successful loaf of yesterday is absolutely wonderful looking!

Edited by Paul Stanley, 05 May 2006 - 01:04 AM.

[glennbech]

I'm getting myself some baskets... Any pointers to online shops? I've been trying to find supplies in Norway without any luck. I can't even find strong flour anywhere.

You've got a real important point here. As you can see the surface of my loaves are extremely dusted with flour. Since I use rye, it actually gives an "off" taste to the crust. I actually "dusted" the loaf after baking .-)

Taste wise, this bread was excellent. Very spongy and even crumb, I'll post pictures later. The only negative thing taste wise, was the thick layer of rye flour on the crust.

[Paul Stanley]

I'm afraid I've no pointers to online sources of baskets: I don't know if Dan Lepard's site might help for proper bannetons, though they are quite expensive I believe. But, as I say, I improvised with a cheap basket originally intended for serving bread, which I line with a cloth. I've also heard a recommendation to try flower shops, because little baskets are sometimes used to present floral displays in.

[Desiderio]

Great great guys hehe all this talking it finally gives me some light here , even if I read books and the forum, it always seems that its a mistery how to get a good breat tecniques etc.
Thank you Glenn , that home made peel is awesomeeeee!!!Hehe I will probably try your routin .
And thank you Paul , about the baskets I had use the bowl as well with the cloth and flour and yes its sticks! I will use a basket I actually have one here that is the right size ,will try with Jackal dose for the white bread see how it works , his bread always seems great looking , I will give it a try .
Thank you guys weee this thread is very cool ))

Edited by Desiderio, 05 May 2006 - 02:17 AM.

[Desiderio]

Ok 4th attempt , this time with Jackal formula ( my starter if from Hamelman book , its a rye one).
Did the preferment , that went up and active pretty fast, then mixing ,then on the oiled surface left it there covered,after 40 mins folding , covered again for about the same time then another folding, got my basket with floured cloth put the dough in it ( was still kinda sticky at this point ) covered with oiled seran covered and put it in the fridge overnight.
Next day at 460 ( I have gas oven ) stone in the oven to get hot , put some steam on the bottom peel the bread from a cutting board with corn meal, right into the stone, no problem peeling no sticking since was right out of the fridge.
Kept steaming ,when the crust got color moved the steam out and left the oven little bit open with a spoon to finish .
Umm I dont know it had enourmous oven spring ( probably the highest I got since now ), Still no holes in the crumb , and I am little disappointed .Will see the taste , smell was very good .
Ok I have tested it and its great its awesome, the crust its cruncky and nice and think ( like I wanted) the bread its light and the amount of holes inside its pretty good and really really remainds me of the italian rustic pagnotta I miss so much!!

Wee I am very pleased this time , Thank you guys for all the tips and suggestion ( doesnt end here though still keep experimenting )
Thank you Jackal for you great formula and help

Edited by Desiderio, 07 May 2006 - 11:45 AM.

[glennbech]

Nice work! Was it a rye bread or just the starter? Looks like a BIG loaf you've got there .-) I liked the looks of your crumb!

Here is New Question for all you bread bakers that at the same time are owners of Dan lepard's book "The handmade loaf";

In the beginning of the book there is a description on how to shape either a baton, stick or ball. I don't get his description on how to form a "ball", it says something about dragging the doigh left to right while rotating it clockwise.

Can anyone provide a better explanation of this teqhnique?

Edited by glennbech, 07 May 2006 - 01:07 PM.

[glennbech]

Another Q ;

What's the fuss about a baking stone anyway? I havn't tried this yet, but how about smacking the proven loaf directly at the floor of the electric oven (With a baking parchment ofcoursr)? If it's heated to 230c, the floor of the oven should have the same temperature right ? Talk about direct contact with the heatsource! :-)

I might have to lift it up after a while to avoid a black bottom'ed bread though.....

Did anyone try this ?

[Desiderio]

Nice work! Was it a rye bread or just the starter? Looks like a BIG loaf you've got there .-) I liked the looks of your crumb!

Here is New Question for all you bread bakers that at the same time are owners of Dan lepard's book "The handmade loaf";

In the beginning of the book there is a description on how to shape either a baton, stick or ball. I don't get his description on how to form a "ball", it says something about dragging the doigh left to right while rotating it clockwise.

Can anyone provide a better explanation of this teqhnique?

Only the starter is rye , the bread is white ,and yes hehe its a huge loaf , the one I am try to reproduce from my home country is very big probably double the size of mine ,hehe I am not going to make one that size my stone isnt that big .
About the stone I have to tell you that since I bought it and use it for my bread the results are much better ,the heat is distribuited more evenly ( spelling sorry )
the crust seems to have improved since I am using the stone as well ,I have gas oven so I dont know about electric at this poin , even thought I use them inthe past,but the difference is nice and noticeable.I asked Jackal about it , if that would have helped me and he replyed yes becuase the reasons above.
I think next time want to try same formula but shaping baguettes hehe need to make it hard P.

[jackal10]

First shape the ball: flatten the dough into a round, then pick the one point on the edge furthest from you and fold it to the centre, rotate the dough by 45 degrees and repeat 8 times. Turn it over.
After a while, and a few hunderd loaves the action gets automatic, and you see bakers absentmindedly doing this to any piece of dough.
To consolidate it and make it even you need the action that Dan shows.
Its easiest to explain it in bits
Take the ball of dough and push it along the table (or whatever your work surface is) using only one hand flat on one side. You'll see it sort of bulge out the other side as you push, and it rolls. That is the action. The friction against the work surface tightens the dough.
The other hand is just to guide it. Before it falls off the edge pick it up and move it back to where you started. Repeat and it should be a tight ball.

A production baker can average about 100 loaves an hour.

Edited by jackal10, 07 May 2006 - 04:44 PM.

[Desiderio]

Ahh jack is nice to see you back in the discussion ( I immagine at this point you are saturated with all these questions about bread )
I wanted to thank you so much for all the help ,the patience and knowledge you are sharing with us , making it easy for newbies
Your formula, that I used ( was posted on the other thread about bread ), its incredible , I finally got the type of bread that I wanted ,I also used you technique to refrigerated the dough and it makes everything much easier,time wise and shaping peeling wise .
Thank you again

Sincerly

Edited by Desiderio, 07 May 2006 - 05:33 PM.

[glennbech]

Thanks for stepping in with a different explanation jack. I'l maybe have my wife photograph me while make an atempt. :)

Edited by glennbech, 07 May 2006 - 11:34 PM.

[jackal10]

Dan Lepard demonstrating the technique. Pictures by Tepee

[glennbech]

So If I got this right.....

The first picture is the start position. The dough ball is then "pushed" left to right (from dan's point of view), with his left hand? (This process would make it a bit oval right?)

Of course some friction and stickyness from the surface is neccesary here .-)

The dough oposite the hand gets "pulled under" the ball, tightening it... In the last picture he has moved the ball back for another go.

Did I get it right?

Thanks for the cool pictures. Nice to see the master in action .-)

Edited by glennbech, 08 May 2006 - 06:57 AM.

[SweetSide]

So If I got this right.....

The first picture is the start position. The dough ball is then "pushed" left to right (from dan's point of view), with his left hand? (This process would make it a bit oval right?)

Of course some friction and stickyness from the surface is neccesary here .-)

The dough oposite the hand gets "pulled under" the ball, tightening it... In the last picture he has moved the ball back for another go.

Did I get it right?

Thanks for the cool pictures. Nice to see the master in action .-)

You got it -- not an avid bread baker here as the others are, but can still round. When you pull the bread back for another go, give it a slight rotation. Above it mentioned clockwise, but my natural motion is counterclockwise. You'll "feel" a natural rhythm when you do it.

And you are right about the surface stickyness. When first learning, my table had too much flour residue and I couldn't get the friction.

[glennbech]

http://www.glennbech.com/uploaded_images/basket_upclose.jpg[/IMG] 8 2006, 08:47 AM]

You got it -- not an avid bread baker here as the others are, but can still round.  When you pull the bread back for another go, give it a slight rotation.  Above it mentioned clockwise, but my natural motion is counterclockwise.  You'll "feel" a natural rhythm when you do it.

And you are right about the surface stickyness.  When first learning, my table had too much flour residue and I couldn't get the friction.

This was real fun! I managed to get the teqnique right after a few tries. I had an excellent baking day today, with a yeast/sour combo with boiled whole wheat grain, honey and roasted Barley flour still in the oven.

I also made myself some baskets for proofing today! Real fun, and no sweat. rubbed'em with rye flour before use. They worked like a charm!
More pictures at my blog

Edited by glennbech, 08 May 2006 - 03:39 PM.

[Desiderio]

Weee great those are just gourgeus .
Thank you for sharing how to make them , I think this weekend I am out to get some supply to make a couple .
I was wondering how to make something like that but for shaping baguettes while they are profing or resting in the fridge,just linen cloths with folds to hold the shape maybe?
Thank you Glen awesome one ,waiting to see the final results of the bread.Another thing , how do you like Dan lepard book?I was thinking of ordering it , the only one I have now is the Hamelman .

[McDuff]

I'll tell what's humbling...you're the head baker in a startup thing run by two fools, all the bread is sponge and dough, full of honey and dried fruit and nuts, real tight bouncy dough all shaped into rounds,you think you are good, and they hire a guy who really knows his way around the bakeshop, and he can round loaves one with each hand. We were totally in awe. I still can't do it.

[glennbech]

I'll tell what's humbling...you're the head baker in a startup thing run by two fools, all the bread is sponge and dough, full of honey and dried fruit and nuts, real tight bouncy dough all shaped into rounds,you think you are good, and they hire a guy who really knows his way around the bakeshop, and he can round loaves one with each hand. We were totally in awe. I still can't do it.

*grin* well... maybe he's just an "eye hand coordination" natural talent? Or maybe just had loootos and lots of practice .-) Good luck on your startup by the way! :-)

[glennbech]

Weee great those are just gourgeus  .
Thank you for sharing how to make them , I think this weekend I am out to get some supply to make a couple .
I was wondering how to make something like that but for shaping baguettes while they are profing or resting in the fridge,just linen cloths with folds to hold the shape maybe?
Thank you Glen awesome one ,waiting to see the final results of the bread.Another thing , how do you like Dan lepard book?I was thinking of ordering it , the only one I have now is the Hamelman .

I've seen on some tutorials where just a floured linnen cloth and a baking pin is
used to hold baguettes in shape wil proofing. I'm also trying to get my hands on a few oval baskets to hold batons.

Dan Lepard's book (Handmade loaf) is okay. However, only the first few chapters are "knowhow" and "technique" the rest is bread recipe's from around northern europe and russia/ukraina. That is however; Great inspiration! Also has a recipe for an interesing starter on yogurt and rasins .-)

I tried a recipe last night with my hand crafted proofing baskets. They worked so well, and Im so pleased with them. The breads on the other hand were not so great .-)

Since this is a Tecnical Q/A Thread....

Q :How long do you have to soak/boil whole grain wheat to get them moist enogh to include in a bread? I tried like 15 minutes or something, and the bread still had some real hard grain in them.

Q: I'l also not so sure about adding honey (Dan Lepard has a it in many recipe's), it has a real distinct taste.

Q: I experienced first hand that the whole grain pierces the gluten, and reduces rise. Crust development was also real bad as it "cracked up" everywhere. No need to slash these I tell you that.

Can I add pure gluten to such a recipe to counter such an effect? Can I add pure gluten poweder to wheat flour to "boost" it into "strong flour" ?

Q: Is autolysis without leaven and added salt extra important in whole grain, and recipes with a smaller amount of gluten?

Desiderio: I'm Looking forward to seeing those baguettes. I wan to try some myself :)

Edited by glennbech, 08 May 2006 - 10:49 PM.

[Desiderio]

In hamelman book he talks about cold and hot soaker.
Hot with boiled water ) soaker for hard grains , he said it take several hours, and suggest to start the soaker when you start the starter mix.

[glennbech]

About the potency of starters/pre-ferments....


I hope anyone can shed some ligh on this mystery for me... Today, after coming home from work, my tablespoon of starter + 100g flour/100g water was not as potent as It usually is. I always put the preferment in a measuring cup, so that I can see tha actual rise.

The attached image shows a "medium" rise for my starter culture. The "best" I've managed to go from 3 dl to 8-9 dl in about 12 hours (I came home from work 12 hours after starting the pre-ferment, so the actual time may have been less. )

Today, I got a weak 1/3 rise, as compared to a 4/3 rise like earlier.

I forgot the measuring cup in the window, and it has been exposed to direct sunlight for periods of time during the day. Can that have something to do with it ?

My "mother" culture that lives in the fridge has gone into the mode where it has a fluid layer on top. I emptied a lot of it today and fed it flour & water, and are planning to repeat that in 24 hours. Is this really neccesary?

And My real question is; Does the "potency" of the pre-ferment directly affect it's rising capabilities ? I mean does a highly potent pre-ferment rise a dough more and faster? .

Is is possible to use a not so active pre-ferment and just increase proofing / bulk ferment time ?

I guess I will get the answer to this now, as the loaves are in my hand crafted proofing baskets as I type... However after 2 hours of proofing, I can't say I have an explosion .-). .-) Maybe I'll bake one, and see if I get some oven spring. If I don't I just keep proofing the other one 2-3 more hours.

Medium starter activity (according to my observations of my own culture) can be seen here . How does this compare to your starters ?

[Bill44]

[quote name='glennbech' date='May 10 2006, 08:49 AM']
About the potency of starters/pre-ferments....



And My real question is; Does the "potency" of the pre-ferment directly affect it's rising capabilities ? I mean does a highly potent pre-ferment rise a dough more and faster? .

Is is possible to use a not so active pre-ferment and just increase proofing / bulk ferment time ?

Q1.It will rise faster but not necessarily more.
Q2. Yes, and you will possably get a stronger "Sour".
kind regards
Bill