706 replies to this topic

[weinoo]

Each stage of fermentation, proofing, etc. develops flavor.

Try an experiment where you do a shape, rise and bake vs. a primary ferment, shape, proof and bake and see which one you like better.

One of the things I'm getting out of baking a fair amount of bread, is that there's really not any one way of doing it. Lately, I've been adding a tiny bit of commercial yeast to my "sourdough" breads, boosting them, if you will. It's a technique a fair amount of professional bakeries use, and I like the finished product...though it's heresy to say so in the company of certain sourdough purists .

[Cameron Smith]

I like that question Mike and I may try weinoo's experiment.

[hansjoakim]

Each stage of fermentation, proofing, etc. develops flavor.

Try an experiment where you do a shape, rise and bake vs. a primary ferment, shape, proof and bake and see which one you like better.

One of the things I'm getting out of baking a fair amount of bread, is that there's really not any one way of doing it.  Lately, I've been adding a tiny bit of commercial yeast to my "sourdough" breads, boosting them, if you will.  It's a technique a fair amount of professional bakeries use, and I like the finished product...though it's heresy to say so in the company of certain sourdough purists  .

In France, bakers can add fresh yeast up to 0.3% of the flour weight of their final dough, and still sell the product as a sourdough product. That's regulated by law

There's been some research on this, and the results indicate that the final products are not noticeably altered by including small amounts of yeast. Just a little blob of 0.3% can reduce bulk fermentation lengths by 1-1.5 hours, and you still end up with great sourdough bread. I wouldn't call it heresy... it's just being practical, isn't it?

I've also read that sourdough breads only make up about 3% of the total bread consumption in France. That was way lower than what I had expected... I believe the figures are from 2003, so it seems sourdough is pretty much a small niche still.

Edited by hansjoakim, 20 February 2009 - 07:32 AM.

[weinoo]

I wouldn't call it heresy... it's just being practical, isn't it?

Ahhh, hansjoakim, it is. But obviously you haven't seen this topic.

And welcome to the forums, hansjoakim...keep on baking.

[hansjoakim]

I wouldn't call it heresy... it's just being practical, isn't it?

Ahhh, hansjoakim, it is. But obviously you haven't seen this topic.

And welcome to the forums, hansjoakim...keep on baking.

Thanks, Mitch!

Sourdough + Commercial yeast = Minefield.

[MikeJ]

I'd like to experiment with hybrid loaves as well. Some may call it heresy, but people like that have stood in the way of progress for all of recorded history.

[devlin]

I'd like to experiment with hybrid loaves as well.  Some may call it heresy, but people like that have stood in the way of progress for all of recorded history.

No offense, but it's exactly that sort of comment that turns these conversations into mine fields and makes folks like me reluctant to even bother engaging in them.

[Alcuin]

Heresy?! My mom's been making hybrid loaves for many many years now, but I guess the bread Pope hasn't discovered her and hauled her off to the inquisition yet.

I don't use commercial yeast in my weekly breads, preferring a nice long preferment. That doesn't make my mom's bread worse than mine, though it is different for more reasons than one. It's one technique among many--there's no set in stone way of making bread and that's a good thing.

[MikeJ]

I'd like to experiment with hybrid loaves as well.  Some may call it heresy, but people like that have stood in the way of progress for all of recorded history.

No offense, but it's exactly that sort of comment that turns these conversations into mine fields and makes folks like me reluctant to even bother engaging in them.

I meant it to be tongue in cheek - I really can't imagine anyone getting genuinely worked up over something like that.

[devlin]

I'd like to experiment with hybrid loaves as well.  Some may call it heresy, but people like that have stood in the way of progress for all of recorded history.

No offense, but it's exactly that sort of comment that turns these conversations into mine fields and makes folks like me reluctant to even bother engaging in them.

I meant it to be tongue in cheek - I really can't imagine anyone getting genuinely worked up over something like that.

And yet, the thread referenced above would suggest otherwise. But thanks for the clarification.

[MikeJ]

Recently I tried a very warm rise, followed by a 2-day spell in the fridge. This had the desired effect, and made for a pleasingly tangy loaf... unfortunately the loaf was a bit of a brick, as I suppose you might expect given the long retard. Tricky stuff, this breadmaking.

[slkinsey]

Right. It's a brick because acid degrades gluten, and gluten is what makes bread light. I don't know that I've ever had truly sour bread that was also light with an open crumb.

[abooja]

What is the texture and taste of a classic San Francisco sourdough loaf? Dense and tangy? Somewhat tangy, but light enough to be palatable to the masses? I know that I can adjust the sourness and lightness of my bread to suit my own tastes, but am wondering what the gold standard, if any, is.

[weinoo]

What is the texture and taste of a classic San Francisco sourdough loaf?  Dense and tangy?  Somewhat tangy, but light enough to be palatable to the masses?  I know that I can adjust the sourness and lightness of my bread to suit my own tastes, but am wondering what the gold standard, if any, is.

I don't know that there is any "gold standard," as I think it's really a matter of personal taste. When I'm lucky enough to be in San Francisco, eating a walk-away dungeness crab cocktail, I want Boudin sourdough - not too dense but very tangy...and probably with a bit of commercial yeast in there.

Poillane, which I'd eat every day of the week if it wasn't so damn expensive here, is much different, and risen with wild yeast.

And the bread I bake at home - well, almost as good as any local sourdough, especially when it's not a doorstop.

[djyee100]

What is the texture and taste of a classic San Francisco sourdough loaf?  Dense and tangy?  Somewhat tangy, but light enough to be palatable to the masses?  I know that I can adjust the sourness and lightness of my bread to suit my own tastes, but am wondering what the gold standard, if any, is.

I agree, sourdough bread, like most anything else, is a matter of taste. That said, I'm not a fan of Boudin breads. I always recommend Acme's pain au levain to people as a great SF sourdough bread.

I would describe Acme's pain au levain as tasting tangy with a sour note. The sour note is distinctly sour, but not very sour (not pucker up sour). It's definitely a tangy bread, though. Pain au levain has great crust, great crumb, great aroma...I could go on, but I prefer to eat it. Below, a pic so you can see the density of the bread. (Abooja's post was my excuse to buy a loaf on my way home. )



Acme has an outlet in the Ferry Bldg on Embarcadero in SF.
http://www.ferrybuil...ead_company.php

[weinoo]

Damn, if only...that is one beautiful looking loaf.

Is there the teeniest bit of commercial yeast in there? Got an ingredient list?

[devlin]

Is there the teeniest bit of commercial yeast in there?  Got an ingredient list?

Quick question.... I'm wondering why you'd wonder whether there was even a tiny bit of commercial yeast in the loaf. Is there something about the look of it that suggests it might have any commercial yeast in it? Just curious about the question.

[djyee100]

Damn, if only...that is one beautiful looking loaf. 

Yes, I say that too.

Is there the teeniest bit of commercial yeast in there?  Got an ingredient list?

The ingredients list from the paper bag that the bread comes in: Unbleached organic wheat flour, water, whole wheat starter, organic whole wheat flour, salt, malted barley flour. That's it. This bread has been compared to the Poilane miche. It's the bread that comes to the table at Chez Panisse and the Zuni Cafe in SF.

I wish I knew more about lactobacillus sanfrancisco, the bacterial organism that is credited with the uniqueness of SF sourdough. Reinhart in BBA only says: "San Francisco sourdough bread...has a particular type of local bacteria called Lactobacillus sanfrancisco that gives this bread a different quality, more sour with a thicker crust, than any other wild-yeast bread made in other parts of the world."

A 1987 article in the NYT about outstanding sourdough breads in SF. The Acme pain au levain and the Cheese Board's sourdough baguettes (mmm...) are still sold.
http://query.nytimes...n=&pagewanted=1

ETA: If you are in SF and don't want to cross the Bay to the Cheese Board in Berkeley, you can find the same kind of breads at the Arizmendi Bakery in SF. The Arizmendi Bakery is a child of the Cheese Board, and shares their bread recipes.
http://www.arizmendibakery.org/

Edited by djyee100, 28 February 2009 - 05:17 PM.

[slkinsey]

Virtually all sourdough cultures "with a tradition of continuous propagation" have Lactobacillus sanfranciscensis (note the spelling) as the dominant lactobacillus.

[weinoo]

Is there the teeniest bit of commercial yeast in there?  Got an ingredient list?

Quick question.... I'm wondering why you'd wonder whether there was even a tiny bit of commercial yeast in the loaf. Is there something about the look of it that suggests it might have any commercial yeast in it? Just curious about the question.

Maybe not the look of it - I just wonder about commercial bakeries and their need to pump out a standard product, without worrying about any variations.

My sourdough varies so much, but then again I'm not baking hundreds or thousands of loaves every day.

[slkinsey]

Yea, I think most any bread bakery that is making sourdough as an every-day production item will have sufficient consistency that they don't need to slip in any commercial yeast to get the results they want. That said, it also tends to be the case that, say, the sourdough baguettes are not as puffy as the same bakery's commercial yeast baguettes.

[MikeJ]

Finally achieved something approaching the open texture I've been after since I started! I think the difference must be that I've been using slkinsey's method of keeping a small quantity of starter, refreshing it with a high ratio of new flour/water to old starter, and using a small but very active inoculation for the dough.

Tastes pretty good too, more importantly.

Edited by MikeJ, 03 March 2009 - 05:12 AM.

[MikeJ]

Here's a question: why does a loaf get sourer over time? The one above is definitely a lot more tangy now than on the day it was baked. Surely it gets too hot for bacteria to survive within?

[weinoo]

Awesome looking bread Mike, and maybe we can figure out why the bread attains a more sour taste as it ages.

I just got me a copy of Ed Wood's Classic Sourdoughs and had to put it to immediate use. My first attempt from the book was Ed's recipe for San Francisco Sourdough Bread. Now, I don't own any culture other than my own, so I used that and otherwise followed the recipe exactly.

Ed's technique involves building the ferment with 1/2 cup of culture, 1 cup of flour and 1/2 cup of water. This is allowed to ferment for 12 hours at room temp and then another cup of flour and 1/2 cup of water are added and the whole thing is then fermented for another 8 hours. Here's what it looked like after approximately 20 hours.



At this point, the final dough is mixed, using the whole shebang, along with the rest of the flour, water and salt per the recipe. After sufficient kneading, the dough is formed into loaves, either free form or in pans, allowed to proof at room temp for another 3 to 4 hours until sufficiently risen (mine only took 2 1/2), and then baked off. No refrigerator retardation or any of that stuff.

Well, I have to say, I'm pleasantly surprised at the results. I doubled the recipe, made 2 pan loaves and got a great rise. The bread tastes great with a not-too-crusty crust, and I've been wanting to make loaf-bread for a while, for the ease of slicing and sandwich making. Ed also recommends the La Cloche, but for now, I'm happy with this result.

[djyee100]

Some good-looking efforts here.

I believe the loaf tastes more sour as it dries out. Peter Reinhart in Bread Baker's Apprentice mentions this on page 97, in the cooling step of bread: "During this time (the loaves) continue to evaporate moisture, drying out and ...intensifying in flavor." I assume this process continues even after the loaves have completely cooled but continue to dry out at room temp.

I also came across this note in Reinhart's BBA, for anyone interested in making a more sour loaf (MikeJ?). The box on page 234: "(A) mother starter as a very dry dough...makes a very sour bread...Acetic bacteria prefer the denser, less-aerated environment of the firm starter..." Reinhart then says that to make a firm starter, reduce the water weight to 50-57 percent of flour weight when refreshing the mother starter.

For myself, I've been eating sourdough but not making it. I was in the neighborhood of the Arizmendi Bakery in SF yesterday, and bought one of their sourdough baguettes. (Also a sticky pecan roll, which was consumed with coffee before I even left the premises, a corn cherry scone, and sourdough English muffins. I went to the bakery to buy only the baguette. ) This sourdough baguette, similar to the one at the Cheese Board in Berkeley, is mild as far as sourdoughs go. It is tangy, but not sour. But I do like my sourdoughs that way. Below, a pic to show you the density of the bread.



The recipe for this bread is available on Googlebooks here:
http://books.google.... works#PPA93,M1

[andiesenji]

Very nice examples. I also have Ed Wood's book (and the earlier one) and have used many of his recipes.
I have some other books dealing with sourdough that I have delved into from time to time.

I can say that to get an open crumb with large holes, I work the dough as little as possible.
To get a tight, evenly fine crumb, I work the dough much longer and gauge the final rise, after shaping and panning, when I can dimple it and the dimple recovers very slowly.

I documented the activation and use of a new culture from Ed Wood in the sourdough starter thread a few days ago.
Here, in post # 278.

As you can see, the loaf has a fairly fine, even crumb, no big holes and is firm enough to slice very thin.
I wanted this result because I wished to use it for sandwiches and for preparing a batch of melba toast.

I oiled the top before baking because I did not want a thick, chewy crust and I got exactly the result I wanted.
I will be baking another batch tomorrow and will work the dough much less and see what type of crumb results.

As I wrote in that post, this is an extremely active culture, developing rapidly and with a lot of action.

Edited by andiesenji, 11 March 2009 - 03:27 PM.

[weinoo]

For myself, I've been eating sourdough but not making it. I was in the neighborhood of the Arizmendi Bakery in SF yesterday, and bought one of their sourdough baguettes. (Also a sticky pecan roll, which was consumed with coffee before I even left the premises, a corn cherry scone, and sourdough English muffins. I went to the bakery to buy only the baguette.  ) This sourdough baguette, similar to the one at the Cheese Board in Berkeley, is mild as far as sourdoughs go. It is tangy, but not sour. But I do like my sourdoughs that way. Below, a pic to show you the density of the bread.



The recipe for this bread is available on Googlebooks here:
http://books.google.... works#PPA93,M1

And you're trying to make us all jealous, aren't you ?

[djyee100]

And you're trying to make us all jealous, aren't you  ?

My apologies. Not really. Didn't somebody ask about the flavor and density of SF sourdough upthread?

[MikeJ]

Weinoo, nice looking pan loaf. I like that shape as well, sometimes slices of boule don't quite fit in the toaster.

djyee100, thanks for the tip on the firm starter. I've got one fermenting overnight, so I'l bake tomorrow and see what kind of results I get.

[weinoo]

Weinoo, nice looking pan loaf.  I like that shape as well, sometimes slices of boule don't quite fit in the toaster.

djyee100, thanks for the tip on the firm starter.  I've got one fermenting overnight, so I'l bake tomorrow and see what kind of results I get.

Thanks...tonight, I'm going to set up another culture preferment. The hardest part with Wood's technique is counting backwards so that I'm actually around to bake the bread when the bread is ready to be baked. With a 12 hour preferment, an 8 hour ferment, and a 4 hour proof, it gets a little mathematical.