706 replies to this topic

[slkinsey]

The holes are exactly what you want!

Contributors to an open crumb like that are: high hydration, limited kneading, low gluten dough, gluten degradation by acid, and baking from a cold dough.  These are all tricky to finesse, especially with a sourdough, because these doughs can be quite delicate and easily deflate.

Could you talk a little bit about how to achieve each of these?

Sure!

I usually knead dough until it passes the windowpane test. When you say "limited kneading," would that mean the dough does not pass the windowpane test?

Yes, that means not kneading until the dough passes the windowpane test. When you fully knead a dough, you are making sure that the gluten is developed and interlinked as fully and evenly as possible. This equals a regular crumb.

If you knead substantially less than that, and I sometimes knead only until the dough seems fully mixed, there will be some places where the gluten is more fully developed and interlinked than others. In addition, there is some development and interlinkage of gluten that happens purely by chemical means with no kneading needed (this is how "no knead" bread dough works). All these things lead to a more irregular crumb.

Low gluten dough: would you suggest using AP flour, rather than bread flour, to limit the protein and gluten?

Yes. I also prefer the flavor of AP flour over bread flour.

What do you mean by "gluten degradation by acid"?

Acid actually breaks down the gluten. This is why a sourdough that has been fermented too long will simply break apart: because the gluten has been degraded to the point where it is not able to hold the dough together. This is also why, the longer a sourdough is fermented, the more delicate the dough is. It is the central challenge of sourdough baking, because longer fermentation equals more flavor but it also equals a weaker dough -- so you're always playing a game, trying to push the fermentation as long as you can but still having a dough strong enough to produce an open crumb instead of a doorstop.

Some information on this phenomenon may be found in this paper: Effects of Acid-Soluble and Acid-Insoluble Gluten Proteins on the Rheological and Baking Properties of Wheat Flours. Preston et al. CChem 57:314 (1980)

Gluten, isolated from a hard red spring wheat flour, was fractionated into acid-soluble and acid-insoluble protein fractions. The effects of adding increasing levels of these fractions and of unfractionated and reconstituted gluten upon the rheological and baking properties of two base flours varying in baking quality were investigated. Results with the mixograph and farinograph suggested that the dough-strengthening effects obtained when gluten proteins were added to the base flours were mainly due to proteins present in the acid-soluble gluten fraction, whereas the acid-insoluble gluten proteins at higher levels had a slight dough-weakening effect. Addition of increasing levels of gluten to the base flours significantly increased loaf volume with both the Grain Research Laboratory's Chorleywood and remix baking procedures. Similar increases in loaf volume were also obtained by addition of the acid-soluble gluten proteins. Addition of acid-insoluble gluten proteins significantly reduced loaf volumes.

More or less what this is saying is that the part of gluten that is responsible for loaf volume is also the part that can be degraded by acid.

I haven't had much success baking a cold dough - this is the only step in jackal10's lesson that I don't follow. When I bake directly out of the fridge, the final loaf tends to bulge out on one side. So I usually leave the dough out for about 2 hours prior to baking.

Try larger slashes in the dough.

[Darren72]

Wonderful - thanks so much!

[MikeJ]

Hi everyone - new member here, although I've been scouring the forums for useful sourdough information for about two months now. What a great resource this site is, and what an amazing group of people to be able to glean wisdom from.

I started a sourdough culture a couple months ago using the flour+water+time method, I believe after reading Jeffrey Steingarten's article on his own experiences with naturally leavened bread. Aside from pizza dough I've actually never baked bread with commercial yeast before (I just turned 23, so that's not as strange as it might seem). My sourdough breads have been my first and only breads thus far, so hopefully I'll find it that much easier using commercial yeast when I eventually do.

Anyways, I've been baking sourdough on a regular basis using my starter and jackal10's excellent Sourdough Bread Tutorial. My first efforts were fairly dense, bland and disappointing, but recently the starter seems to have improved in both flavour and activity despite (or maybe because of) surviving a 3-week trip from London to Vancouver and back. I've also adjusted the rising time from 4 hours to 8 or 9, which has made a big difference.

Here are a couple pictures of a recent loaf:

Edited by MikeJ, 09 January 2009 - 12:36 AM.

[gfron1]

Welcome Mike. That does look like a nice loaf. Eight hours of rise seems long unless you keep your kitchen cool. I've gotten in the habit of tossing my loaves in my upper (not turned on) oven 20 minutes before its going into the lower (425F) oven. This has given it a supercharge of rising and has dramatically helped the shape/oven rise of my loaves. If you have a set up that allows that, see what happens. But first, check your room temp. I also do a cup of steaming water and it all rests under a trash bag. The water goes in after 1 hour of bringing the bread to room temp.

Edited by gfron1, 09 January 2009 - 06:04 AM.

[judec]

I've also adjusted the rising time from 4 hours to 8 or 9, which has made a big difference.

Hey Mike.. How's the tang with an 8 hour rise?
May I also ask what camera you use? :) Nice loaf and photos.

[MikeJ]

Welcome Mike.  That does look like a nice loaf.  Eight hours of rise seems long unless you keep your kitchen cool.  I've gotten in the habit of tossing my loaves in my upper (not turned on) oven 20 minutes before its going into the lower (425F) oven.  This has given it a supercharge of rising and has dramatically helped the shape/oven rise of my loaves.  If you have a set up that allows that, see what happens.  But first, check your room temp.  I also do a cup of steaming water and it all rests under a trash bag.  The water goes in after 1 hour of bringing the bread to room temp.

For the last few weeks I've been baking at my family's house in Vancouver and it's been pretty cold even indoors, so that's probably why I needed to add the extra time. I'm in London now, and left a boule in the kitchen to rise a couple hours ago. The kitchen is kept fairly warm by an Aga and the loaf has already doubled in size, so I guess that temperature change really is making a huge difference. I ought to pick up a thermometer sometime soon so I can put some numbers on the temperatures.

I do have a setup that allows me to throw the loaves in a warm upper oven before baking, so I'll give that a try next time, probably after a slow rise at a cool temperature for flavour.

Hey Mike.. How's the tang with an 8 hour rise?
May I also ask what camera you use? :) Nice loaf and photos.

Thanks! The sourness actually varies a lot from loaf to loaf, seemingly independent of all variables... some loaves are perfectly tangy, some not even remotely sour. Retarding the dough overnight in the fridge sometimes helps and sometimes doesn't.

The camera is a Nikon D40, and the lens is a Nikor 18-55mm F/3.5-5.6.

Edited by MikeJ, 09 January 2009 - 09:55 AM.

[weinoo]

Hi MikeJ,

Welcome to the forums - nice to have you and your great looking bread here.

What type of flour are you using in London? Jack's recipe calls for some
fairly easy-to-get supermarket flour, if I recall...

[MikeJ]

Thanks for the kind welcome. The loaf in the picture was made in Vancouver, using Robin Hood unbleached AP flour plus 1/4 cup or so of spelt flour. In London I've been using Allinson's strong white bread flour, mainly because the store nearest my house carries it. I've tried their Very Strong White bread flour as well (13.9% protein) but didn't really like the texture it gave the crumb.

[jackal10]

I use an Aga all the time - the base of the hot oven is ideal for bread making, baking directly on the floor of the oven. Throw in a cup of water and shut the door, and there is your steam.

AGA make a great baker's peel for the oven, excpt they call it a paddle
http://www.agacooksh.../Products/W1825

The flour I used was Tesco Plain Organic flour (red stripe on black bag at the moment). About 10% protein. The actual flour does not matter that much, but its worth staying with and getting to know one type, and you can adjust the recipe to suit. I'm currently very fond of Rebecca Rayner's Glebe Farm Flour : http://www.glebe-flour.co.uk/main.html , especially their organic spelt.
Tesco and Waitrose carry some of their mixes, but you can buy the pure flour online from the farm. Its grown and milled there or locally.

Many things affect the acidity, including the ash content of the flour, the temperature of fermentation, especially of the pre-ferment. Most of the flavour I believe comes from the preferment, so if you want sour give the pre-ferment and extended fermentation (eg 24 hours at 28C)

[gfron1]

I used to obsess over temperature (you said you needed a thermometer), but I've given that up. bread has a mind of its own. It will be ready when its ready.

[MikeJ]

I can't help it - I'm still at the stage where I want to know everything and test everything to do with sourdough.

Of course that will never happen, but my problem is I haven't even baked enough to be able to isolate the effects of a variable like temperature on a given loaf - there's too much loaf-to-loaf inconsistency right now, even when I don't purposefully change anything.

I've got a test batch of sourdough a l'ancienne in the works right now... 12 hour preferment using 1/4 of the total flour, quick mix with ice water and the rest of the flour/salt, and into the fridge. I'm going to take it out in 48 hours and let it come back to room temperature, then shape and let it rise for 4 hours or so. If that doesn't give it a little tang, I might just give up altogether.

I also want to try a loaf where I swap half the water out for a local unpasteurized cask ale. I don't know if the little microbes living in that will taste good in bread, but they sure do the trick for the beer.

[MikeJ]

Here are a couple more pictures. This loaf was huge and satisfying, but no matter what I try I can't seem to get the sourness and open crumb that I'm after, even with high hydrations and long preferments.

[weinoo]

How about less kneading and more folding the dough - have you been doing that?

Sourdough is easily the most frustrating thing I've ever cooked...errr, baked. But I've got some preferment going on right now!

[MikeJ]

I've got a preferment on right now too. It's become an obsession! I almost feel like I want to perfect sourdough just so I never have to make it ever again. :D

I'll try less kneading and more folding with this next loaf, though.

[jackal10]

Longer bulk fermentation and less proof

http://www.danlepard...der=asc&start=0

http://www.danlepard...der=asc&start=0

[devlin]

I've got a preferment on right now too.  It's become an obsession!  I almost feel like I want to perfect sourdough just so I never have to make it ever again. :D

I'll try less kneading and more folding with this next loaf, though.

Try no kneading at all and only folding. I gave up kneading altogether a few years ago. Great pics.

[carp]

...so if you want sour give the pre-ferment and extended fermentation (eg 24 hours at 28C)

I am trying to get the most sour results I can with a San Francisco culture. I have a pre-ferment at 28C and I have been baking samples from it every 24-hours since Sunday.

I am using your EGCI recipe, so I began with one-cup of cold starter then added one-cup of AP flour and one-cup of water. My first sample was baked after 4 hours. Then every 24-hours I take a cup of starter to bake my sample and then refresh the culture with another cup of water and a cup of flour.

So far the results don't show much increase in sourness. I am still getting a healthy rise out of the yeast and good bread, but it seems the bacteria are not producing appreciably more acidity.

Should I increase the temperature of the culture? Should I try a less-hydrated pre-ferment (or more hydrated)? Should I be looking at the flour? Or is there some other factor I should be considering?

[jackal10]

There are many factors that affect the "sourness" of the taste.

1. Temperature.


(derived from research by Michael Ganzle)

You can increase bacterial activity with regard to the yeast either by fermenting hot (90F) or cool (40F) - typically the pe-ferment phase where you are not concerned with optimising the rise.

However lacto bacteria strains tend to produce more lactic acid when fermented hot (homofermentative strains) and more acetic acid when cold (heterofermentative strains). Acetic acid tastes tangier.
One way is to ferment the preferment cool for a long time - retard the preferment or the dough in the fridge for 24hours.

28C/82F is not quite hot enough to favour the bacteria. 90F/33C would be better.

2) Use a stiffer peferment - 50% hydration.
Stiffer preferments favour heterofermentive species. The flavour profile change is subtle but definite. However stiffer preferments are harder to mix into the dough evenly by hand, especially if you use the stretch and fold or minimal kneading technique - break them up with the water that you will make the dough with, then mix that into the dough.

c) Use a low ash flour.
The ash content is a reflection of the mineral content of the flour and that tends to be alkaline, so reduces the acid tang. However US flours rarely quote the ash content, where as french flour classification is based on it.

Edited by jackal10, 23 January 2009 - 04:11 AM.

[MikeJ]

I had some level of success with the last loaf... high hydration (didn’t use scales, but it was too wet to knead), no kneading, no folding. 1/2 white flour, 1/3 rye, 1/6 whole wheat. Prefermented with 66% of the total flour for 12 hours, then mixed in the rest, poured into a circular baking tin, and let rise overnight. In the morning I had to clean it up a bit since it had overflowed, but it came out well despite making a horribly messy job of the whole thing: thin, crisp and savoury crust, delicate crumb and open-ish texture, nice balance between caraway flavour and the subtle sourness of the rye.

[MikeJ]

Today's loaf: I used very strong (14%) flour, and the hydration was a little low, which resulted in a fairly uniform crumb. But at least it's soft and fluffy rather than dense.

Also a good excuse to try out a new lens I bought the other day.

Edited by MikeJ, 17 February 2009 - 09:45 AM.

[MikeJ]

Try no kneading at all and only folding. I gave up kneading altogether a few years ago.  Great pics.

I tried the no-knead-only-fold method this evening and the boule is in the fridge for the night... I'll post the results tomorrow. I'm kind of hoping it won't work, because the kneading is actually one of my favourite parts.

[devlin]

Try no kneading at all and only folding. I gave up kneading altogether a few years ago.  Great pics.

I tried the no-knead-only-fold method this evening and the boule is in the fridge for the night... I'll post the results tomorrow. I'm kind of hoping it won't work, because the kneading is actually one of my favourite parts.

I get that. For me, when I'm looking at three 20 pound buckets of dough to work in rapid succession, kneading loses its charm.

[hansjoakim]

To knead or not to knead, that's the question!

Unfortunately, I don't have any experience with buckets of dough, but, as an active home baker, my experience is that both techniques work. The final loaves will likely turn out different, so it boils down to your particular recipe, and what you find most attractive in the loaf.

There's a brilliant discussion about mixing in Suas' "Advanced Bread and Pastry". If you don't have the book, a condensed version can be found here: SFBI Newsletter

A very short knead, followed by a long bulk fermentation and several folds, will typically result in an irregular crumb structure and a slightly lower bread profile. The dough is often a bit wet, and the extensibility of the dough is favored over strength. A well-kneaded dough will have a much more developed gluten network, more strength, a rounder bread profile and a more regular crumb, with many small pockets.

I like to do a "short mix" for your average Italian-style doughs (wet ciabattas etc.), while I prefer better mixed doughs for just about anything else. I'm usually aiming for a sort of windowpane, not a perfect one, but still signs of a well-developed dough, and then often a single (or no) fold(s) midway during bulk fermentation.

But, as I said, it's down to what you prefer!

Edited by hansjoakim, 19 February 2009 - 01:17 AM.

[MikeJ]

Results were somewhat encouraging, but the oven spring wasn't great and I'd still like a more open texture. Still, it's a step in the right direction.

[abooja]

I actually like the looks of this loaf better than the last (low hydration loaf) which, while beautiful, looked a bit too tightly wound. This one appears to have been made from a more slack dough.

[judec]

Results were  somewhat encouraging, but the oven spring wasn't great and I'd still like a more open texture.  Still, it's a step in the right direction.

Huge difference from the previous loaf. Does that use the same high gluten flour?

[MikeJ]

The dough was definitely much slacker this time around. Tough to work with (for me, anyways), which is why the loaf came out sort of lumpy.

The flour was about half 14% protein flour, and half 12%, plus a handful of wholegrain rye.

[slkinsey]

c) Use a low ash flour.
The ash content is a reflection of the mineral content of the flour and that tends to be alkaline, so reduces the acid tang. However US flours rarely quote the ash content, where as french flour classification is based on it.

I just noticed this. My understanding has been that this works in exactly the opposite way. The ash content in the flour works as a buffer and forestalls lowering of the dough's pH into the range at which the lactobacilli are inhibited. This results in greater total titratable acidity in the dough compared to a lower ash dough fermented to a similar pH. In the case of bread, it is the total acidity rather than just pH that produces the sour and other desirable flavors we like in sourdough breads.

A good way to test this is to use your normal method, but use whole wheat flour instead of white flour. The bread will be noticably more sour than usual. This is because of the greater ash content of the whole wheat flour. Whenever I have taken measures to increase ash content, I have ended up with more sourness.

[MikeJ]

Why not just add a little lye?

[MikeJ]

I have a question: is it necessary to have a proof stage AND a shape stage if you're only making one loaf? I can see the logic if you're making multiple loaves from the same dough, but otherwise I'm not sure I understand the point. Is there a reason you'd want to let the dough rise as an amorphous blob, shape it, and then let it rise some more, rather than just shaping it from the beginning and then letting it rise fully?



Today's crumb:



Incidentally, I apologize for flooding this thread with my pics - I just don't know too many people in real life who are remotely interested in bread, aside from eating it.

Edited by MikeJ, 20 February 2009 - 04:38 AM.