706 replies to this topic

[polack]

I too used Nancy's recipe and make some of the best bread that I've tasted. When I first started I also didn't have the sour taste like like you mentioned so I asked the people on this site for help. I ran a thread on sourdough starter and here's what some of the answers were for the sour flavor. Let your starter set in a temp. of 85F and let your starter sit a longer period of time without feeding it should make the taste more tart. If you could find that thread, you will find some very good pointers from Jackal, Boulack, and a few others that will get you streightened out. I know when I bake my bread the top crust will get somewhat distorted, good and crispy, and very chewey. I don't know if you stretch and fold but that's one thing Jackal mentioned and I do it 3 to 4 times when I'm proofing the dough.
Polack

[polack]

I too used Nancy's recipe and make some of the best bread that I've tasted. When I first started I also didn't have the sour taste like like you mentioned so I asked the people on this site for help. I ran a thread on sourdough starter and here's what some of the answers were for the sour flavor. Let your starter set in a temp. of 85F and let your  starter sit a longer period of time without feeding it should make the taste more tart. If you could find that thread, you will find some very good pointers from Jackal, Boulack, and a few others that will get you streightened out. I know when I bake my bread the top crust will get somewhat distorted, good and crispy, and very chewey. I don't know if you stretch and fold but that's one thing Jackal mentioned and I do it 3 to 4 times when I'm proofing the dough.
Polack

I forgot to mention that I put a small cast iron pan in the oven and when I put the loaves in to bake on the stone, I put the water in the pan, shut the oven door and don't open it until the bread is baked. My oven is set at 400F and it takes roughly 45 minutes for them to bake.

[SethG]

Nice-looking loaf, j.

I have a few thoughts:

1. You appear to be keeping a "stiff" starter, which some maintain produces less sour flavor than a "liquid" starter. Have you tried liquid (100% hydration, i.e. equal weights flour and water)? You could refresh it as liquid and save some of the refreshed starter for your next loaf rather than saving a piece of fermented dough.

2. You'll get a lot more sourness if you let your dough rise at a higher temperature. Jack Lang has reproduced a chart here in a few places which shows the bacterial development (which produces acidity and sourness) going off the chart as the temperature of your rising dough gets up into the 80s.

3. You're refreshing your starter and then using it immediately. If you refresh the starter, and then let it sit in the fridge for a day or two, it will still work (despite whatever Silverton might say), and the bacterial development will continue in the fridge, producing more sour flavor in your final bread.

As for the slashes, yours look good to me! You get that raised ridge by holding your lame at a very shallow angle to the bread as you slash-- almost horizontal. It also might help to uncover your dough for a little while-- 10 or 20 minutes-- before you slash. This forms a little bit of a skin that can help define your slashes.

I'd love to see your crumb. What percentage hydration are you using? You've given a mixture of ounces and grams in your formula, and I haven't the energy to figure it out for myself.

[SethG]

One other thing!

You could also try using more starter as a percentage of your total ingredients.

A lot of folks maintain, by the way, that the sour tang you get in San Fran is particular to the lactobacillus that is native to the area. Of course, you're there in that area, so maybe you have it!

Edited by SethG, 23 February 2005 - 07:11 PM.

[fiftydollars]

Nice-looking loaf, j.

I have a few thoughts:

1.  You appear to be keeping a "stiff" starter, which some maintain produces less sour flavor than a "liquid" starter.  Have you tried liquid (100% hydration, i.e. equal weights flour and water)?  You could refresh it as liquid and save some of the refreshed starter for your next loaf rather than saving a piece of fermented dough.

2.  You'll get a lot more sourness if you let your dough rise at a higher temperature.  Jack Lang has reproduced a chart here in a few places which shows the bacterial development (which produces acidity and sourness) going off the chart as the temperature of your rising dough gets up into the 80s. 

3.  You're refreshing your starter and then using it immediately.  If you refresh the starter, and then let it sit in the fridge for a day or two, it will still work (despite whatever Silverton might say), and the bacterial development will continue in the fridge, producing more sour flavor in your final bread.

As for the slashes, yours look good to me!  You get that raised ridge by holding your lame at a very shallow angle to the bread as you slash-- almost horizontal.  It also might help to uncover your dough for a little while-- 10 or 20 minutes-- before you slash.  This forms a little bit of a skin that can help define your slashes.

I'd love to see your crumb.  What percentage hydration are you using?  You've given a mixture of ounces and grams in your formula, and I haven't the energy to figure it out for myself.

Is there a particular starter recipe you would recommend?

[SethG]

Is there a particular starter recipe you would recommend?

I made my starter, whom I call Ringo, using Peter Reinhart's instructions in The Bread Baker's Apprentice, page 229. This particular starter begins with coarse rye flour, and once it gets going, you feed it with white flour until the rye is no longer a part of the picture. Reinhart has other methods which don't call for rye, but this particular method worked well for me. Rye flour loves to ferment, and my starter grew like gangbusters for a day or two. As I transitioned it to white flour, it seemed to stop growing, but with persistent feeding it became a working starter withn a week or so.

I wouldn't recommend Silverton's method, mostly because of unneccessary stuff it contains (grape skins) and the impractical amount of starter it produces-- but it ought to work. Really any method that starts with flour and water and tells you to feed it at regular intervals should work. But I would tell anyone following any method to disregard the timetables in most of these starter recipes. If your starter isn't growing as much as it ought to be by day three or four, don't despair. Just establish some regular pattern of feeding, be it once, twice or three times a day, and keep doing it for several days, and you ought to have progress.

[jackal10]

Most of the sourness comes from the acidity added with the long developed dough in the sponge starter. If you want the bread sourer let the starter develop more - let it sit in the warm overnight after the last feeding but before use.
Also allow time for amylisation - mix the dough without the salt, leave half an hour, then add in the salt.


I calculate your recipe as follows:

                        Flour       Water
                        -------     --------
300g Starter             187.5       112.5
500g Flour               500.0
300g water                           300.0
Totals                   687.5       412.5
Bakers percentage        100.0%       60.0%

Salt is 10g or 1.45%

60% is quite a stiff dough. If you want bigger holes and a more open crumb you might want to increase the amount of water, say by 50g to 350g for a 67% hydration. Salt is also a little light, normally 2% or 14g, but it depends on your taste.

As mentioned above, slash at an angle, so you are almost cutting a flap, and maybe a bit deeper.

It may just be the photography, but the loaf looks a little pale, either not baked long enough (40 mins), or your oven is not at the temperature yiu think - it might be worth checking the oven temperature with a thermometer.

Admin: Edited to fix legibility of chart

[slkinsey]

To generally address a few points here:

1. Contrary to some opinions, I think it is a bad idea to let the starter "age and become more sour" before adding it to the dough. The reason for this is quite simple: by the time a starter is becoming noticably sour it is already well bast peak growth conditions and the population of microorganisms is actually beginning to die down. When you mix the starter together with the dough, you want the yeast/lacrobacillus population as large and healthy as possible so it can do its thing.

2. One way to add a big slug of acid to your dough and still use a healthy starter is to "pre-ferment" a separate piece of dough. In this case, you would mix up about 1/4 of your eventual bread recipe, inoculate it with the starter and let that ferment until it became very sour (e.g., 24 hours). Then, when you mix the final dough you can mix the pre-fermented dough (full of acid now) together with the remaining 3/4 of the flour/water from your bread recipe and an inoculum of fresh starter. It is possible, however, to make a very sour loaf of bread without adding any "soured dough" simply by using a strong flour and doing a lengthy fermentation.

3. The sourness of bread is largely determined by the ash content of the flour. Sourdough lactobacilli aren't so much affected by acid concentrations, but they are affected by low pH. Flours with a higher ash content have greater buffering power and therefore are able to accumulate more acid before the pH gets too low (growth is inhibited at pH 3.8 and acid production stops at 3.6). This is why whole wheat doughs tend to be more sour than white wheat doughs (whole wheat has a much greater ash content).

4. It may also help to add a bit of diastatic malt powder to your dough. One reason that rye flour produces such strong fermentations is that rye flour has high enzymatic activity which breaks down the starch into sugars that can be consumed by the yeasts and lactobacilli. White wheat flour has comparitively low enzymatic activity, and it is possible that the organisme simply run out of food before they can produce enough acid to be inhibited. Diastatic malt powder includes diastase, which is an enzyme that breaks down starch into sugars (thus providing food for the microorganisms to do their thing).

5. One thing you have to be aware of is the fact that acid breaks down gluten. So you need to have a very strong flour with lots of gluten if you want to go extra-sour.

6. To improve the crumb of your bread, I would encourage you to go with more hydration as others have suggested. You might also experiment with retarding the dough in the refrigerator. I like the effect retardation produces. I also find that a slightly cold dough has less tendency to deflate when slashed and produces a much more dramatic oven spring -- both of which would probably help with your "healing slashes" problem.

7. I'm not entirely convinced on the whole "rising at high temperature" thing. Here is a chart of representative growth rates for sourdough lactobacilli and yeasts:

Up to about 28C (82.5F) we have fairly similar growth rates for yeasts and lactobacilli. Yeast growth is increasingly inhibited above 28C, with no growth at 38C (96.8F). If one wanted to create temperature conditions that significantly favor lactobacteria over yeast 30C (86F) would seem to be the ideal dough temperature. However, this is problematic for a number of reasons: First, if the temperature dips much below 30C there is not much effect and you're going to a lot of trouble for nothing. Second, if you go much higher than 30C you're getting into an area where the yeast is significantly inhibited, which is not so good either. Third, remember it's the dough temperature that counts, not the ambient temperature. It's not as easy as you might think to keep the dough temperature right where you want it, and it's very easy to undershoot or overshoot.

Fundamentally, though, I think the temperature manipulation method is based on some flawed assumptions. First, it is not the case that the yeasts do all the leavening while the lactobacilli only produce acid. In fact, scientists estimate that the lactobacilli typically do about half of the leavening. So, if the premise is that a temperature condition that favors lactobacilli over yeasts gives the bacteria more time to do their souring thing before the dough is leavened, that is unlikely to be significant. Second, as explained above, the sourness of the bread is largely determined by the buffering power of the dough, although the enzymatic action of the dough (as it affects the available food supply) and the gluten content of the dough (as it affects the dough's ability to maintain integrity and leavening after gluten is degraded by acid) are contributing factors as well. I've managed to make some loaves of mouth puckering sourness fermenting entirely at around 50F.



To be honest, though, I don't think sourdough breads should really have that one dimensional up-front sourness like so many supermarket brands do. A mild sourness and greater complexity of flavor is more what I'm after.

[bakerboy]

jgarner, that is a really nice loaf, especially for doing it in a home oven. i wouldn't get too carried away and start making big changes in your method when your clearly on the right track. I too give my dough a shaped cold overnight rise. This develops a mild sour (i hate to use that word because its not REALLY sour) and really helps develop the flavor of the grain....but this is how my customers like it. i've found that when they get that REAL sour on their tongues, they don't like it. i found this out because i started cold overnighting my starter for use in the next days dough which would in turn be bulk risen (at room temp.) and given a cold overnight shaped rise. This made my dough noticably more sour without me having to change the recipe. I liked it, but it just wasn't what my peoples wanted.
ps. go ahead and stuff that loaf with sausage and peppers, cmon, go ahead.

[polack]

I knew the Jackal would get into this thread, it's his passion and does very well with it. I used his advice and am reaping the rewards every time I bake bread. I too wait about 20 minutes, after the first knead, before I put the salt to it. When I tried my first loaf I was adding not only my starter, but a tsp of dry yeast and that definitely kept the sour flavor out.
Polack

[SethG]

1. Contrary to some opinions, I think it is a bad idea to let the starter "age and become more sour" before adding it to the dough.  The reason for this is quite simple: by the time a starter is becoming noticably sour it is already well bast peak growth conditions and the population of microorganisms is actually beginning to die down.  When you mix the starter together with the dough, you want the yeast/lacrobacillus population as large and healthy as possible so it can do its thing....

I guess the key to Sam's statement above is his use of the term "noticably sour." I don't know how long you have to wait for the starter to become noticably sour-- it might be long enough to do damage to your starter's ability to cause bread to rise. I don't aim for sourness myself. I sometimes leave my refreshed starter in the fridge for three days or more before I use it and I think it adds a bit more sourness (which is why I mentioned it), but not a ton.

I would agree that if you wait to use your refreshed starter and either leave it out overnight or put it in the fridge, it may be past its peak when you use it. But it will still work just fine, within reasonable limits. In her original post, jgarner53 says her dough doubles in two to three hours-- this is evidence of a very active starter indeed. Her bread will still rise just fine if she waits a bit longer to use the starter.

Edited by SethG, 24 February 2005 - 11:58 AM.

[jgarner53]

OK, based on your responses, this is what I will try this week. The loaf will be edible regardless, so it's an experiment I'm happy to make.

I will refresh my starter at a warmer than room temp (this for me means in the oven with the pilot light on and door open) except for the final which will go into the reefer.

I'm not sure I really need to autolyse at this point because my dough really is a happy thing. Fred (that's my starter's name) is a busy little yeast colony. But if the cool refresh doesn't make my dough more sour (I'm not really after mouth-puckeringly sour, just a noticeable twang), then I will go from there.

Perhaps the angle of my slash is the problem. I tend to go at it closer to 90º.

I know my bread is done (to address whoever thought it looked underdone) because if I insert an instant-read, it reads at least at 200ºF (the bottom also passes the thump test). This week's loaf is considerably less pale on top. (I have also been fiddling around with tile arrangements in my oven to try to optimize the thermal mass)

I'm actually quite happy with the crumb. This photo is of this week's loaf, which has about 15% whole wheat flour in it (I ran short on AP) The shape is a bit funky because a small spot stuck to my peel where I hadn't put enough semolina. Though I may very well add more water to open the crumb out a bit. (This loaf is also, what, now, several days old?)



Really, I see this as an ongoing experiment. I love the idea that the flavor of the bread can vary so much based on how the starter is treated, the temperature of the dough/fermentation, etc. Thanks for all the suggestions.

[jackal10]

That is a good looking loaf, so whatever you are doing, it is the right thing!
I'd let the sponge warm up and become active before making the dough, if you refrigerate it.
You might get a bit more oven spring, and hence wider "gringe" (grins or slash marks) and bigger volume by proofing a little less. Personally I bake straight from the fridge.

[mktye]

First off, I must confess that I'm a lazy, rule-breaking sourdough baker, but this seems to work for me... I pull my starter (kept at 100% hydration) from the refrigerator (I typically bake with it once a week, but occassionally two or three weeks with have gone by), make a sponge, then the dough, one rise, shape and final rise.

In the winter, the sponge is 6-8 hours at room temp (~76 degrees), first rise also at room temp and then the shaped rise overnight at cool room temp (~60). According to my SF bay-area born husband, the resulting loaves taste like "real" sourdough. Nice and tangy. Fantastic crumb and crust.

In the summer, the house is simply too warm for an overnight final rise. Instead, the sponge is overnight in the refrigerator, with the first rise and shaped rise at room temp (~78 degrees). It results in a medium sour bread. (I just got a second refrigerator, so this summer I'll probably experiment a bit with refrigerated overnight shaped rises.)

Whether it is the warmer sponge or the cooler. longer shaped rise or both, I have yet to determine. An experiment for when I have more time...

Also, if you don't already have it, you might want to get a copy of Jeffrey Hamelman's "Bread, A Baker's Book of Techniques and Recipes". It has a great section (with photos!) on slashing technique and also contains good sourdough information. It was discussed in this thread.

[RonC]

I've recently returned (after many years) to trying my hand at baking sourdough bread. My first two attempts resulted in flavorable, nice textured loaves that were too moist to form!! The supplier of the starter suggested that I kneed the dough for only 5 minutes - rather than the 10 minutes at low speed on my KitchenAid I'd been doing (and are in her instructions. I just tried that. At 4.5 minutes, it looked great - pulling away from the sides of the bowl. At 5 minutes, it broke down and seems too moist, but I'll go ahead and bake it.

Ideas? Suggestions?

Oh, my mixture is 2 cups of starter, 2 cups of bread flour and 2 tsp of salt.

Thanks much,

Sidecar Ron

[jackal10]

The acid in the sourdough can break down the gluten.
Actually you don't need to knead at all, just mix to an even consistency, and then fold sides to middle, and top to bottom line you are making flaky pastry every hour for four hours during the bulk ferementation phase.

The wetter the dough the bigger the holes, but you will need to support the dough during rising with a banneton. I usually make mine around 72% hydration.

See the eGCI SOurdough Unit http://forums.egulle...showtopic=27634

[ellencho]

I had a similar problem myself. I solved it by not allowing my loaves to overproof and by doing the envelope folding method every hour during the fermentation.

[RonC]

Thank you folks. I'll either try NO or VERY little kneeding next time.

Sidecar Ron

[chiantiglace]

all your trying to do is make sour dough starter into bread?

Edited by chiantiglace, 06 June 2005 - 07:40 AM.

[RonC]

Well ... starter plus bread flour plus salt.

Sidecar Ron

all your trying to do is make sour dough starter into bread?

[devlin]

I've been following the bread threads with particular interest, and have found the sourdough thread and the turning thread very helpful, especially Jackal's ten step sourdough lesson.

I used that process over the past couple of days to practice producing large batches (this one was 20 loaves) of bread in my wood-fired, Alan Scott oven. Because I was focussing on the process itself, using a big plastic bin to mix and turn the dough, I wasn't too worried about the form the bread would take, although that's part of own learning process right now as well.

What I ended up doing was shaping them ala Peter Reinhart's "ancient bread," the simple stretched sort of bread stick, and also a few baguettes. The unshaped bread stick was beautiful, the interior the most gorgeous I've produced yet (the dough was as wet as Reinhart's), that sort of web or pane-like texture, large and small holes very consistently throughout the loaves. I was frankly a little stunned by how beautiful they were, even though I've done these before. I'm not sure whether it was the slightly different formula or the bulk fermentation/turning by hand process. It's the first time I've not used an electric mixer, doing the entire thing by hand. I was nervous at the start, but as the day progressed, and with each subsequent turn, I was more than heartened, and even excited by the transformation of the dough as I went along. I'm totally sold on the process. For the past year, my husband and I have had conversations about what seemed like the inevitable purchase of a large mixer, and I've been putting it off. Right now, or anyway for the time being, it seems entirely superfluous.

But here's the question. The loaves I shaped, the traditionally-shaped baguette loaves, didn't have quite the gorgeous interior of the simple bread stick form, even though they were both the same basic shape and size. Any suggestions as to why that might be? Or is that normal? Should I do something differently in shaping or proofing to get the same stunning exterior as the bread sticks?

I'm hoping I haven't hijacked this thread, but I'm thinking any of the answers/discussion might also benefit Ron as well. And I'm wondering whether Ron might find the notion of handmixing and the notes over on the turning thread beneficial as well.

[RonC]

Friendly hijacking is fine. I figure we're all here to learn -- or to share our knowledge.

Sidecar Ron

I've been following the bread threads with particular interest, and have found the sourdough thread and the turning thread very helpful, especially Jackal's ten step sourdough lesson.

I used that process over the past couple of days to practice producing large batches (this one was 20 loaves) of bread in my wood-fired, Alan Scott oven. Because I was focussing on the process itself, using a big plastic bin to mix and turn the dough, I wasn't too worried about the form the bread would take, although that's part of own learning process right now as well.

What I ended up doing was shaping them ala Peter Reinhart's "ancient bread," the simple stretched sort of bread stick, and also a few baguettes. The unshaped bread stick was beautiful, the interior the most gorgeous I've produced yet (the dough was as wet as Reinhart's), that sort of web or pane-like texture, large and small holes very consistently throughout the loaves. I was frankly a little stunned by how beautiful they were, even though I've done these before. I'm not sure whether it was the slightly different formula or the bulk fermentation/turning by hand process. It's the first time I've not used an electric mixer, doing the entire thing by hand. I was nervous at the start, but as the day progressed, and with each subsequent turn, I was more than heartened, and even excited by the transformation of the dough as I went along. I'm totally sold on the process. For the past year, my husband and I have had conversations about what seemed like the inevitable purchase of a large mixer, and I've been putting it off.  Right now, or anyway for the time being, it seems entirely superfluous.

But here's the question. The loaves I shaped, the traditionally-shaped baguette loaves, didn't have quite the gorgeous interior of the simple bread stick form, even though they were both the same basic shape and size. Any suggestions as to why that might be? Or is that normal? Should I do something differently in shaping or proofing to get the same stunning exterior as the bread sticks?

I'm hoping I haven't hijacked this thread, but I'm thinking any of the answers/discussion might also benefit Ron as well. And I'm wondering whether Ron might find the notion of handmixing and the notes over on the turning thread beneficial as well.

[devlin]

Friendly hijacking is fine. I figure we're all here to learn -- or to share our knowledge.

Sidecar Ron

Thanks Ron, I was hoping you'd thing so. It's all part of the whole bread thing. I love this place. It's helped me immeasurably.

I wanted to note too that when I say I shaped baguettes, I did it in the traditional way, patting out the dough and then folding and sealing, three times. Maybe that's the problem?

[RonC]

Devlin, I really think the major issue is over kneeding. I've heard before about the problem of breaking down the glutin. As I mentioned was my intent, I went ahead and baked the break. Actually, it was pretty good. Gonna maybe kick up the sour dough taste on my next try.
Sidecar Ron

[doronin]

King Arthur already include this and diastatic malt in their bread flour.

Hi All

I used to make my bread with organic whole grain flours, which, by obvious reasons, do not contain the additives, including diastatic malt and ascorbic acid. While can I guess where I can get the latest , I'm in full darkness in regards to the diastatic malt sources. I live outside of North America, so King Arthur is not available to me. DIY method is not for me right now, as with 3 month old baby I have to restrict mysef from most of my DIY projects. I feel that my bread is underfermented, so I really want to try it.
Does anyone know where possibly can I find it? Otherwise, is there any other product that contain the right enzymes, and could replace the malt in that respect?

Thanks!!
Dmitry.

[beccaboo]

King Arthur already include this and diastatic malt in their bread flour.

I'm in full darkness in regards to the diastatic malt sources. I live outside of North America, so King Arthur is not available to me.
Does anyone know where possibly can I find it? Otherwise, is there any other product that contain the right enzymes, and could replace the malt in that respect?

I've heard that you can get it in shops with beer-making supplies, though you have to be careful to not get the stuff that's mixed with hops. Do you have home-brew shops in Tel Aviv?

[jackal10]

Most home-brew shops and healthfood stores carry diastic malt.
You don't really need it, expecially if you are using whole flours - just leave the dough for an half hour or so before adding the salt (salt blocks the enzyme). Rye flour also has high levels so adding 10% rye flour may help.

Ascorbic acid is Vitamin C, which most chemists/drug stores/health food shops will carry. Again, not really needed unless your flour is very fresh. It inhibits by oxidising an enzyme that attackes the gluten.

To slash the bread you need a very thin knife, like a razor blade. Bakers use a lame or gringnette (lame means blade, grigne means snile and is what the slashes cause). Typical brands are Matfer and Scaritech (www.scaritech.com) . Matfer are distributed in the US (do a web seach for Matfer Lame), but for Scaritech you will need to go to a professional baking supply of direct from the manufacturer.
I prefer the green Scartech professional ones.

The technique is to cut at about 45 degrees into the bread, not straight down,. You are cutting a flap, not a slit. Do it fast in one motion, don't go back and fuss it.

Edited by jackal10, 11 August 2005 - 08:29 AM.

[takomabaker]

I don't mean to sound ignorant, but could someone be so kind as to go into more detail about the process of "turning" or "folding" during the initial rise?

Is this similar to making single and double folds when making puff pastry?

Wouldn't that deflate the dough each time? Or does that not matter because it is the initial rise?

It sounds like a useful method, but I think I need more guidance...

Thanks so much!

[jackal10]

Exactly the same as making puff pastry. A double turn (sides to middle and top to bottom) about four times though initial bulk fermentation phase. Don't prees down too hard.
It doesn't deflate the dough a lot, since the gas cells are not big at this stage

[takomabaker]

Cool. Thanks.

Exactly the same as making puff pastry. A double turn  (sides to middle and top to bottom) about four times though initial bulk fermentation phase. Don't prees down too hard.
It doesn't deflate the dough a lot, since the gas cells are not big at this stage