455 replies to this topic

[Nathan]

although people usually get wine pairings...I'm told that even the cocktail prices include service with each drink.

(someone please correct this if I'm wrong.)

[ulterior epicure]

although people usually get wine pairings...I'm told that even the cocktail prices include service with each drink.

(someone please correct this if I'm wrong.)

Oh, that very well may be. I was actually uncertain about "a la carte" drinks.

If this is so, then one could conceivably walk out of per se having never to do much math.

[Fat Guy]

what percentage of that $250 actually goes to service salaries is unknown to customers

When it was implemented, it was announced as a 20% service charge.

[Nathan]

so...in theory, it's $208.25 for food and the rest is service.

[Fat Guy]

Right. It's also worth noting that, with a service charge, you pay sales tax on the service charge. So you're paying sales tax on the whole $250, as opposed to $208.25 plus a sales-tax-free tip.

[oakapple]

although people usually get wine pairings...I'm told that even the cocktail prices include service with each drink.

(someone please correct this if I'm wrong.)

That's right: wine pairings, wines by the glas, wines by the bottle, cocktails, bottled water....everything includes service at an implied 20% rate. You could tip more if you want, but as I recall from my last visit, there wasn't even a tip line when the credit card voucher was presented for signature.

[kretch]

although people usually get wine pairings...I'm told that even the cocktail prices include service with each drink.

(someone please correct this if I'm wrong.)

That's right: wine pairings, wines by the glas, wines by the bottle, cocktails, bottled water....everything includes service at an implied 20% rate. You could tip more if you want, but as I recall from my last visit, there wasn't even a tip line when the credit card voucher was presented for signature.

6/16/07 there was a tip line marked "additional gratuity" or something similar.

[riboflavinjoe]

After an exciting first day in NYC, we took a quick trip back to the hotel to get ready for our supper, where my new wife changed into a simple and beautiful mauve dress, while I ironed my shirt and got into my suit and tie, and we went for a walk up Broadway past the David Letterman Show studio to Columbus Circle and into the Time Warner Centre, fourth floor, destination: Per Se restaurant.

I remember my wife telling me in our first few encounters that she would never eat brains unless Thomas Keller cooked it for her. Now, we didn’t eat brains that night, but I remember when she told me that a few years ago that here was a woman who had the same interests as me, and maybe there was a potential for something! Well, now we found ourselves at the door of a restaurant we had both dreamed of eating at since we first heard of it, and we were welcomed into their restaurant. The waiter asked us if we wanted something to drink, and I said, “Well, we just got married 27 hours ago, so champagne is in order!” They congratulated us on our wedding, and brought us over our first glass of champagne on that trip.

When they arrived with the menu, they had printed off a special copy for us that included the words “congratulations” at the top. Clearly these people go to great lengths to give the best possible service they can give. We were impressed with their attention to all the details. I guess once we told them we were newly weds, they treated us as VIPs, because the wine and the food just didn’t stop coming. We ordered the chef’s tasting menus and they not only gave us all 9 or 10 courses that were written on menu, but they sent us a number of extra items that were heavenly. A few classics that I had only read about in the French Laundry cookbook, like the Oyster and Pearls, the Salmon Tartare on sesame tuile, and the Truffled Egg with potato-chive chip. We ate foie gras, mine torchon, hers seared. With my torchon of foie gras came a selection of 10 salts from around the world and a warm toasted brioche. They replaced it with a new piece after two minutes to ensure my brioche was still warm while I ate my foie gras. They served us a lovely Kabinett Riesling and then followed up with a Hestan Chardonnay from California that accompanied our Chatham Cod with corn, razor clams and thyme, and the butter poached lobster with fennel chip and noilly prat sauce. The lobster was very good, and everything was appropriately seasoned. Next up, my wife was getting a little overwhelmed with wine, so I had a glass of Pauillac that went with our seared Peking duck with figs and turnips, and the Wagyu beef with matsutakes, bordelaise, crispy marrow, and pommes parisiennes rissoles, while my wife ate her lamb. At this point in the evening, the moon was starting to come up over Central Park, and our waiter came by to point it out to us, saying “we had this specially ordered for you on your special day”, and gave us a good laugh. It was just a little detail that made us feel that much more special. A beautiful Gewurztraminer was with us for our cheese and sorbet, and when it came time for dessert, they brought us not only those that we had ordered, but also the famous “coffee and doughnuts”: semifreddo and housemade fresh doughnuts, which was THEN! followed by a few more complimentary desserts of mini crème brulee and a strawberry pot de crème and short bread cookies and finally mignardises: chocolate truffles and chocolates and chocolate covered almonds and caramels and pistachio nougatines. With our bill (which is most likely the most expensive meal we will ever have in our lives!) came a little bag of perfect macaroons, which we enjoyed the next morning. A quick tour of the kitchen was great, the kitchen was beautifully laid out, and all the cooks in the back looked very busy, so we didn’t want to get in their way, so we left as quickly as we came in. Very clean, very efficient, very impressive.

We left full as we had ever been in our lives, and blissfully wandered back down Broadway to settle in for another solid night’s sleep.

Edit: Photos

Edited by riboflavinjoe, 06 September 2007 - 07:25 PM.

[tupac17616]

After an exciting first day in NYC, we took a quick trip back to the hotel to get ready for our supper, where my new wife changed into a simple and beautiful mauve dress, while I ironed my shirt and got into my suit and tie, and we went for a walk up Broadway past the David Letterman Show studio to Columbus Circle and into the Time Warner Centre, fourth floor, destination: Per Se restaurant. 

I remember my wife telling me in our first few encounters that she would never eat brains unless Thomas Keller cooked it for her.  Now, we didn’t eat brains that night, but I remember when she told me that a few years ago that here was a woman who had the same interests as me, and maybe there was a potential for something!  Well, now we found ourselves at the door of a restaurant we had both dreamed of eating at since we first heard of it, and we were welcomed into their restaurant.  The waiter asked us if we wanted something to drink, and I said, “Well, we just got married 27 hours ago, so champagne is in order!”  They congratulated us on our wedding, and brought us over our first glass of champagne on that trip. 

When they arrived with the menu, they had printed off a special copy for us that included the words “congratulations” at the top.  Clearly these people go to great lengths to give the best possible service they can give.  We were impressed with their attention to all the details.  I guess once we told them we were newly weds, they treated us as VIPs, because the wine and the food just didn’t stop coming.  We ordered the chef’s tasting menus and they not only gave us all 9 or 10 courses that were written on menu, but they sent us a number of extra items that were heavenly.  A few classics that I had only read about in the French Laundry cookbook, like the Oyster and Pearls, the Salmon Tartare on sesame tuile, and the Truffled Egg with potato-chive chip.  We ate foie gras, mine torchon, hers seared.  With my torchon of foie gras came a selection of 10 salts from around the world and a warm toasted brioche.  They replaced it with a new piece after two minutes to ensure my brioche was still warm while I ate my foie gras.  They served us a lovely Kabinett Riesling and then followed up with a Hestan Chardonnay from California that accompanied our Chatham Cod with corn, razor clams and thyme, and the butter poached lobster with fennel chip and noilly prat sauce.  The lobster was very good, and everything was appropriately seasoned.  Next up, my wife was getting a little overwhelmed with wine, so I had a glass of Pauillac that went with our seared Peking duck with figs and turnips, and the Wagyu beef with matsutakes, bordelaise, crispy marrow, and pommes parisiennes rissoles, while my wife ate her lamb.  At this point in the evening, the moon was starting to come up over Central Park, and our waiter came by to point it out to us, saying “we had this specially ordered for you on your special day”, and gave us a good laugh.  It was just a little detail that made us feel that much more special.  A beautiful Gewurztraminer was with us for our cheese and sorbet, and when it came time for dessert, they brought us not only those that we had ordered, but also the famous “coffee and doughnuts”: semifreddo and housemade fresh doughnuts, which was THEN! followed by a few more complimentary desserts of mini crème brulee and a strawberry pot de crème and short bread cookies and finally mignardises: chocolate truffles and chocolates and chocolate covered almonds and caramels and pistachio nougatines.  With our bill (which is most likely the most expensive meal we will ever have in our lives!) came a little bag of perfect macaroons, which we enjoyed the next morning.  A quick tour of the kitchen was great, the kitchen was beautifully laid out, and all the cooks in the back looked very busy, so we didn’t want to get in their way, so we left as quickly as we came in.  Very clean, very efficient, very impressive.

We left full as we had ever been in our lives, and blissfully wandered back down Broadway to settle in for another solid night’s sleep.

Edit: Photos

Congratulations to you both. Sounds like you enjoyed a wonderful meal. And the foie gras torchon, in particular, is beautiful.

[Shmily]

After an exciting first day in NYC, we took a quick trip back to the hotel to get ready for our supper, where my new wife changed into a simple and beautiful mauve dress, while I ironed my shirt and got into my suit and tie, and we went for a walk up Broadway past the David Letterman Show studio to Columbus Circle and into the Time Warner Centre, fourth floor, destination: Per Se restaurant. 

I remember my wife telling me in our first few encounters that she would never eat brains unless Thomas Keller cooked it for her.  Now, we didn’t eat brains that night, but I remember when she told me that a few years ago that here was a woman who had the same interests as me, and maybe there was a potential for something!  Well, now we found ourselves at the door of a restaurant we had both dreamed of eating at since we first heard of it, and we were welcomed into their restaurant.  The waiter asked us if we wanted something to drink, and I said, “Well, we just got married 27 hours ago, so champagne is in order!”  They congratulated us on our wedding, and brought us over our first glass of champagne on that trip. 

When they arrived with the menu, they had printed off a special copy for us that included the words “congratulations” at the top.  Clearly these people go to great lengths to give the best possible service they can give.  We were impressed with their attention to all the details.  I guess once we told them we were newly weds, they treated us as VIPs, because the wine and the food just didn’t stop coming.  We ordered the chef’s tasting menus and they not only gave us all 9 or 10 courses that were written on menu, but they sent us a number of extra items that were heavenly.  A few classics that I had only read about in the French Laundry cookbook, like the Oyster and Pearls, the Salmon Tartare on sesame tuile, and the Truffled Egg with potato-chive chip.  We ate foie gras, mine torchon, hers seared.  With my torchon of foie gras came a selection of 10 salts from around the world and a warm toasted brioche.  They replaced it with a new piece after two minutes to ensure my brioche was still warm while I ate my foie gras.  They served us a lovely Kabinett Riesling and then followed up with a Hestan Chardonnay from California that accompanied our Chatham Cod with corn, razor clams and thyme, and the butter poached lobster with fennel chip and noilly prat sauce.  The lobster was very good, and everything was appropriately seasoned.  Next up, my wife was getting a little overwhelmed with wine, so I had a glass of Pauillac that went with our seared Peking duck with figs and turnips, and the Wagyu beef with matsutakes, bordelaise, crispy marrow, and pommes parisiennes rissoles, while my wife ate her lamb.  At this point in the evening, the moon was starting to come up over Central Park, and our waiter came by to point it out to us, saying “we had this specially ordered for you on your special day”, and gave us a good laugh.  It was just a little detail that made us feel that much more special.  A beautiful Gewurztraminer was with us for our cheese and sorbet, and when it came time for dessert, they brought us not only those that we had ordered, but also the famous “coffee and doughnuts”: semifreddo and housemade fresh doughnuts, which was THEN! followed by a few more complimentary desserts of mini crème brulee and a strawberry pot de crème and short bread cookies and finally mignardises: chocolate truffles and chocolates and chocolate covered almonds and caramels and pistachio nougatines.  With our bill (which is most likely the most expensive meal we will ever have in our lives!) came a little bag of perfect macaroons, which we enjoyed the next morning.  A quick tour of the kitchen was great, the kitchen was beautifully laid out, and all the cooks in the back looked very busy, so we didn’t want to get in their way, so we left as quickly as we came in.  Very clean, very efficient, very impressive.

We left full as we had ever been in our lives, and blissfully wandered back down Broadway to settle in for another solid night’s sleep.

Edit: Photos

May I share that if you return, you will be treated the same ...it is just a joy...oour last trip there (our 3rd) was also right after our marriage...we could not think of a more special place to eat...Glad it was so wonderful...

[fendi_pilot]

After holding out and not having eaten at Per Se yet - My question is this : I'm just wondering if anyone has been effected negatively by other diners at Per Se. One of my biggest fears has to be laying down a large amount of cash and not enjoying myself.

While I love to eat out, my love of food and fear of letdown often keeps me in my own kitchen where buying great ingredients and learning to perfect dishes is both easier on my pocketbook and lots of fun.

I have a friend who works in Hedge funds and when I learned that he had been to both Per Se and Masa I was a little shocked. Naively, I think I assumed that temples of gastronomy and a-hole banker types would never marry well. Wrong, but really was I so wrong to keep those seperate ? He hated the experience but this is because he hates his co-workers. I'm currently in the middle of reading the Phoebe Damrosch book Service Included which is basically a memoir of her time at Per Se. In her recounting, she illustrates such nightmarish customer 'requests' that I can't imagine even the nicest of old grandmothers not wanting to pull a complete Marco Pierre White. Soup Nazi time - Your meal is in fact over with and you can leave, right away. (the only one I remember at the moment being - no 'cute' animals, although there were far worse)

Who are these blasphemers that tie up the reservation line ? And does Thomas Keller even care (or can he afford to) ? More importantly, if I make the call, get the res, will they have any chance of effecting me ?

Thanks to all.

Edited by fendi_pilot, 30 October 2007 - 01:36 PM.

[ulterior epicure]

After holding out and not having eaten at Per Se yet - My question is this : I'm just wondering if anyone has been effected negatively by other diners at Per Se.  One of my biggest fears has to be laying down a large amount of cash and not enjoying myself. 

While I love to eat out, my love of food and fear of letdown often keeps me in my own kitchen where buying great ingredients and learning to perfect dishes is both easier on my pocketbook and lots of fun. 

I have a friend who works in Hedge funds and when I learned that he had been to both Per Se and Masa I was a little shocked.  Naively, I think I assumed that temples of gastronomy and a-hole banker types would never marry well. Wrong, but really was I so wrong to keep those seperate ? He hated the experience but this is because he hates his co-workers.    I'm currently in the middle of reading the Phoebe Damrosch book Service Included which is basically a memoir of her time at Per Se.  In her recounting, she illustrates such nightmarish customer 'requests'  that I can't imagine even the nicest of old grandmothers not wanting to pull a complete Marco Pierre White.  Soup Nazi time - Your meal is in fact over with and you can leave, right away.  (the only one I remember at the moment being - no 'cute' animals, although there were far worse)

Who are these blasphemers that tie up the reservation line ? And does Thomas Keller even care (or can he afford to) ?  More importantly, if I make the call, get the res, will they have any chance of effecting me ? 

Thanks to all.

You bring up an interesting point, although I'm not exactly sure what kind of "negative" influence you are referring to.

If it's matter of having to (over)hear potentially obnoxious diners, I doubt that would be a problem at per se. The tables are so generously separated that I barely noticed any other party in the room during my visit.

On the other hand, if it's a matter of attention, I will say that I experienced no problems at per se (on my one visit). However, a party of 8 at The French Laundry that ordered all the add-ons and appeared to be buying out the wine cellar did seem to suck all the attention away from my (and possibly other) table. Our service there was truly lousy. I need to return to re-evaluate.

[oakapple]

After holding out and not having eaten at Per Se yet - My question is this : I'm just wondering if anyone has been effected negatively by other diners at Per Se.  One of my biggest fears has to be laying down a large amount of cash and not enjoying myself.

No one can guarantee you won't have a let-down at Per Se. The fact is, when you spend upwards of $450–500 per head (that's pretty close to the likely price including tax and alcohol), there's not much margin for error.

That said, the percentage of disappointed diners, in relation to the total number of reviews posted, is amazingly low. There's no restaurant beloved by everybody, but Per Se has an awfully high batting average. I've been there three times. When I and my wallet are ready, I'll go a fourth. Bear in mind that as Per Se serves a long tasting menu, you're not likely to be sent into orbit by every single dish, but the overall quality level is impressive.

While I love to eat out, my love of food and fear of letdown often keeps me in my own kitchen where buying great ingredients and learning to perfect dishes is both easier on my pocketbook and lots of fun.

If you expect perfection everywhere, it's an awfully high burden for the restaurants to bear.

Who are these blasphemers that tie up the reservation line ? And does Thomas Keller even care (or can he afford to)?

Among luxury restaurants, Per Se has very close to the best, if not the best service in town. If Thomas Keller doesn't care, his staff do a remarkable job of concealing the fact.

[docsconz]

I will echo, U.E. on Per Se. While nothing is impossible, the odds of that happening at Per Se are much, much less than almost all other restaurants because of its size and the table spacing.

[Nathan]

gosh, I hear ya. I rarely get to expense account dinners and I'm not made of money so I seriously contemplate whether it's worth it when I go above the $100 a person or so range...(i.e. if I can eat at Babbo four times for the price of one meal at Per Se....or twice at JG...that's an awfully high bar for Per Se to pass)...on the other hand, so far, when I've thrown caution to the wind, it's been rewarded (haven't been to Per Se though). but yeah, the risk is significant. so could be the reward.
only you can know the right calculus for you.

but yeah, sometimes I wonder where some people are coming from (a conversation a couple weeks ago...me: "well, I haven't been to San Domenico"; him: "well you simply can't purport to rank the best Italian restaurants in NY until you've been there".....my thought process: seriously, I don't have an unlimited budget. I'm not going to spend $300 on a meal at a place which most people I trust say sucks...except for some stodgy elderly types who probably get VIP'd anyway)....with that said, almost everyone seems to really enjoy Per Se...it's probably worth the risk.

[fendi_pilot]

Thanks everyone. I do think that I'll have to go soon. My main concern was just being distracted from the food by other outside factors (service and annoying people) but it's good to know the tables are well spaced.

As for perfection, I'm not sure what it in fact even is, although we often find ourselves in pursuit of it - but I do love to be wowed by food, whether through ingenious flavors combinations of a mastery of simplicity. Keller's food mostly looks very impressive but there are so many other options in New York it's difficult to committ sometimes for me to the higher priced options. But Per Se seems too tempting not to at least go once.

Also, although everyone seems to by default include alcohol into the price, I'm thinking of really not indulging in alcohol when I go. My other half isn't much of a drinker and, along with the price consideration, I want to be completely into the food. While I often enjoy drinking at restaurants with other people, it's because the occasion has become a more social one and here I think I want to not distracted by the alcohol. As much as I enjoy food and wine, I often find I enjoy them better separately. However, I haven't ever really done a tasting menu over 5 or 6 courses and over the course of a longer tasting menu I might be more tempted to have a glass or two.

[Mayur]

I think the reason for "alcohol being included in the default price" is that many folk (including myself) consider wine a default part of the dining experience, especially at this sort of level with this cuisine. While I might go to Masa and drink only tea (it's done in some Japanese culinary contexts), I would never go to a restaurant that is essentially doing French haute cuisine with some "American" touches and fail to order wine. Not to say that teetotaling with this food is "badwrongfun," but rather that I think the "default" for this sort of cuisine tends to be with wine(s) rather than without.

As to whether Per Se is "worth it": My dislike of the Columbus Circle mall setting probably colors my experience somewhat, but my preference would be to have two meals at JG, or a meal at JG and one at the Modern. The service is utterly stellar, but the food is not my favorite style, since I find Keller's cuisine goes a little too far in the direction of refinement at the expense of pure flavor. Do you get what you pay for? Sure. Is it necessarily going to be worth it even for someone with $450 to burn? No.

[BryanZ]

The service is utterly stellar, but the food is not my favorite style, since I find Keller's cuisine goes a little too far in the direction of refinement at the expense of pure flavor. Do you get what you pay for? Sure. Is it necessarily going to be worth it even for someone with $450 to burn? No.

That is so well said.

[ulterior epicure]

The service is utterly stellar, but the food is not my favorite style, since I find Keller's cuisine goes a little too far in the direction of refinement at the expense of pure flavor. Do you get what you pay for? Sure. Is it necessarily going to be worth it even for someone with $450 to burn? No.

That is so well said.

Echo.

[oakapple]

As to whether Per Se is "worth it": My dislike of the Columbus Circle mall setting probably colors my experience somewhat....

I find this a little difficult to comprehend. You can go in a side entrance, take an elevator, and walk into Per Se. Your exposure to the "mall" lasts a grand total of about 4 minutes; the meal, about 4 hours.

[ulterior epicure]

As to whether Per Se is "worth it": My dislike of the Columbus Circle mall setting probably colors my experience somewhat....

I find this a little difficult to comprehend. You can go in a side entrance, take an elevator, and walk into Per Se. Your exposure to the "mall" lasts a grand total of about 4 minutes; the meal, about 4 hours.

Exactly.

And, and don't forget the shoppers gawking at the front trellis, the unworldly faux garden and the blue doors - one musn't forget those blue doors that aren't real either...

... the restaurant is definitely in a mall... no 2 ways about it. I'll agree that once your inside, the mall effect disappears - and yes, that is the majority of your "per se experience." However, for the mall-averse, I can easily see how the mall setting taints the overal feel - from the first impression to the very last when you "walk" out those faux doors...

Edited by ulterior epicure, 31 October 2007 - 12:27 PM.

[oakapple]

And, and don't forget the shoppers gawking at the front trellis, the unworldly faux garden and the blue doors - one musn't forget those blue doors that aren't real either... 

Most of the time, I've seen no shoppers "gawking" there, though it probably happens sometimes—as it would if Per Se were in a hotel or any other public building. The blue doors have nothing to do with it being in a mall. No one said, "Hmmm...this is in a mall, so we need blue doors that don't open." If the garden really bothers you that much, then we're really speaking a different language.

... the restaurant is definitely in a mall... no 2 ways about it.

If you took a visitor in the back way and didn't tell them otherwise, they wouldn't really be aware they're in a mall (in the usual sense of the word). Now, Café Gray and Landmarc are something different: you cannot reach them without being very aware that it's an upscale shopping mall—not that that should deter any sensible person.

I'll agree that once your inside, the mall effect disappears - and yes, that is the majority of your "per se experience."

How about 99.99%?

However, for the mall-averse, I can easily see how the mall setting taints the overal feel - from the first impression to the very last when you "walk" out those faux doors...

If that really taints an experience that someone would otherwise have enjoyed, it says more about the person than the restaurant. Now, if you just don't like Per Se, then obviously the location provides one more excuse to avoid it.

Edited by oakapple, 31 October 2007 - 01:07 PM.

[Nathan]

as a mall it's actually quite schizophrenic...j.crew and tourneau?

[Mayur]

If that really taints an experience that someone would otherwise have enjoyed, it says more about the person than the restaurant. Now, if you just don't like Per Se, then obviously the location provides one more excuse to avoid it.

This sounds an awful lot like an ad hominem argument to me.

There is a reasonable amount of architectural and design studies writing out there to support the idea that 4 minutes is plenty of time to garner an impression from a landscape, urban exterior, interior, or otherwise.

Edited by Mayur, 31 October 2007 - 01:59 PM.

[fendi_pilot]

If that really taints an experience that someone would otherwise have enjoyed, it says more about the person than the restaurant. Now, if you just don't like Per Se, then obviously the location provides one more excuse to avoid it.

This sounds an awful lot like an ad hominem argument to me.

There is a reasonable amount of architectural and design studies writing out there to support the idea that 4 minutes is plenty of time to garner an impression from a landscape, urban exterior, interior, or otherwise.

I have to agree with Oakapple. Obviously barring extremes, I believe that while, say visiting a amazing restaurant by going down a rabbit hole in Central Park might benefit my overall experience vs. having to acknowledge that an amazing restaurant is in an upscale mall will not increase my overall experience but that unless I'm really a whiny over-sensitive freak that hey I live in New York for christ's sake and I can deal (and have had to with far worse).

Now if you had to get spankings from nude dwarves who were all wearing a mask of your mother on your way in the door, that might be a little more averse (and I'd probably only go once or twice if the food was really great the first time).

[docsconz]

This discussion has taken an interesting twist. Personally, the location in that mall does not bother me. On the other hand, it does not enhance the experience either. The view from the restaurant does, though. That is the exact opposite of TFL, where the setting is marvelous, but the view from most of the restaurant essentially non-existent.

[oakapple]

If that really taints an experience that someone would otherwise have enjoyed, it says more about the person than the restaurant. Now, if you just don't like Per Se, then obviously the location provides one more excuse to avoid it.

This sounds an awful lot like an ad hominem argument to me.

It is not meant to be. I am merely suggesting that it would be irrational—and should not be regarded as credible—if anyone really said that the mall setting affected their enjoyment of Per Se to any significant degree.

What you actually said, was that "the food is not my favorite style, since I find Keller's cuisine goes a little too far in the direction of refinement at the expense of pure flavor." Those are perfectly credible reasons. But if your feelings would have been different by moving Per Se to a different location, I will stand by the statement that it is not credible. (Obviously you have every right to say it, this being a free country & all....)

There is a reasonable amount of architectural and design studies writing out there to support the idea that 4 minutes is plenty of time to garner an impression from a landscape, urban exterior, interior, or otherwise.

Yeah, but the 4 minutes begin when you reach the restaurant. No one says, "I don't like Le Bernardin because of the block that it is on," even though it is a rather dull block, and you need to walk on that block for at least 4 minutes to get to the restaurant.

Well, Per Se's "block" is inside a building, and that building happens to contain a shopping mall, but they've given you a route that, if you choose to use it, bypasses almost all of the commercial activity in that mall. If anyone says that this is a significant (more than 0.1%) drawback of an experience they'd otherwise have enjoyed, I'm sorry, but I don't consider that to be credible.

[ulterior epicure]

Well, Per Se's "block" is inside a building, and that building happens to contain a shopping mall, but they've given you a route that, if you choose to use it, bypasses almost all of the commercial activity in that mall. If anyone says that this is a significant (more than 0.1%) drawback of an experience they'd otherwise have enjoyed, I'm sorry, but I don't consider that to be credible.

I don't disagree with you, oakapple. I'm not one who is so terribly affected as to be put off by the mall situation of the restaurant. You are certainly correct in stating that 99% of the experience is inside the restaurant, which I find to be one of the more pleasant restaurant settings I've experienced.

That being said, those faux blue doors still bother me... not enough to distract me from the "main event," but something that I can't quite separate from my the rest of my experience. Everytime someone mentions per se, those "doors" are one of the first things to pop into mind - only because they were my first impression/encounter with the restaurant (in person). Sorry, I guess it's a mental block for me that I recognize is certainly an aberration from the "normal" person...

Edited by ulterior epicure, 31 October 2007 - 04:59 PM.

[Mayur]

It is not meant to be. I am merely suggesting that it would be irrational—and should not be regarded as credible—if anyone really said that the mall setting affected their enjoyment of Per Se to any significant degree.

What you actually said, was that "the food is not my favorite style, since I find Keller's cuisine goes a little too far in the direction of refinement at the expense of pure flavor." Those are perfectly credible reasons. But if your feelings would have been different by moving Per Se to a different location, I will stand by the statement that it is not credible. (Obviously you have every right to say it, this being a free country & all....)

I must disagree... if only based on a comparison with TFL, which I and everyone I personally know who has been to both prefers *as a dining setting* to Per Se.

...the 4 minutes begin when you reach the restaurant. No one says, "I don't like Le Bernardin because of the block that it is on," even though it is a rather dull block, and you need to walk on that block for at least 4 minutes to get to the restaurant.

But the block is an important part of the setting. Check out Bryan Miller's 1986 review of LB, which opens with a discussion of the restaurant's "location in the Equitable Building [which] commands notice." (Incidentally, street location vs. location within a building are two very different things from a design and architecture viewpoint anyway, so I'm not convinced we're not talking apples and oranges anyway.)

Well, Per Se's "block" is inside a building, and that building happens to contain a shopping mall, but they've given you a route that, if you choose to use it, bypasses almost all of the commercial activity in that mall. If anyone says that this is a significant (more than 0.1%) drawback of an experience they'd otherwise have enjoyed, I'm sorry, but I don't consider that to be credible.

First impressions are a very, very big deal. Moreover, the entrance is not so much of a real bypass. Compare, for instance, with Le Grand Vefour or Jules Verne, both of which have less annoying entrances than Per Se.

FWIW, I don't consider this an essential part of my issues with the restaurant, in that I would never specifically not recommend Per Se to someone on the basis that it's in the TWC. Moreover, it has been established that Keller originally wanted a proper street-level entrance that completely separated the restaurant from the rest of the mall, and didn't get it. I will differ with you on your characterization of the current nature of that route (walking into a mall and taking an elevator to the 4th Floor does not constitute "bypass[ing] almost all the commercial activity in that mall" for aesthetic purposes, and incidentally I have encountered wine tastings right in the middle of the hall blocking my way to Per Se's door *twice*), but I agree that it's not all that interesting an element of the place to talk about, in any case. So why don't we move on? :)

Edited by Mayur, 31 October 2007 - 10:40 PM.

[mugsy]

As to whether Per Se is "worth it": My dislike of the Columbus Circle mall setting probably colors my experience somewhat....

I find this a little difficult to comprehend. You can go in a side entrance, take an elevator, and walk into Per Se. Your exposure to the "mall" lasts a grand total of about 4 minutes; the meal, about 4 hours.

Exactly.

And, and don't forget the shoppers gawking at the front trellis, the unworldly faux garden and the blue doors - one musn't forget those blue doors that aren't real either...

... the restaurant is definitely in a mall... no 2 ways about it. I'll agree that once your inside, the mall effect disappears - and yes, that is the majority of your "per se experience." However, for the mall-averse, I can easily see how the mall setting taints the overal feel - from the first impression to the very last when you "walk" out those faux doors...

i must be missing something with the doors... there is no other way in the restaurant, you walk up to the doors and the glass slides open on either side, what is the problem with that, do you need the actual blue door to open to have a better meal????