455 replies to this topic

[kretch]

RE: wine flight.

In mid-June, the only wine pairing they offered us was @$175, not $250.

They were extremely generous, topping off our glasses at appropriate intervals throughout each course. They left us the balance of several bottles towards which we had indicated -- quietly and not so quietly -- a particular preference. A member of our party who quietly showed an indifference to our cheese course was quickly provided with both a new plate, after he was asked about his cheese preferences, and a new paired wine to accompany it.

Bottom line: We were a party of five, four of us got the foie supp @$30 and one person got the Wagyu supp @$75 (huge mistake IMO; it was offered against the Eslysian Fields' lamb, which was, for me, the standout plate of the evening.) After splitting everything evenly five ways, it came out to $503 per person. (Food $1445, wine $875, tax $195. Service included.)


Here's what we got for $175, 6/16/07, in Per Se's words:

Pierre Gimonnet, Champagne, Blanc de Blancs, Cuis, 1er Cru, France MV

Zilliken, Riesling, "Ockfener Bockstein," Kabinett, Saar, Germany 2001
&
Bert Simon, Riesling, "Serrig Wurzberg," Goldkapsel, Auslese, Mosel, Germany 1989

Colin-Deleger, Chassagne-Montrachet, "En Remilly," 1er Cru, Burgundy, France 2001

Walter Hansel, Pinot Noir, "Cuvee Alyce," Russian River Valley, California 2004

Camigliano, Brunello di Montalcino, Italy 2001

Chateau Montrose, Saint-Estephe, France 1999

Domaine du Viking, Vouvray, "Tendre," Loire Valley, France 2004

Jorge Ordonez & Co., Moscatel, "#1," Malaga, Spain 2005

Cossart Gordon, Madeira, Bual, 10 year MV

Edited by kretch, 20 August 2007 - 10:35 AM.

[hardiemarc]

Thanks oakapple, am booked in next week and $150 was pretty much what i had in mind..Will let you know how I get on!

I recently snagged a reservation for October 7th. Did you find the process difficult? For the first half-hour I tried calling and was unable to get through to the reservation line. After I finally got through to the reservation line I had to wait another ten minutes. I thought that I was doomed for disappointment but I was able to get a 5:45 reservation for two (pretty hard to get, so I am told). Has anyone else had this sort of experience?

[oakapple]

Thanks oakapple, am booked in next week and $150 was pretty much what i had in mind..Will let you know how I get on!

I recently snagged a reservation for October 7th. Did you find the process difficult? For the first half-hour I tried calling and was unable to get through to the reservation line. After I finally got through to the reservation line I had to wait another ten minutes. I thought that I was doomed for disappointment but I was able to get a 5:45 reservation for two (pretty hard to get, so I am told). Has anyone else had this sort of experience?

I have a reservation for the 2nd weekend in September. My experience was similar, but I don't believe I had to redial for quite as long as you did. But yes, I was redialing for about 15 minutes, and then was on hold for probably another 10-15 minutes. Fortunately, the appointed day for calling (2 months in advance) was a non-work day. I even got a reasonably civilized time (around 7:00 p.m.), rather than the dreaded 5:45.

[riboflavinjoe]

we had reservations about 20 minutes after the phone lines opened. we got it for 545. while 545 is a bit early, any reservation at per se is one i will gladly take. looking forward to it!

[babern38]

Any idea of the cost of the standard wine pairing? And am I correct in understanding that the price someone quotes me will include service?

Thanks.

[oakapple]

Any idea of the cost of the standard wine pairing?  And am I correct in understanding that the price someone quotes me will include service? 

Thanks.

Just read a few posts upthread. About $175pp seems to be the going rate, and it does include service.

[IrishAdventurer]

Hello ladies and gentlemen, glad to see a thread discussing Per Se, even if it is in the context of rising prices. My wife and I ate there last November, and I knew then, at 27 years of age, I'm unlikely to have a meal better than it for the rest of my life (unless I get reservations for El Bulli sometime!).

It was $220 per person when we were there, extras and wine brought our bill up to about $860, and I'd spend it again tomorrow if I had the chance. I know it's a lot of money, but some of the dishes were just mindboggling...anyone had the Snickers Bar there?

We had that Gimenet Blanc de Blancs champagne too, it's wonderful, and I had a glass of that '89 Bert Simon Riesling with a foie gras terrine course, it was lovely.
Edit to add: I wasn't aware of a wine pairing option. We had the champagne to start, I had the dessert Riesling with the foie, and we had a bottle of red and a bottle of white for the other courses. Two full bottles of wine might sound excessive to American palates, but it seemed a good idea at the time, and what we had was superb.

I agree about the lobster though: while I liked it, and don't mind seafood with bite, I did think it was a bit chewy.

But the overall experience, from the service, ambience, dramatic view over Central Park in the rain, was absolutely magical. People here couldn't believe we could spend that much on a meal, but I told them: go, and if you don't enjoy it, I'll pay for it myself. I'd say that to anyone.

Edited by IrishAdventurer, 23 August 2007 - 11:53 PM.

[kretch]

Me three on the lobster. Was underwhelmed.

[Shmily]

we had reservations about 20 minutes after the phone lines opened.  we got it for 545.  while 545 is a bit early, any reservation at per se is one i will gladly take.  looking forward to it!

Have a wonderful evening....We have used your method of calling and eaten at Per Se three times...we are not drinkers and had only 1 glass each...which I must say was handled beautifully...if they do not suggest it, ask for a tour of the kitchen after your meal..it is super...and a real treat...in fact I have little but wonderful things to report...we read the threads about Per Se before going and they got us even more excited...

[ulterior epicure]

Digging through my back-issues of Gourmet Magazine, I stumbled upon this, from the September, 2004 11th Annual Restaurant Issue (pg. 159).

Under the heading "More Splurge-Worthy Restaurants" in a side box:

New York - Per Se
Located in the new Time Warner Center, Thomas Keller's glamorous new restaurant offers choice views of Central Park as well as a $150 nine-course extravaganza that may include Keller's piece de resistance, butter-poached lobster.

I believe the price tag is now up to $250 for the tasting, sans wine?? I got in last year when it was at the $210 mark.

[Jesikka]

Digging through my back-issues of Gourmet Magazine, I stumbled upon this, from the September, 2004 11th Annual Restaurant Issue (pg. 159).

Under the heading "More Splurge-Worthy Restaurants" in a side box:

New York - Per Se
Located in the new Time Warner Center, Thomas Keller's glamorous new restaurant offers choice views of Central Park as well as a $150 nine-course extravaganza that may include Keller's piece de resistance, butter-poached lobster.

I believe the price tag is now up to $250 for the tasting, sans wine?? I got in last year when it was at the $210 mark.

And not just with the price tag. Between per se and ad hoc, TK has opened up the opportunity for a myriad of bad latin restaurant names. Perhaps ab irato for Jeffrey Chodorow? Or the next branch of spotted pig, "ad astra per alia porci?" Res ipsa loquitor for a confident restauranteur?

Not to get off topic though. The price increases at per se have been enormous, but I think it's proof of what the market can bear. They're booked all the time. I feel pretty certain they could increase the price tag another $50 and not see a signifcant drop in demand.

[Nathan]

It includes service now. so the price increase (I think it's $225 now) is more like $30.

[Fat Guy]

It's $250 now but does include service, which would have brought a $150 bill up to $180. So that's a $70 increase, or 38.9%. That's significant, though still a good value for what you get at Per Se. We'd also have to know if the meal you get today is the same as the one you got for $180 or if it is enhanced somehow -- I'm not sure I know anybody who has dined at Pe Se enough times over time to rule on that with authority.

[daisy17]

Res ipsa loquitor for a confident restauranteur?

Fantastic.

[ulterior epicure]

And not just with the price tag.  Between per se and ad hoc, TK has opened up the opportunity for a myriad of bad latin restaurant names.  Perhaps ab irato for Jeffrey Chodorow? Or the next branch of spotted pig, "ad astra per alia porci?" Res ipsa loquitor for a confident restauranteur?

I won't venture to offer what restaurateur might open caveat emptor next...

[Fat Guy]

For the definitive topic on making fun of Thomas Keller's silly restaurant names, please see the "Caveat Emptor" topic here.

[oakapple]

It's worth noting that when Per Se opened, there was a 7-course option that was $135, I believe. Only the 9-course options are offered now.

From the beginning, Per Se has taken reservations two months to the day in advance. Those reservations were invariably gone within an hour of when the reservations line opened at 10:00 a.m. every day. As FG noted at the time, if you're charging $150 and selling out instantly, then in economic terms you're charging too little.

Even at its significantly higher price Per Se is still sold out most of the time.

Edited by oakapple, 31 August 2007 - 01:02 PM.

[Fat Guy]

I think at $300 or even $350 the place would still be selling out at dinnertime, but that Thomas Keller doesn't believe in pricing himself that far out of reach. Personally, if that's indeed his goal, I'd like to see him push his dinner prices as high as the market can bear, and at the same time lower his lunch prices to $150 or perhaps even offer a less elaborate lunch in the $100 range. This would be a more effective way of allowing middle class people to dine at Per Se without committing $550 minimum (assuming tap water and no extras) to the venture for a two-top.

[ulterior epicure]

If I'm not mistaken, when the service was first made compris, the price increased from $150 to $210 - and that was just a few months before my visit early last year. So, in a year, the price of the food has increased somewhere in the neighborhood of $35, as FG, I think, pointed out a little earlier. He does make a good point - I wonder if changes in products accounts for that change.

[oakapple]

If I'm not mistaken, when the service was first made compris, the price increased from $150 to $210 - and that was just a few months before my visit early last year.  So, in a year, the price of the food has increased somewhere in the neighborhood of $35, as FG, I think, pointed out a little earlier.

Actually, the 9-course tasting menu started out at $150 before tip/tax, and was raised to $175 before tip/tax. Then it was raised to $210 including tip (amounts to 20%). I believe the current price is $225 or $250.

[Fat Guy]

The current price is $250.

[stetson99]

The current price is $250.

And don't forget that the bottle of water they paid a $1.50 for is now offered gratis!

Edited by stetson99, 01 September 2007 - 07:17 AM.

[Qwerty]

One thing to keep in mind here, is that the transportation costs for goods has increased significantly over the last couple of years. I can only imagine what the shipping charges on some of the items the restaurant gets in must be--but all the flown in dayboat seafood, mushrooms from the west coast, etc, can't be cheap. They probably pay almost as much in shipping as they do for the actual product, and with gas prices steadily going up and up every year....it's no wonder.

[Pan]

The current price is $250.

And don't that the bottle of water they paid a $1.50 for is now offered gratis!

Who paid $1.50 for a bottle of water? Not the restaurant, surely!

[Shmily]

It's $250 now but does include service, which would have brought a $150 bill up to $180. So that's a $70 increase, or 38.9%. That's significant, though still a good value for what you get at Per Se. We'd also have to know if the meal you get today is the same as the one you got for $180 or if it is enhanced somehow -- I'm not sure I know anybody who has dined at Pe Se enough times over time to rule on that with authority.

This is not "with authority"...just what I "think" I remember...We ate there shortly after their opening...(after they reopened after their fire) and twice after that...most recently in May..I do not believe that the meal is "enhanced"...a few dishes were extra originally and still are, when they are offered. They bring everyone extra courses, and sometimes tell you these are "special" for you..they are not. They did that from the beginning..We have had kitchen tours each time...Chef Keller was there the first time...I still believe that the meal is the best I have ever had in New York City...We have always had wonderful service and attention and I see it as a wonderful treat for our very special occasions.

[Fat Guy]

Cost of product could account for a small portion of the increase, but not a 40% increase. Otherwise every restaurant at the top level would be showing 40% increases, whereas many have barely increased their prices at all over the past decade. I'm not sure Jean Georges and Le Bernardin have even kept pace with inflation, though we'd have to graph it to be sure.

One thing to keep in mind is that restaurants often raise their prices within a year of opening, because they keep their opening prices artificially low in order to attract business. So some of the bump -- probably the bump to $210 -- was inevitable and normal. It just seems large because the base was large to begin with, and therefore a percentage of that base is large as well.

The tipping issue may be relevant here as well. At a restaurant like Per Se, it's quite possible that tips were higher than 20%. Nobody knows for sure -- with all the cash exchanged, and with the lack of any studies at this level of the business, for all we know tips were in the 30% range. I'm also not sure how the service charge system affects wine tips. So in part it may be that the restaurant has to pay its staff more in order to compensate for the lost income from the service charge policy.

I also wouldn't overlook simple supply and demand as possible explanations. I take no offense if Per Se is simply charging what the market will bear. It could just be as simple as that.

All of this has to be viewed against the backdrop of just what you get at Per Se. There's a reason the market is willing to bear such a high price. You can't find this level of experience so easily. You get an amazingly elaborate meal, the restaurant barely seats any people, the quality and quantity of service are astounding, the kitchen is densely populated. I was amazed they could do it for $150 plus tip. I'm probably still amazed they can do it for $250 including tip.

[kai-m]

Since here in germany we are not familiar with that "tipping culture" (or waiters get a decent salary AND 5-10% tip...), I have one question: is this service charge at per se kind of "fixed" from the start, meaning: is it 20 or whatever % of the *menu price* only (as is implied)? And do you have to give extra tip for the beverages-bill then (which would mean that the service charge is not really included, but only a part of it)?

Or do they take the whole check as a base and add the service-%age?

In this case it would be absurd to say that the service charge is included in the 250$-menu-price since it actually is not...


Thanks
Best
kai

[Nathan]

Since here in germany we are not familiar with that "tipping culture" (or waiters get a decent salary AND 5-10% tip...), I have one question: is this service charge at per se kind of "fixed" from the start, meaning: is it 20 or whatever % of the *menu price* only (as is implied)? And do you have to give extra tip for the beverages-bill then (which would mean that the service charge is not really included, but only a part of it)?

Or do they take the whole check as a base and add the service-%age?

In this case it would be absurd to say that the service charge is included in the 250$-menu-price since it actually is not...


Thanks
Best
kai

neither. it's just a flat $250, including service. what percentage of that $250 actually goes to service salaries is unknown to customers.
the supplementary wine bill also includes service.

[kai-m]

That means the listed price for a bottle of wine or a glass of champagne already includes service?

[ulterior epicure]

That means the listed price for a bottle of wine or a glass of champagne already includes service?

No, I believe what Nathan was referring to was the wine pairing that comes with the set menu. If you order the wine pairing, as a whole, the service is included in the price of the wine pairing. I think that prices of bottles/glasses separately do not include service.