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Water Ganache


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#1 Desiderio

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Posted 19 October 2006 - 10:16 AM

I have to be honest I never tryed a water ganache , I saw on this forum that someone used this method but I never tryed ( maybe its time ).
I was reading that "Melt" http://www.meltchoco...com/kitchen.htm in London uses this typ of ganache in almost all their truffles /chocolates ,and I am intrigued by this .
I know that they are two different things , but lately I was reading my CI best recipe baking illustrated book, my latest purchase, they were explaining the fact that a chocolate cake made with cocoa instead chocolate is actually moister and water is the best option to obtain a more chocolate intense flavor instead milk, like the difference between chocolate milk and a nice dark bittersweet, no challenge there right?
So I think this might be a point in the water ganache side, water would make the chocolate flavor more intense right?

I will give it a try , I would like to know if the proportion for a water based one would be the same as for a cream based one.

Thank you

Oh another thing , since is made out of water the aw would be higher right?and have a shorter shlf life?

Edited by Desiderio, 19 October 2006 - 10:24 AM.

Vanessa

#2 alanamoana

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Posted 19 October 2006 - 10:38 AM

i would think that you can't replace water for cream 1:1 only because the cream has added fat which might help stabilize your chocolate emulsion? but that doesn't mean i know how much water you can add... :hmmm:

also, adding only water and a flavoring (let's say liqueur) to make a ganache...i would think it would be a pretty stable mixture (shelf-life-wise) because even though you're adding water (we're always trying to reduce water activity/content), you aren't adding a dairy product which has sugar on which bacteria can feed even though i know there is some in the chocolate already. it just seems to make sense that water and liqueur are more stable than cream and liqueur at room temperature...am i jumping to conclusions?

Edited by alanamoana, 19 October 2006 - 10:40 AM.


#3 John DePaula

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Posted 19 October 2006 - 11:33 AM

Well I’ve tried this and it’s surprisingly wonderful and “creamy.” Yes, you do get a deep rich chocolate flavor with a water ganache – I made mine with 70% Belgian bittersweet and Earl Grey tea (water) infusion specifically for some vegan friends.

You’ll have to be pretty patient and diligent to get the emulsion to come together but once it does it’s pretty nice. I would recommend an immersion blender to get the best results.

The only caveat is that the shelf-life is greatly reduced. I’d say they probably last about 5 days – which is why I only make them in quantity for special orders. I don’t use preservatives in my chocolates, but if you do then go for it! Also, might be a good candidate for sweeter or alcohol based ganaches which will both help to preserve the ganache naturally.

I think I tried it with a ratio of roughly 1:1 water to chocolate but your mileage may vary. Good luck, Vanessa, and if you decide to pursue please let us know how they turn out!

Ciao!
John DePaula
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When asked “What are the secrets of good cooking? Escoffier replied, “There are three: butter, butter and butter.”

#4 Desiderio

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Posted 19 October 2006 - 11:52 AM

Thank you Alana and John :smile:
I will definately try , I dont use preservatives as well , I dont think artisanal chocolates needs them and they need to be consumed fresh ,so I will experiment with it a little , the earl grey sounds wonderfull I love the taste with chocolate.
I will experimenting with coconut milk, just to see how it taste , texture and etc.
This is part of the journey , trying , testing , making mistakes and succed ,its fun sometimes frustrating but its all good.

Thank you :smile:
Vanessa

#5 RodneyCk

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Posted 19 October 2006 - 11:55 AM

The only so-called water ganaches I have come across still have cream in them, usually with rose water added, but this is intriguing. Sounds delicious.

Here (edited to add link)! Just found a recipe for one, at the bottom of this page;

http://www.deliaonli...012/thread.html

Edited by RodneyCk, 19 October 2006 - 12:01 PM.


#6 Trishiad

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Posted 19 October 2006 - 01:57 PM

according to chantal cody:


8 oz chocolate
1 cup boiling water

melt chocolate and add water a spoonful at a time.

if you want to infuse the water with earl grey, use 4 teaspoons

#7 alanamoana

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Posted 19 October 2006 - 05:24 PM

The only caveat is that the shelf-life is greatly reduced.  I’d say they probably last about 5 days – which is why I only make them in quantity for special orders.  I don’t use preservatives in my chocolates, but if you do then go for it!  Also, might be a good candidate for sweeter or alcohol based ganaches which will both help to preserve the ganache naturally.

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can you explain the reduced shelf life to me? i understand reducing water activity in ganaches in order to lengthen shelf life, but if it is only water and chocolate, what is there to cause mold and bacteria growth? i know, the water, but again, there isn't the same amount of sugar, etc.

i think i'm being dense on this :huh:

#8 sote23

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Posted 19 October 2006 - 05:36 PM

The only caveat is that the shelf-life is greatly reduced.  I’d say they probably last about 5 days – which is why I only make them in quantity for special orders.  I don’t use preservatives in my chocolates, but if you do then go for it!  Also, might be a good candidate for sweeter or alcohol based ganaches which will both help to preserve the ganache naturally.

View Post


can you explain the reduced shelf life to me? i understand reducing water activity in ganaches in order to lengthen shelf life, but if it is only water and chocolate, what is there to cause mold and bacteria growth? i know, the water, but again, there isn't the same amount of sugar, etc.

i think i'm being dense on this :huh:

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that's what I thought as well, since there is no cream, i thought they would last longer, but I guess they don't. maybe it's the fat in the cream that stabilizes it.

#9 Pam R

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Posted 19 October 2006 - 07:01 PM

Count me in on not understanding the reduced shelf-life. Could you add some other fat to counter the missing fat from the cream? :blink:

#10 RodneyCk

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Posted 19 October 2006 - 07:07 PM

Higher water content will promote bacteria growth. I believe the rule states that if something contains 65% or more sugar than water, it can be shelf stable. Since this ganache is definitely more water than sugar, well...

Edited by RodneyCk, 19 October 2006 - 07:09 PM.


#11 alanamoana

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Posted 19 October 2006 - 07:50 PM

Higher water content will promote bacteria growth.  I believe the rule states that if something contains 65% or more sugar than water, it can be shelf stable. Since this ganache is definitely more water than sugar, well...

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thanks for that clear explanation rodney. if you made a ganache with invert sugar, water and chocolate, would that increase shelf life then? since you're increasing sugar levels? this is hypothetical as i assume you'd want that clean flavor if you're bothering to make a ganache with water in the first place.

#12 RodneyCk

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Posted 19 October 2006 - 08:01 PM

Higher water content will promote bacteria growth.  I believe the rule states that if something contains 65% or more sugar than water, it can be shelf stable. Since this ganache is definitely more water than sugar, well...

View Post


thanks for that clear explanation rodney. if you made a ganache with invert sugar, water and chocolate, would that increase shelf life then? since you're increasing sugar levels? this is hypothetical as i assume you'd want that clean flavor if you're bothering to make a ganache with water in the first place.

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Hi there. Invert sugar is basically simple syrup with acid. You would be again probably adding more water to it, more than sugar anyway, so I don't think that would increase its shelf life, infact it would do the opposite.

Plus, I found this recipe in another piece online that stated the following regarding adding sugar to it:

Note. The addition of sugar is not advised. Should you require a sweeter result, use castor sugar or experiment with Palm, Demerara or Treacle sugar.



I haven't used or played around with this recipe, so it is all new to me as well.

#13 John DePaula

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Posted 19 October 2006 - 09:18 PM

Sorry folks – been kinda swamped today. Just getting back to this thread. Sounds like Rodney has his finger on things, though. I did think that adding more sugar and/or alcohol would surely increase shelf life but I admit that I haven’t tried that as yet. I’ve just noted empirically that a plain water ganache chocolate doesn’t last as long as my others. Hope this helps.
John DePaula
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When asked “What are the secrets of good cooking? Escoffier replied, “There are three: butter, butter and butter.”

#14 Kerry Beal

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Posted 20 October 2006 - 04:04 AM

I'm fiddling this morning and I've made a water ganache. I removed 2 tbsp of the boiling water and after mixing added 2 tbsp of room temperature kirsch.

I used 250 g bittersweet with 250 ml liquid and I've got very smooth soup so far. I suspect this is too much liquid. I'll wait until it cools to be sure, but I think the proportions are going to need some tweeking.

#15 RodneyCk

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Posted 20 October 2006 - 07:40 AM

I'm fiddling this morning and I've made a water ganache.  I removed 2 tbsp of the boiling water and after mixing added 2 tbsp of room temperature kirsch. 

I used 250 g bittersweet with 250 ml liquid and I've got very smooth soup so far.  I suspect this is too much liquid.  I'll wait until it cools to be sure, but I think the proportions are going to need some tweeking.

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Now that is one soup that would be mighty tasty. :biggrin:

Please keep us posted on your findings.

#16 John DePaula

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Posted 20 October 2006 - 07:50 AM

I'm fiddling this morning and I've made a water ganache.  I removed 2 tbsp of the boiling water and after mixing added 2 tbsp of room temperature kirsch. 

I used 250 g bittersweet with 250 ml liquid and I've got very smooth soup so far.  I suspect this is too much liquid.  I'll wait until it cools to be sure, but I think the proportions are going to need some tweeking.

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I thought the same thing, too, Kerry. It looks soupy but it should set up nicely once cooled.

ETA: One thing that I forgot to mention is that I do primarily filled chocolates so I wanted a less firm ganache for filling shells. If you're doing enrobed truffles, then you'll certainly want to use a higher chocolate to water ratio.

Edited by John DePaula, 20 October 2006 - 11:26 AM.

John DePaula
DePaula Confections
Hand-crafted artisanal chocolates & gourmet confections - …Because Pleasure Matters…
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When asked “What are the secrets of good cooking? Escoffier replied, “There are three: butter, butter and butter.”

#17 ariggsby

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Posted 20 October 2006 - 08:47 AM

This reminds me a lot of something I've recently been playing with from Herve This' Molecular Gastronomy.

He wants to make a no-egg, no-dairy chocolate "mousse" by making essentially a water ganache as described above, but with some gelatin in the liquid (he is unfortunately totally vague about the amount of gelatin). Then you beat/whisk the combination in a chillled bowl.

I've tried a couple of times, and I've been able to incorporate enough air to lighten the choclate, but not enough to add a lot of volume (or even keep it at all soft after it cools for even a few minutes more). Anybody else tried this?

Andrew
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#18 escry

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Posted 20 October 2006 - 09:04 AM

I've tried Herve This' Chantilly Chocolate. His reasoning is simple: whipped cream is 35% fat, 60% water; chantilly is whipped sweetened cream. Can you whip chocolate?

So Chantilly Chocolate: create a water ganache that is 35 parts fat (cocoa butter) to 60 parts water, plus the sugar within your chocolate (hence chocolate chantilly). Once you have created the emulsion, ie ganache, whip as if cream.

It works!

Is it the best invention ever? No, but its fun.

PS. Try eating a scoop of Chantilly Chocolate with a little extra virgin olive oil. ... Go on you might be surprised.

#19 Desiderio

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Posted 20 October 2006 - 09:13 AM

I made a little batch of the water ganache ,but I didnt do 1:1 ,I used 1 part of water and 2 to 3 part of chocolate ( I mesure the first batch of chocolate I used , but then I added more as it was too liquid),after it cooled down a little was already able to roll some truffles, just to try, the ganache is down stairs and I will try later to roll some and dip them and see how they come, the flavor seems intense of course.
Vanessa

#20 escry

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Posted 20 October 2006 - 09:14 AM

Another take on water ganache, which I have always found lacking, is to cut cream (35% fat) with water.

For example I have found that when making a ganache with Amedei's chocolates, 75% cream (35% fat) cut with 25% water makes a better, more intense ganache.

#21 Desiderio

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Posted 20 October 2006 - 09:16 AM

Another take on water ganache, which I have always found lacking, is to cut cream (35% fat) with water.

For example I have found that when making a ganache with Amedei's chocolates, 75% cream (35% fat) cut with 25% water makes a better, more intense ganache.

View Post



Have you notice if the shelf life for those chocolates was lower?Just cause the aw in the chocolate?
Vanessa

#22 escry

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Posted 20 October 2006 - 09:33 AM

Another take on water ganache, which I have always found lacking, is to cut cream (35% fat) with water.

For example I have found that when making a ganache with Amedei's chocolates, 75% cream (35% fat) cut with 25% water makes a better, more intense ganache.

View Post



Have you notice if the shelf life for those chocolates was lower?Just cause the aw in the chocolate?

View Post


Good point. In actual fact I find when cutting cream with water that the amount of water/cream that I use to make a ganache is less than it would be with just cream alone.

Not quite, but almost ... the water content remains the same and the dairy fat is reduced. Ie replace 100 parts cream (35% fat, 60% water) with 60 parts water.

As I understand it fat also helps to reduce Aw (though to a much lesser extent than sugar or salt) so just reducing fat will increase Aw, though not necessarily dramatically.

#23 confiseur

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Posted 21 October 2006 - 05:38 AM

[quote name='Desiderio' date='Oct 19 2006, 10:16 AM']
I have to be honest I never tryed a water ganache , I saw on this forum that someone used this method but I never tryed ( maybe its time ).
I was reading that "Melt" http://www.meltchoco...com/kitchen.htm in London uses this typ of ganache in almost all their truffles /chocolates ,and I am intrigued by this .
I know that they are two different things , but lately I was reading my CI best recipe baking illustrated book, my latest purchase, they were explaining the fact that a chocolate cake made with cocoa instead chocolate is actually moister and water is the best option to obtain a more chocolate intense flavor instead milk, like the difference between chocolate milk and a nice dark bittersweet, no challenge there right?
So I think this might be a point in the water ganache side, water would make the chocolate flavor more intense right?

I will give it a try , I would like to know if the proportion for a water based one would be the same as for a cream based one.

Thank you

...just to clear up a miconception or two here...Melt has only 3 water based ganaches in their very varied repertoire and the shelf life is around 7 days...

In the annual UK chocolate awards Melt and William Curley of Richmond seem to have come out on top...a fair reflection in my view as they are both 'Proper' chocolatiers...ie, they do not just make different flavoured ganaches.....

http://www.academyof...nners/2006.html

#24 Kerry Beal

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Posted 21 October 2006 - 06:42 AM

So my water ganache, soupy as it was yesterday, has certainly set up today. It seems very soft to me and I think would be difficult to coat as truffles. Should pipe ok. The taste with the kirsch is lovely and intense.

I will try again with somewhere between half and 3/4 as much water. Maybe with some rooibos tea, I've been trying to make and intense rooibos flavoured centre and the cream and chocolate tend to interfere.

#25 sugarbuzz

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Posted 21 October 2006 - 09:34 AM

I've been using this for about 12 years now. Never heard it referred to as a "ganache" though. We just call it chocolate water.
The way I do it is I melt my chocolate & add hot water until I get the thickness & consistency I want. I use it for cake glazes mostly.

As for the shelf life..I've stored this for up to 10 days at room temp in the kitchen without any mold or spoilage.

I do have a recipe for a chocoalte mousse using this method & adding whipped cream to it. No gelatin is needed & it sets up completely firm. I use it for cake fillings.

Edited by sugarbuzz, 21 October 2006 - 09:35 AM.


#26 Desiderio

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Posted 21 October 2006 - 11:03 AM

I coated the truffles last night, the were nice and firm ( I let sit the ganache overnight ) they coated ok .The falvor was nice , very intense, since was a test batch , I didnt do much for the flavor ,and next time I will try different chocoalte as well ( I am waiting for the Apamate el rey ).Anyway experiment not bad at all.
Vanessa

#27 escry

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Posted 21 October 2006 - 02:12 PM

I love El Rey's Apamate and use it for enrobing. However El Rey's Gran Saman, on which Apamate is based, is even better. Though not suitable for enrobing, it would certainly be my first choice for truffle interiors.

I've been meaning to make a ganache with these chocolates for some time. Really interested to hear your thoughts.

#28 Kerry Beal

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Posted 21 October 2006 - 04:32 PM

So today I took my water ganache laced with kirsch along to a friends where I was showing her some molding techniques.

I made some truffles with it and dipped them in milk chocolate. The texture was very soft, interesting, but the flavour was actually quite disgusting. Somehow that combination tasted like cleaning fluid.

Further experimentation to follow.

#29 miladyinsanity

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Posted 22 October 2006 - 06:26 AM

I coated the truffles last night, the were nice and firm ( I let sit the ganache overnight ) they coated ok .The falvor was nice , very intense, since was a test batch , I didnt do much for the flavor ,and next time I will try different chocoalte as well ( I am waiting for  the Apamate el rey ).Anyway experiment not bad at all.

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Ooh I love the Apamate.

To bring this back on topic, I'll probably glaze a chocolate genoise with a water ganache/chocolate water/whatever you call it, tomorrow.

Any ideas on ratio? Will 1 to 1 by weight do? I've 66% Valrhona something.
May

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#30 Desiderio

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Posted 22 October 2006 - 08:24 PM

Well i brought my "water truffles " :laugh: , at work to have my ghinni pig try them.One of the lady ios on a diet and she is been craving chocolate , I usually bring her some very dark chocolate so she can have little bit of it,well she try them and said they were very satisfying , great chocolate taste without the added fat of cream or butter etc.She came later asking me if I had more she would buy them :wink: .This is good experiment it expands my customers range, if I use a nice dark chocolate like Apamate for these kind of truffles, Iam going to have more customers willing to indulge ( the secret is to say they are good for you , of course its CHOCOLATE! :laugh: ).Well good good.Need to try some more .
Vanessa