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Clarifying juices and broths using gelatin


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#31 logicalmind

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Posted 10 September 2007 - 08:56 AM

OK...so 2 cups strained fresh carrot juice addded to .05% gelatine.....freeze...thaw in fridge w/ coffee filter will yield a clear carrot juice??
  So .05% gelatine.... is by weight of the carrot juice?

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I'm the one who posted those steps on ideasinfood regarding the carrot juice. I'll reproduce them here since this did work. I'll add any notes to make it very specific:

1. Cook diced carrots, once soft, puree with enough liquid.
2. Strain through fine sieve (or cheesecloth, I used a chinois and the result is an orange carrot juice).
3. Remove one cup of liquid and cool to room temp( I cooled this quickly by setting the container in cold water).
4. To the room temp cup of liquid, add .5% of gelatin by weight of the total amount of liquid.
5. Stir and let cup of liquid stand for 5 minutes.
6. Return to the rest of hot liquid and stir throughly.
7. Cool to room temp and then place in freezer to freeze.
8. Remove now frozen liquid and place in fine seive(or cheesecloth) over bowl and allow to thaw in refrigerator for 1 to 2 days.

As I said, this worked. The result was a clear liquid with a slight orange tint that tasted very much of carrot. It was very sweet as well. I have to admit that I was impatient and after getting minimal amount of liquid after 24 hours in the fridge I put it on the counter for about 4 hours and it went much quicker. Considering this was in my home and not in some restaurant, and considering this was vegetables and not meat-based I figured it was safe. I then brought the clear liquid to a boil and added some salt. It did not become cloudy. I now have the rest frozen in the freezer. I was considering making calcic/alginate ravioli's with it.

The ratio I used was .5% of powdered gelatin by weight. So if you have 1000g of carrot juice you would add(.005 * 1000) = 5g of powdered gelatin. I actually added a little more just in case.

Edited by logicalmind, 10 September 2007 - 08:57 AM.


#32 rooftop1000

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Posted 10 September 2007 - 04:34 PM

This keeps popping into my head, maybe because my basil is 3 feet tall... How about a basil puree, gelled - frozen - strained Right?

then gelled again into little clear basil cubes?
and tomato cubes and parmesan cheese cubes Ok this is getting weird you could turn a whole salad into little Jello cubes :shock:


tracey
The great thing about barbeque is that when you get hungry 3 hours later....you can lick your fingers
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#33 cookman

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Posted 10 September 2007 - 05:08 PM

OK...so 2 cups strained fresh carrot juice addded to .05% gelatine.....freeze...thaw in fridge w/ coffee filter will yield a clear carrot juice??
  So .05% gelatine.... is by weight of the carrot juice?

View Post


I'm the one who posted those steps on ideasinfood regarding the carrot juice. I'll reproduce them here since this did work. I'll add any notes to make it very specific:

1. Cook diced carrots, once soft, puree with enough liquid.
2. Strain through fine sieve (or cheesecloth, I used a chinois and the result is an orange carrot juice).
3. Remove one cup of liquid and cool to room temp( I cooled this quickly by setting the container in cold water).
4. To the room temp cup of liquid, add .5% of gelatin by weight of the total amount of liquid.
5. Stir and let cup of liquid stand for 5 minutes.
6. Return to the rest of hot liquid and stir throughly.
7. Cool to room temp and then place in freezer to freeze.
8. Remove now frozen liquid and place in fine seive(or cheesecloth) over bowl and allow to thaw in refrigerator for 1 to 2 days.

As I said, this worked. The result was a clear liquid with a slight orange tint that tasted very much of carrot. It was very sweet as well. I have to admit that I was impatient and after getting minimal amount of liquid after 24 hours in the fridge I put it on the counter for about 4 hours and it went much quicker. Considering this was in my home and not in some restaurant, and considering this was vegetables and not meat-based I figured it was safe. I then brought the clear liquid to a boil and added some salt. It did not become cloudy. I now have the rest frozen in the freezer. I was considering making calcic/alginate ravioli's with it.

The ratio I used was .5% of powdered gelatin by weight. So if you have 1000g of carrot juice you would add(.005 * 1000) = 5g of powdered gelatin. I actually added a little more just in case.

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Thanks, Logicalmind, for the detailed instructions. Does it matter what the consistency (viscosity) of the puree is before freezing? Does the puree of whatever we're trying to clarify need to be very thin (i.e. watery), or not?

#34 BryanZ

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Posted 10 September 2007 - 05:59 PM

The goal here is not to filter a puree but rather a broth, hence the straining of the puree. It would call it less of a "puree" than a thick broth. You're trying to remove as much of the solid as possible before the syneresis.

As an aside, I've used up to 2% powdered gelatin with decent results. The yield is lower, however.

Logical mind or anyone who has more experience with this technique can set me straight, however.

#35 logicalmind

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Posted 11 September 2007 - 02:29 PM

Thanks, Logicalmind, for the detailed instructions. Does it matter what the consistency (viscosity) of the puree is before freezing? Does the puree of whatever we're trying to clarify need to be very thin (i.e. watery), or not?

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You want the consistency to be very liquid. Basically I first push the puree through a standard seive, then I push it through a chinois. The result is what I used to add the gelatin and freeze.

#36 logicalmind

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Posted 11 September 2007 - 02:34 PM

The goal here is not to filter a puree but rather a broth, hence the straining of the puree.  It would call it less of a "puree" than a thick broth.  You're trying to remove as much of the solid as possible before the syneresis.

As an aside, I've used up to 2% powdered gelatin with decent results.  The yield is lower, however.

Logical mind or anyone who has more experience with this technique can set me straight, however.

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Yep. I basically wanted steps starting with raw vegetables going through a puree and then through a very fine seive into basically liquid, or a broth you can call it. The pre-gelatin phase should be pure liquid to the human eye.

I can't say I have more experience than anyone, I've only done this once. Just wanted to make the steps available to anyone who wanted to try it.

#37 Tri2Cook

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Posted 11 September 2007 - 03:55 PM

I did some playing with this back in early summer, it's in the pastry forum HERE. I've played around with other fruits and berries since then (I was really happy with the results using local wild blueberries). I'll have to try it with vegetable purees.
It's kinda like wrestling a gorilla... you don't stop when you're tired, you stop when the gorilla is tired.

#38 MichaelB

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Posted 14 September 2007 - 05:21 AM

I used this technique to clarify a gazpacho for a charity dinner I prepared last week.


Description of charity events in Heartland forum by one of my volunteers.


I was very please with the clarified gazpacho. Note in the following photogragh taken by one of my guests that the soup has already picked up some "stuff" from the other components of the dish. I don't have a photo pf the soup in the crystal pitchers from which it was poured at table.

Posted Image

#39 rooftop1000

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Posted 14 September 2007 - 10:48 AM

I used this technique to clarify a gazpacho for a charity dinner I prepared last week.


Description of charity events in Heartland forum by one of my volunteers.


I was very please with the clarified gazpacho.  Note in the following photogragh taken by one of my guests that the soup has already picked up some "stuff" from the other components of the dish.  I don't have a photo pf the soup in the crystal pitchers from which it was poured at table.

Posted Image

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Beautiful dish

This would be the perfect foil for my ramblings upthread about making all sorts of savory flavored jellies, like basil or pepper. If I dont get a work assignment next week I think I will play while the produce is cheap.

Does anyone know if this works with dairy? like a cheese "broth"


T
The great thing about barbeque is that when you get hungry 3 hours later....you can lick your fingers
Maxine

Avoid cutting yourself while slicing vegetables by getting someone else to hold them while you chop away.

"It is the government's fault, they've eaten everything."

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#40 BryanZ

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Posted 14 September 2007 - 04:17 PM

You can do it with dairy.

#41 Chris Amirault

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Posted 14 September 2007 - 06:12 PM

rooftop1000, I think you need to take a crack at the basil broth for the team.
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#42 rooftop1000

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Posted 15 September 2007 - 05:42 AM

I must coax the plants a little...just made 2 dozen pesto cubes


I was thinking (dangerous) not that I even like cold poached salmon with dill...but what about a dill aspic ....


T
The great thing about barbeque is that when you get hungry 3 hours later....you can lick your fingers
Maxine

Avoid cutting yourself while slicing vegetables by getting someone else to hold them while you chop away.

"It is the government's fault, they've eaten everything."

My Webpage
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#43 cookthis

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Posted 16 September 2007 - 11:49 AM

OK...so 2 cups strained fresh carrot juice addded to .05% gelatine.....freeze...thaw in fridge w/ coffee filter will yield a clear carrot juice??
  So .05% gelatine.... is by weight of the carrot juice?

View Post


for this sort of application, i don't think you need to go through with the freeze filtering. actually, i am positive you don't, since i have applied a similiar technique and done this without the use of gelatin or freeze filtering. For clear carrot juice, all you would need to do would be strain through a chinois. then strain through a filter lined chinois, once the carrot particles are trapped in the filter (the first baine will be cloudy), put the filter over a second baine and it will clarify the juice for you. - just let it do its thing - drip by drip yielding a 'consomme' - this tech is similiar to Keller's tomato juice in his FL cookbook...


i think the interesting point of this discussion is utlizing cohesive ideas and ingreidents, buttermilk, peanut butter, etc, im gonna have to try this. pb and j consomme sounds pretty sexy to me...

n8

#44 fauxtarga

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Posted 17 September 2007 - 08:21 AM

Gelatin clarified broths have great appeal to non-pros like me - it kind of reminds me of the no-knead bread from the other NYT article / Sullivan in that it takes out the technique/finesse step (kneading / protein raft).

I've been wondering about:

A good technique for doing this with traditional consommé materials - is there any difference when you make the precursor broth? Is it better to reduce before or after the gelatin clarification?

Techniques for doing this with hard cheeses, e.g. WD50's parmesan broth.

Xanthan gum - how to best incorporate / opinions on how much by weight?

No heat dashi? How exactly does that work with this, how does the gelatin clarification affect the mouthfeel that you would get from the konbu?

#45 BryanZ

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Posted 19 September 2007 - 08:28 AM

You just want the liquid to taste good, no lengthy reducing required.

I don't think you need to use gelatin filtration for a parm broth. I'm quite sure just filtering through a coffee liner would be fine. Again, it's a matter of getting the broth to taste right. Personally, I've never been happy with the parm waters I've ever been able to make.

Xanthan is not required for the gelatin filtration process in itself. It simply adds an unctuous mouthfeel. Your going to want to follow the normal technique for incorporating xanthan into anything, paying special attention to the fact that you're not going to want to overly agitate your consomme to prevent clouding. So sprinkle, don't dump.

#46 rooftop1000

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Posted 19 September 2007 - 05:00 PM

Where did I even get this idea....I should go look for a job

Posted Image
2 cups basil sludge

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frozen

Posted Image
drip drip

Posted Image
over 1 cup of water and the sludge disk

Posted Image
basil aspic with diced plum tomato basil leaves and celary leaves

until tomorrow

tracey

Edited by rooftop1000, 19 September 2007 - 05:05 PM.

The great thing about barbeque is that when you get hungry 3 hours later....you can lick your fingers
Maxine

Avoid cutting yourself while slicing vegetables by getting someone else to hold them while you chop away.

"It is the government's fault, they've eaten everything."

My Webpage
garden state motorcyle association

#47 Tri2Cook

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Posted 25 September 2007 - 03:40 PM

As I mentioned above, I did a lot of playing around with this through the summer with fruit juices but don't have much experience with it otherwise. I decided to give it a shot with stock and have a question for the experts. I made a fairly large batch of chicken stock (about 3 gallons), added the gelatin, chilled it and threw it in a freezer in one big lump. I was planning to filter it all at once then divide it into smaller portions and I still can if necessary but my question is: could I let it melt, divide it into smaller containers, re-chill it and refreeze it or is that a bad thing to do at this point?

Tracey: That's awesome! You didn't comment on the flavor but I'm guessing since you used it for your aspic it must have been tasty.
It's kinda like wrestling a gorilla... you don't stop when you're tired, you stop when the gorilla is tired.

#48 Qwerty

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Posted 25 September 2007 - 09:40 PM

Keep in mind too that you may not need to add powdered gelatin to the chicken stock, since there should already be gelatin present in the stock. Of course, depends on the strength of the stock, but just keep it in mind.

#49 Tri2Cook

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Posted 26 September 2007 - 06:04 AM

Actually I've been using sheet gelatin, not powdered, for all of my playing with this technique, was that wrong? It's too late to not add gelatin to this batch but your right, it probably didn't need it, I just wanted to play it safe.
It's kinda like wrestling a gorilla... you don't stop when you're tired, you stop when the gorilla is tired.

#50 Kouign Aman

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Posted 26 September 2007 - 06:43 AM

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basil aspic with diced plum tomato basil leaves and celary leaves

until tomorrow

tracey

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How did it Taste?
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#51 Qwerty

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Posted 26 September 2007 - 09:07 AM

I would imagine that sheet gelatin is perfectly fine...they are both pretty much the same thing. Though I do think that sheet gelatin is a purer form and, although a lot of people think I am crazy, I think that powdered gelatin has a bit of a weird taste. But you use it in such small amounts for this technique that I think it's fine.

#52 2h74webere

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Posted 26 September 2007 - 12:04 PM

I tried this using peanut butter. The result is sort of cool - but the yield is tiny. I probably didn't use enough water this time around (and perhaps too much geletin, I went at nearly 1%), and the result is much of the stuff is left over in the filter (too thick).

Question: Is everyone here using anormal coffee filter? Or do you have something special? Also, has anyone tried repeating the process over again to remove more color? I've noticed a "tint" to most of these clarified stocks which is nice sometimes, but I just wonder what it would take to get it near perfectly clear.

#53 Tri2Cook

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Posted 26 September 2007 - 12:11 PM

I decided not to bother melting and dividing it after all. I built a contraption by fitting a large colander on top of a plastic bucket, lining it with cheesecloth and fitting a matching colander into the other one so the cheesecloth is sandwiched in between. I then inverted the container with the ~3 gallons of frozen, gelatinized stock into the colander and wrapped the whole thing in plastic wrap. I'll let it do it's thing for a couple days and see what I get.
The stock was strong going in. I roasted off the chicken for a bit and simmered it in water, strained it and put it in the fridge. Did the same thing the next day with new chicken and just a little more water added. On the third day I did the same yet again with new chicken again but this time I also added the mirepoix and reduced it a bit after straining. I don't usually do all of that for stock of course but this particular consomme has a specific purpose and I wanted a serious "liquid chicken" thing going on, which I got, so I hope it's still there after the filtering.
It's kinda like wrestling a gorilla... you don't stop when you're tired, you stop when the gorilla is tired.

#54 Tri2Cook

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Posted 26 September 2007 - 12:24 PM

Question: Is everyone here using anormal coffee filter?  Or do you have something special?  Also, has anyone tried repeating the process over again to remove more color?  I've noticed a "tint" to most of these clarified stocks which is nice sometimes, but I just wonder what it would take to get it near perfectly clear.

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I use a normal coffee filter for smaller amounts, layers of cheesecloth in a colander for larger amounts. I think some things are going to be tinted (but still crystal clear) no matter what you do. My strawberry consomme was very clear, you could read text through it, but still had a pink/red color to it. Kinda like putting a drop of red color in a glass of water. Some fruits gave this "tinted" result, some actually turned out literally "clear as water". I'm fairly new to this technique but I think it may depend in part on what you're using and how you extract the liquid. Some things just seem to "stain" (for lack of knowing a better description) the liquid. I don't think you can always end up with something that looks like water but tastes like something else but you can always end up with something that's completely free of cloudiness. Of course this is all just from my personal observation and not an educated reply so take it for what it's worth.
It's kinda like wrestling a gorilla... you don't stop when you're tired, you stop when the gorilla is tired.

#55 mkayahara

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Posted 02 October 2007 - 09:53 AM

I see that a couple of people upthread have mentioned that chocolate consomme can't be heated. What happens if you do? Does it matter what type of chocolate you use? I'm thinking cacao nibs or powder might be different from bar chocolate, which might be different again at different concentrations.

I was thinking it might be fun to do a riff off of wd-50's miso soup with sesame noodles by doing "chocolate-dipped strawberries," with a warm chocolate broth and strawberry yogurt noodles. Purely for the interactive, entertainment value, of course. :wink:
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#56 BryanZ

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Posted 02 October 2007 - 04:40 PM

I like the idea. How do you bind the noodles again? I think I knew at a time but have since forgotten.

#57 mkayahara

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Posted 02 October 2007 - 06:29 PM

I like the idea.  How do you bind the noodles again?  I think I knew at a time but have since forgotten.

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I was planning on using methylcellulose, which is why it's important to be able to heat up the chocolate consomme. :biggrin:

It's still a very preliminary idea, though, since I've never used methylcellulose or the gelatin clarification process before. If you want to run with it, though, please do! I'd love to see it pulled off.
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#58 Tri2Cook

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Posted 12 October 2007 - 12:16 PM

This thread is fun. From the department of weird, fried egg consomme. I don't have a practical use for this but it was an idea I wanted to try and it worked. The flavor is there and it clarified nicely. You can distinctly taste the egg, that they were cooked in butter, that they were fried (you can taste the caramelization) and you can pick up the pepper they were seasoned with. It took a little playing around and there were a couple of unsuccesful batches before I got it right. I'm happy it worked even if I never do it again.

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It's kinda like wrestling a gorilla... you don't stop when you're tired, you stop when the gorilla is tired.

#59 BryanZ

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Posted 14 October 2007 - 08:53 PM

Must say that particular thought never crossed my mind. Fried eggs, then just pureed in water? The image is not quite as pleasing as chocolate- or fruit-based consomme.

#60 Tri2Cook

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Posted 18 October 2007 - 01:12 PM

Yeah, it doesn't sound too exciting and it's not too exciting cold. Actually, it's not super exciting warm either but it tastes like what it is and that was my goal. Actually getting the flavor into the water didn't turn out to be as easy as just pureed fried eggs in water. That was my first failed batch. What finally worked was eggs fried well above and beyond what should be done to any egg, raw egg yolks (that was the part that was most difficult to get across, the first batch just tasted like boiled egg whites), a few peppercorns and a dose of brown butter all simmered in water, strained, reduced and filtered. I wasn't actually after something I would eat or serve to someone else with this, just playing with moving flavors to another medium without all the fancy (pronounced: expensive) gadgets that are out there. Now if somebody wants to buy me a Rotaval or Heidolph evaporator (or a Gastrovac!) I'll be glad to accept. Might as well throw in a Clarimax while they're at it and I can dispense with the whole raft or freeze filtering process for consommes. :biggrin:

Edited by Tri2Cook, 18 October 2007 - 03:00 PM.

It's kinda like wrestling a gorilla... you don't stop when you're tired, you stop when the gorilla is tired.