25 replies to this topic

[Bill Poster]

Other stouts always seem a little thin/watery when compared.

whats the secret?

[budrichard]

Other stouts always seem a little thin/watery when compared.

whats the secret?

A higher ingrediant content. As a former home brewer, the only way to get body and head is to use a high percenatge of of malt. Most commercial brewers use additives and stabilizers to give the illusion of head because it is cheaper to make a brew that way. It looks nice but has no body in the mouth.
The real champs are the Germans for body because the Laws prohibit additives and the Germans expect thier beer that way. -Dick

[Bill Poster]

Why is the ABV not stronger as a result of more grain?

[TongoRad]

Draft Guinness is definitely a low gravity beer. There is a two-part answer to your question (I'll just give a Readers Digest version):
1- Proteins. They are responsible for both head retention and body in a beer, and if not broken down properly during the mash process can even give a cloudy appearance. The process of malting the barley will also break the available proteins down, particularly in modern highly modified malts. Irish stouts like Guinness have both unmalted barley and roasted unmalted barley as a good portion of their grist, so the proteins therein will have a greater impact on the palate and head than one would expect from a similar low gravity beer. (Higher gravity beers- more pounds of grain per gallon- will come across as having a more full palate just because there is more of everything in there.)

2- Nitro 'blend' instead of CO2 carbonation (draft, widget package) gives a creamier mouthfeel and richer head.

Hops probably also play a role, but not to the extent of the two mentioned above.

Just out of curiosity- what stouts would you say seem watery or thin to you?

Edited by TongoRad, 28 August 2006 - 10:57 AM.

[dsoneil]

Some in the industry have stated that gelatin is used to stabilize the head and give Guinness the "extra" body. There are no laws against using these additives (except Germany).

[Snowy is dead]

what accounts for the difference in guiness pints from bar to bar? I've always thought it was a freshness thing over here in the US, but even in Dublin guiness/stouts aren't the same. Is it the mixture of gas or do the barrels lose their "freshness" extremely quickly? Sometimes the head coats the whole glass when your done, sometimes you just get a brown puddle at the bottom.

Sean

[mtigges]

Most Guinness here in NA is actually quite thin in body, and quite low in alchohol. So much so in fact that it did almost as well as some of the low-carb beers that were the fad last summer in a head to head test (BYO had an article, but I can't find which issue right now, sorry).

That said there are many different kinds of Guinness. Some more "stout" than others.

Most of the mouthfeel comes from the fact that Guinness is served with beergas. A mix of nitrogen and CO2. The nitrogen does not dissolve in the beer ... it used only to push under high pressure through a sparkling tap. This causes VERY small bubbles in a stable foam. If only CO2 were to be used then the beer would overcarbonate. The sparkling tap also has the side effect of stripping most of the CO2 out of solution leaving the beer comparitively flat.

The smooth dense foam and nearly flat beer make the beer feel heavier when it fact it isn't. This is imitated to some degree with the nitrogen widgets in the cans.

A previous poster mentioned "higher ingredient content." Not sure exactly what he meant ... but the real truth behind creating high body is not necessarily to use more malt, but to mash it at a higher temperature. If you mash at 60-65 degrees C you will produce a MUCH more fermentable wort than if you mash around 70. The reason for this is that there are two chief enzymes responsible for converting starch to sugar. The B enzyme works best around 62 and produces mono-sacharides which are easily fermented by yeast, the A enzyme produces dextrines, which are not, and add sweetness & body/mouthfeel to the finished product.

Guinness is I suspect mashed around 62 C. It is very dry. If you let the beer go flat, and measure it with a hydrometer, I suspect it will be substantially under 1.010 specific gravity, probably around 1.006. Right in line with NAIL standards.

[NYC Mike]

Other stouts always seem a little thin/watery when compared.

whats the secret?

It is a blessing by god!

[TongoRad]

mtigges:
Dextrins are probably worth noting, but it is the proteins that do the heavy lifting:

From The Complete Handbook of Home Brewing by Dave Miller (re: lack of body)-

One myth that seems to die hard among home brewers is that dextrins contribute to that body of a beer. The great Belgian brewing scientist Jean de Clerck proved this false long ago. On the other hand, it is easy to see how the idea arose...The simplest way to increase the body of a pale beer is to incorporate a pound of Cara-pils malt into the grist. Due to the malting method, this material is rich in body-building proteins.

dsoneil:

Some in the industry have stated that gelatin is used to stabilize the head and give Guinness the "extra" body. There are no laws against using these additives (except Germany).

Gelatin, isinglass and other finings are added for clarity- they aid in getting the yeast and any other solids out of the beer and are not meant to be a part of the final product at all, so it is not really an 'additive' per se.

Edited by TongoRad, 28 August 2006 - 11:38 AM.

[freshherbs]

a lot of the perceived thickness has to do with the temperature too. in general, Guinness is drawn at a warmer temperature than in the US and, as a result, seems thicker

[cdh]

Guinness gets a lot of its perceived thickness from the nitrogen/CO2 high-pressure dispensing system that whips a lot of gas into the solution too, which contributes to that mouthfeel.

[dsoneil]

Guinness gets a lot of its perceived thickness from the nitrogen/CO2 high-pressure dispensing system that whips a lot of gas into the solution too, which contributes to that mouthfeel.

The N2/Co2 systems are being used for almost all kegs in every bar I've worked. It's becoming a generic term to call this gas mixture "beer gas." So I can't see that as being the sole reason for the thickness associated with Guiness.

Also, I've never seen a Guiness keg stored seperately from the other beer kegs. They keep all of the kegs in the same cooler. Also, in any of the bars I've worked there has never been a seperate draught tower for Guiness, it is always shared with other beers.

I've had oatmeal stout and the head is very thick to start but it disappears eventually. With Guiness the head stays for way to long to not be artificially assited.

[Davydd]

I sampled Guinness in at least a dozen English pubs and found it not to be much different than what I can get in Minneapolis' Irish pub, The Local. If England served at a warmer temperature than the states it was not that evident. England was not serving warm brew in 2004 in its pubs but the myth must persist. I think differences are in the mind and in the freshness and handling because I can go across the street from the Local to the Newsroom and get a bad Guinness.

I've also home brewed a dark stout that was a pretty good Guinness knockoff but it is hard to get that creamy smoothness in taste. The other brew I learned to love in England was Boddington's Pub Ale. It too had that smooth creamy taste.

[TongoRad]

Guinness gets a lot of its perceived thickness from the nitrogen/CO2 high-pressure dispensing system that whips a lot of gas into the solution too, which contributes to that mouthfeel.

The N2/Co2 systems are being used for almost all kegs in every bar I've worked. It's becoming a generic term to call this gas mixture "beer gas." So I can't see that as being the sole reason for the thickness associated with Guiness.

Also, I've never seen a Guiness keg stored seperately from the other beer kegs. They keep all of the kegs in the same cooler. Also, in any of the bars I've worked there has never been a seperate draught tower for Guiness, it is always shared with other beers.

I've had oatmeal stout and the head is very thick to start but it disappears eventually. With Guiness the head stays for way to long to not be artificially assited.

The oatmeal stouts do not have the combination of being brewed with unmalted barley along with the Nitro- in fact the oats are a detriment to head retention. Check out this article: BYO- Fabulous Foam

This is why adjuncts that are high in fat including oats and eclectic brewing spices with high oil contents such as coffee beans tend to decrease foam.

also (emphasis mine):

Raw or flaked barley adjunct increases beer viscosity. Some homebrewers occasionally add a pound or two of flaked barley to pale ale type beers and Irish stouts. Beyond increasing head retention, the barley fills out the body of the beer. ...(SNIP)...Some beers, Guinness in particular, are served with a nitrogen (N2) and carbon dioxide mixture. These beers have a very thick, beady head that seems to last forever. In the case of Irish stout, this is partly due to the high viscosity of the beer. However, N2 is also responsible. N2 gas creates very fine bubbles that are structurally more stable and therefore less likely to burst. Furthermore, N2 gas is somewhat trapped in the foam. Since it is not very soluble in liquid, N2 tends to leave the beer and go directly into the foam. However, keep in mind the idea of equilibrium. The atmosphere is 75 percent N2 as opposed to 0.2 percent CO2, so the N2 gas in the beer foam is not escaping to the atmosphere at any great speed. Consequently, a nitrogen foam is happiest just sitting on top of the beer. To the beer drinker's delight, this effect is aesthetically pleasing.

I would guess the phenomenon people are associating with Guinness also applies to other Irish stouts such as Murphy's and Beamish when served on nitro. There is such a thing as a head promoter (alginate esters) added for foam stability, but these beers don't need it due to their makeup.

[eje]

Doesn't the (relatively) low alcohol of Guinness also help in head retention?

[Bill Poster]

The other brew I learned to love in England was Boddington's Pub Ale. It too had that smooth creamy taste.

And John Smith's I think, has that smooth thing going, . I know that Guinness doesn't travel very well at all- shocking pint in Japan(heart stopping price too)

Edited by Bill Poster, 29 August 2006 - 12:51 PM.

[mtigges]

mtigges:
Dextrins are probably worth noting, but it is the proteins that do the heavy lifting:

From The Complete Handbook of Home Brewing by Dave Miller (re: lack of body)-

One myth that seems to die hard among home brewers is that dextrins contribute to that body of a beer. The great Belgian brewing scientist Jean de Clerck proved this false long ago. On the other hand, it is easy to see how the idea arose...The simplest way to increase the body of a pale beer is to incorporate a pound of Cara-pils malt into the grist. Due to the malting method, this material is rich in body-building proteins.

Far be it from me to question de Clerk, or even Miller, but I think proteins are a different issue than the one we're talking about in stout. Moreover, there are many Hefeweizen examples which feel quite thin in body despite their disporportionate amount of protein. Stouts are in general brewed with low protein ingredients, so differences in mouthfeel and body in this case, I feel, are more likely due to mashing regimen.

But it's definitely the case that proteins affect body of the beer. I just think it's different than high alpha mashed beer.

Edited by mtigges, 30 August 2006 - 09:41 AM.

[tim]

Guinness gets a lot of its perceived thickness from the nitrogen/CO2 high-pressure dispensing system that whips a lot of gas into the solution too, which contributes to that mouthfeel.

Chris,

While I know you are the expert in beers, I think your description may be incorrect.

Nitrogen does not mix with liquids, CO2 does. A higher pressure tapping system will allow extra gas (CO2, not the N) to incorporate with the beer resulting in over-carbonated beer with excessive foam.

There are two ways to produce the long lasting heavy foam found in Guiness without having excess foam.

1. You can pressurize the (CO2) carbonated keg with Nitrogen gas at a higher than normal level. You then, release the beer through a tap with a fine filter that breaks up the CO2 gas into extra fine bubbles. These fine bubble create the slowly rising gasses and heavy long lasting foam.

2. Alternatively, you may increase the pressure on a keg, with CO2, at the time of tapping and release the beer through the same type of filter. The temporary higher pressure is not present long enough to over carbonate the beer.

The canned Guiness uses a widget, a small ball with a very small hole. The CO2 carbonated beer is placed in the can and the top of the can is pressurized with Nitrogen. Less than 5% of the beer enters the widget. When the can is opened the beer in the widget squirts throught the small hole creating tiny bubbles that provide the fine head.

Not very eloquent, but I think this is correct.

I have heard about Guiness gas but do not think that it could contain any CO2. Am I misguided?

Tim

[mtigges]

I have heard about Guiness gas but do not think that it could contain any CO2.  Am I misguided?

Guinness gas is a synonym for beer gas iirc. This is usually a mix of CO2 and N at 50% levels I believe.

[cdh]

I have heard about Guiness gas but do not think that it could contain any CO2.  Am I misguided?

Guinness gas is a synonym for beer gas iirc. This is usually a mix of CO2 and N at 50% levels I believe.

Read more about beer gas here. The host site is a specialist distributor of beer dispensing systems, so I give their explanation a fair bit of credit. I'll note it doesn't specifically address the perceived "thickness" at the root of this thread... but in my experience that thickness is common to all nitrogen draft beers, not just Guinness, so I'm comfortable with standing by my position that the thickness is a byproduct of beer gas and the high pressure stout faucets that go with it.

For further fun reading on beer gas issues for homebrewers, click here.

Edited by cdh, 13 October 2006 - 08:29 AM.

[tim]

Chris,

These links confirm my conclusions which were based on an article in Brew Your Own some years ago that provided instruction for making your own "Guiness Taps" (small metal circle with tiny holes) to break up the CO2 bubbles to achieve that "nitrogen pressured" mouthfeel.

I now realize that the reason for the partial inclusion of CO2 is to maintain the carbonation of the beer as the keg is tapped.

You will also note that the purpose of the Nitrogen is to propel the beer under high pressure through the Stout Faucet. Use of high pressure CO2 (except for momentary increase in pressure) would result in too much foam.

Conversely, charging non-carbonated beer with Nitrogen would result in flat beer under pressure. NITROGEN IS NOT EASILY ABSORBED BY LIQUIDS. Those small bubble providing mouthfeel in Guiness and the foam in Guiness cans are all CO2.

Tim

ps: The answer on nitrogen bubbles in a liquid may best come from a chemist.

Edited by tim, 13 October 2006 - 10:12 AM.

[Mayhaw Man]

When I was living in Ireland (Enfield, County Meath) one of the most interesting phenomenons that I came across was Budweiser (brewed in Ireland under contract-but supervised by AB guys from St Louis at all times-as they do in the rest of the world) being poured with alagal (beer gas). It had this bizarre (and frankly pleasing) creaminess to it and was really quite refreshing. The head, though not a Guinness or a Murphy's (my favorite stout over there-they ask for a "pint of soup" when calling for it at the bar), was demonstrably thicker and richer than a Bud out of a bottle (even that same Bud, which was packaged in bottles, as well.

I believe that the pouring situation with this had more to do with the equipment at hand rather than some kind of preference. The pubs, generally, already had the systems (usually supplied by the brewery that the house was aligned with) and so it just made sense to adjust the original carbonation in the Bud for draft to suit the pouring systems.

Another one that I quite liked that was poured with nitro/co2 was Caffery's from Belfast. Though hard to find in the South, it was very, very good. A bitter with a kind of creamy, toffee background-though not overly sweet.

[cdh]

Conversely, charging non-carbonated beer with Nitrogen would result in flat beer under pressure.  NITROGEN IS NOT EASILY ABSORBED BY LIQUIDS.  Those small bubble providing mouthfeel in Guiness and the foam in Guiness cans are all CO2.

Tim,

Kindly explain, then, why it is that the "widgets" in draught cans are full of nitrogen, if nitrogen has nothing to do with the mouthfeel of beergas propelled beers. That fact would seem to contradict your contention that nitrogen never gets into solutions and has nothing to do with perceived texture. Reread my BYO article link, and then tell me that nitrogen is only about pressure and nothing about texture.

While you're at it, please reconcile your theory of nitrogen insolubility with the bends, and nitrogen narcosis.

Edited by cdh, 13 October 2006 - 03:06 PM.

[tim]

Chris,

Clearly the nitrogen is a catalyst in the percieved texture. Nevertheless, I do not think there is any nitrogen in the widget and the moutfeel is provided by the carbon dioxide which was broken into tiny bubbles under nitrogen pressure through a small hole.

Not to be testy, but, I assumed that beer is CARBONATED, not nitrogenated. The widget is filled with beer, beer which has absorbed carbon dioxide. The beer (in the can and in the widget) is under higher than usual pressure from the nitrogen which sits at the top of the can.

If the high pressure air at the top of the can (or keg) was easily absorbed by the beer (like CO2) the resulting beer would be a shower of foam. They use nitrogen because it won't be absorbed by the beer and won't become a foamy mess.

According to the Brew Your Own article (I will look up the date for you), the release of pressure at the top of the can leaves that small widget with high pressure and a very small hole. As the beer pressures out of the widget, the small hole breaks the carbon dioxide bubbles into fractionally smaller bubbles which suspend in the beer. The result is the mouthfeel and nitrogen was the catalyst.

The exact process occurs in the keg although all of the beer is tapped through the small holes of a "Guiness Tap" breaking up the CO2 bubbles.

The bends is caused by an AIR embolism affecting primarily your lungs but also your blood and lymph system. I have never been below 65 feet but know that Nitrogen Narcosis results from nitrogen's toxicity under high pressure, again entering the body through the air sacs of the lungs. Again, I don't assume that nitrogen is absorbed by liquids at 14.7 pound per square inch of pressure.

I may be wrong and they might be filling those Guiness cans under 200 feet of water.

Tim

Edited by tim, 14 October 2006 - 04:14 AM.

[cdh]

Tim,

It is not just me that makes the claim that there is nitrogen in solution in Guinness. Guinness themselves do, right here in this patent filed with the USPTO in 1981. Unless fundamental laws of physics have changed in the past 25 years, nitrogen still goes into solution along with the CO2.

So, you're wrong in your assumption Guinness is only CARBONATED and not at all nitrogenated. That is just not so.

BTW. in your expanation of the bends, you emphasize AIR... but you clearly haven't thought about what makes up 78% of air. Hint- chemical element N.

Edited by cdh, 14 October 2006 - 06:08 AM.

[tim]

Chris,

The Guiness patent includes the following statement. "it is relatively insoluble in fermented liquor such as beer, e.g. in the order of less than 0.05 vol./vol. as compared with 100%"

I will grant you that it appears that Guiness contains a very small percent of Nitrogen molecules. This article also points out that the gas is applied by injecting foam into the liquid, a process I did not assume.

The article quantifies the volume of dissolved carbon dioxide at 51 to 53 times the abount of nitrogen. This means that the beer is 98.1% carbonated and 1.9% nitrogenated by volume.

I still understand that high pressure Nitrogen is not easily absorbed by liquids. CO2 under pressure is easily absorbed by liquid with no exitation.

You will be shocked to know that 78% of air consists of Nitrogen. I merely stated that, "I don't assume that nitrogen is absorbed by liquids at 14.7 pound per square inch of pressure." The bends is caused by gas absorbed by body under pressure and not wanting to be aborbed under normal pressure.

Tim

Edited by tim, 14 October 2006 - 09:41 AM.