33 replies to this topic

[Swisskaese]

This weekend I am going to attempt for the second time to make this bread and I will post my results.

I didn't get very far this past weekend because the dough just didn't rise. I don't know if it was the weather (very hot here at the moment) or the yeast or the flour, but I did change something from the original recipe. It calls for regular flour and 00 flour. I do not have a source for 00 flour. I tried using bread flour and AP flour. What is the benefit of using 00 flour? I know it is great for pasta, but what are the benefits for bread?

I should explain that it only calls for about 1/4 of a cup of 00. Also, this dough is a very wet dough. It suppose to be a very airy dough. It calls for five, 30-minute risings. I am worried that the yeast is going to die on me with that many rising, since it petered out on the first rise.

Edited by Swisskaese, 22 August 2006 - 07:46 AM.

[tino27]

My guess would be 1) yeast is no longer viable or 2) not enough gluten formation in the dough to trap the gas released by the yeast.

You didn't say what kind of yeast you used, but if it's active dry, you'll definitely want to bloom it in some tepid water (110-115 deg F) for a few minutes to make sure it's alive before adding it to the dough. Instant and fresh cake yeast don't need this pre-treatment, but you may want to do it anyway to check on the status of your yeast.

I wouldn't think it would be the room temperature, as yeast doesn't die until around 140 deg F. I'm thinking if it's THAT hot outside, the last thing I'd think about doing would be making bread.

[Abra]

Michelle, in addition to potential yeast problems, I just want to say that bread flour isn't a good sub for 00. The 00 is a very low protein flour, whereas bread is high protein. A sub for 00 is 75% AP flour and 25% cake flour, so using a little cake flour would be the direction you want to go, flour-wise.

[Swisskaese]

Michelle, in addition to potential yeast problems, I just want to say that bread flour isn't a good sub for 00.  The 00 is a very low protein flour, whereas bread is high protein.  A sub for 00 is 75% AP flour and 25% cake flour, so using a little cake flour would be the direction you want to go, flour-wise.

I looked back at the recipe and it calls for 425g of strong flour and 100g of 00 flour. Should I use 425g of the bread flour and 100g of 75% AP and 25% cake flour?

I always bloom the yeast. I bought some new yeast that I plan to use this weekend. It is saf-instant. Usually, I use a fresh yeast cake. It is possible that the yeast cake was not fresh. Although it was very active when I bloomed it. Anyway, we will see what happens this weekend.

[Abra]

That's what I'd do with the flour, and don't bloom the SAF! It's meant to be added to the dry ingredients.

[Swisskaese]

That's what I'd do with the flour, and don't bloom the SAF!  It's meant to be added to the dry ingredients.

Thanks Abra. I am glad you told me not to bloom the SAF.

[David802]

I have a question...Why do you need any of this "00" flour..or the pastry flour, what is the point?


seems like a waist of flour...(my non expert opinion...)

Also I was told if fresh cake yeast is more then a week or so old its dead...Could be wrong (if I am then I through away a lot of yeast at work the other day..)

Also I've never bloomed my yeast and have always had good results...So why can't you just add it Dry?

[tino27]

The point of the different flours is the final texture of the bread. Incorporating a little "00" or pastry flour would weaken the gluten formation slightly, giving the baked bread a different look and feel. For example, there is a big difference in making a loaf of bread with 100% whole wheat flour versus 50% whole wheat and 50% bread flours.

Fresh yeast can actually survive quite a long time -- well past the expiration date. I had a chef instructor of a bread class who used one of those vacuum seal home devices to re-seal her left over yeast and she claimed it was good for up to three months. Personally I keep an air-tight container of instant yeast in my freezer and have had no problems even 9 or 10 months after opening the original vacuum packed bag.

As for the re-activation question ...

Joy of Baking

The relevant paragraph ...

"You may have noticed that in some recipes it calls for dissolving the yeast first in a warm liquid and then adding this active yeast mixture to the flour. Other recipes, however, call for the yeast first being added to the flour and then the warm liquid is added. The dissolving of the yeast first in a warm liquid is done to make sure the yeast is still fresh and active. This step really doesn't need to be done though because of how reliable the dry yeast is today. Also, the dry yeast has such a small granule size that it dissolves easily into the dough without having to be reconstituted separately. Some bakers, however, still feel that it is a good idea to test the yeast to make sure it is still active before adding it to the flour."

[danlepard]

Hello Michelle,

The idea is to stretch and fold the dough during its long 3 hour rise, rather than to give the dough a "knock back" in the old-fashioned way. From para 3 on, ignore the words "leave in a warm place" and instead leave the dough somewhere cool - at about 18C - 20C if that's possible.***

If your kitchen is very warm then you cut the yeast to a third of a sachet - here in the UK we rarely get hot days and kitchens are typically chilly.

The point of combining a soft flour with a strong bakers flour is that it should result in a less tough and elastic crust after a relatively short (3 hour) rise.

The reason we make a pre-ferment is slightly more complicated that simply testing the reliability of the yeast. All dry yeast benefits from being mixed with warm water - some manufacturers suggest at temperature of around 34C (93F) - in order to soften the outer skin that surrounds each grain of dry yeast. If you mix 3g (1/2 sachet) dry yeast with 50ml warm water (34C) and a few tsp flour and leave it for 15 minutes, then add this bubbly mixture to 500g flour and 325ml water (at 20C), the result will be as if you have used 7g fresh yeast. But if you were to mix the dry yeast into 20C water the action would not just be slower but would take 3/4 hour or so for the fermentation to kick in before rapidly gaining momentum. Mixing the dry yeast with warm water will keep the ferment steady without a sudden ramp in speed after an hour.

It's been a long time since I had a good look at this recipe, and I would rewrite it if I could - though now it's not possible as publishers are very keen to extract to most out of the printing plates and tend to just reprint the same text again and again. The days of errata slips and corrections are probably over.

regards

dan

***The confusion in the text happened because I was working with a co-author (this is usually shorthand for a brilliant, experienced food writer) Richard Whittington, trying to explain this strange method of stretching and folding the dough which at that time (1998) was rather uncommon. Now I write every word myself.

[Abra]

That's very interesting, Dan. So you would do a pre-ferment even with instant yeast?

[duckduck]

After looking over the recipe last night, I'm going to give this one a try. It's a beautiful looking loaf. Very glad to see the tips and advice Dan. Thanks!

[danlepard]

Hello Abra

If I wanted to keep the bulk of the liquid used in the dough is cool (at around 20C/68F) - say if the recipe contained a portion of sourdough starter or had chunks of cheese in it - or if the dough-making process is short (under 3 hours), then I would mix the dry yeast with warm water first so it was ready to ferment as soon as the final dough was mixed.

Also, it appears that the longer the dough-making process the longer the dough stays fresh-tasting, and I find I prefer the crumb texture in a recipe made with a pre-ferment (what we used to call "a sponge" in the old days) than one made with all of the yeast mixed in at once. But that's only possible if you have the time spare. There are times you have to make a loaf very quickly, and in that case I'd keep the liquid used to mix the dough warm and chuck everything in at once.

I will try to redo a step-by-step with pics of the garlic bread for the baking forum here when I can.

regards

dan

[duckduck]

A step by step with pics would be so absolutely fabulous! (Okay, I'm excited. )

[Swisskaese]

Hello Michelle,

The idea is to stretch and fold the dough during its long 3 hour rise, rather than to give the dough a "knock back" in the old-fashioned way. From para 3 on, ignore the words "leave in a warm place" and instead leave the dough somewhere cool - at about 18C - 20C if that's possible.***

If your kitchen is very warm then you cut the yeast to a third of a sachet - here in the UK we rarely get hot days and kitchens are typically chilly.

The point of combining a soft flour with a strong bakers flour is that it should result in a less tough and elastic crust after a relatively short (3 hour) rise.

The reason we make a pre-ferment is slightly more complicated that simply testing the reliability of the yeast. All dry yeast benefits from being mixed with warm water  - some manufacturers suggest at temperature of around 34C  (93F) - in order to soften the outer skin that surrounds each grain of dry yeast. If you mix 3g (1/2 sachet) dry yeast with 50ml warm water (34C) and a few tsp flour and leave it for 15 minutes, then add this bubbly mixture to 500g flour and 325ml water (at 20C), the result will be as if you have used 7g fresh yeast. But if you were to mix the dry yeast into 20C water the action would not just be slower but would take 3/4 hour or so for the fermentation to kick in before rapidly gaining momentum. Mixing the dry yeast with warm water will keep the ferment steady without a sudden ramp in speed after an hour.

It's been a long time since I had a good look at this recipe, and I would rewrite it if I could - though now it's not possible as publishers are very keen to extract to most out of the printing plates and tend to just reprint the same text again and again. The days of errata slips and corrections are probably over.

regards

dan

***The confusion in the text happened because I was working with a co-author (this is usually shorthand for a brilliant, experienced food writer) Richard Whittington, trying to explain this strange method of stretching and folding the dough which at that time (1998) was rather uncommon.  Now I write every word myself.

Hello Dan,

I am not worthy! Thank you so much for answering my question and explaining the method. I really appreciate it.

I will try putting the dough near the air conditioner.

This is what is so cool about eGullet. I am going to make the bread this weekend. I have had this cookbook for a year and have been staring at the beautiful picture of the garlic bread. I can't wait to give another go. I will post pictures.

Regards,

Michelle

Edited by Swisskaese, 23 August 2006 - 03:35 PM.

[Swisskaese]

Today is garlic bread day! I began with getting all my ingredients together:



Bread flour
AP flour
Cake flour (not pictured)
Yeast
Water
Orange juice
Salt
Garlic
Pepper
Balsamic vinegar
Sugar
Polenta for baking (not pictured)

First step was to mix flour, yeast and water together. And, let it sit for 1-1/2 to 2 hours.



Because the room temperature is approximately 22 degrees, I used room temperature water. My other ingredients are also all at room temperature.

So far, so good.

This was the results after 30 minutes.....



I thought it looked pretty frothy. The instructions say to let it sit for 1-1/2 to 2 hours or until it is frothy.



I went ahead and added the orange juice, rest of the bread flour and the AP & pastry flour. And mixed it until it formed a ball.


Add oil and tuck


Smooth?

Then I added half of the olive oil and mixed the dough under itself in quarter turns of the bowl and it doesn't look so smooth and shiny. I worked it for quite a while and decided that maybe I shouldn't overwork it; so, I stopped and let it rise for 45 minutes.



Then I deflated the dough and added the rest of the olive oil. I tucked the dough under itself again in quarter turns of the bowl and let it rise for 30 minutes. I am continuing to do this five more times.

More to come later....

[Swisskaese]

While the dough is on its last 30 minute rise, I made the garlic filling. First I broke up the three heads of garlic into cloves, peel remaining. Tapenade thought I should add another head of garlic. He is Hungarian!



Then, I blanched the garlic for 2 minutes in boiling water. Drained and rinsed with cold water. I proceeded to peel the garlic cloves.



Then, I heat a pan with olive oil, added the garlic, water, balsamic vinegar, sugar, salt, pepper and chopped rosemary and cooked until the garlic was tender. Then I removed the garlic and reduced the liquid to a syrup.



Here is the finished filling.



More to come later...

[Swisskaese]

The final thirty minute rise has finished and now I am a bit worried. I dumped the dough out on to a floured surface, but it was still very wet and impossible to spread out. It didn't look anything like the picture in the book.



I decided to work it a little bit. And then I spread it out into a rectangle. It still doesn't look like the picture in the book, but I continued.



I spread the garlic mixture on the dough. I reduced the balsamic vinegar sauce to a syrupy sticky mixture which hardended a bit like candy. Once I spread it on the dough it started melting a bit and became runny. I continued to follow the instructions.



I folded the dough in thirds, lengthwise and then folded both ends. See the sauce leaking out of the dough? Now it is resting for 30 minutes more.



I hope this is going to turn out.

[Swisskaese]

After the 30 minute rise, I cut the dough into three pieces and now it is rising for 1 hour. I really have my doubts. I think the dough is not strong enough to wrap itself around the garlic, it doesn't look as thick as the dough in the book.



The dough finished its 1 hour rise and it did not double in size. I am going to bake it anyway and see what happens. Any help out there?

Edited by Swisskaese, 26 August 2006 - 11:35 AM.

[Swisskaese]

It was a dismal failure.

Back to the drawing board.

[Aphra]

It's not an expert opinion or anything, but provided your yeast is nice and active, which it looked like it was, there's no real reason why your bread shouldn't rise, eventually.

I would usually consider the times in bread recipes as a guide, rather than being prescriptive, and if my bread hadn't risen adequately in whatever the recipe's time frame was, I'd have just given it more time.

I think that if you'd given your bread a bit more time at the stages where you felt it wasn't working properly, you'd have got a good result.

There are a lot of variables with bread making, and I've found it's more effective, for me at least, to work to how the bread looks and feels, than to the times in the recipes.

[danlepard]

Hello Swisskase,

I'd agree with exactly what Aphra said. Must say it all looked very promising, there wasn't a photograph where the dough looked wrong. It's a bit early now (7am) but as soon as the shop aroung the corner opens I'll buy some garlic, and make, photograph and tinker with the ingredients quantities and method description for you here.

regards

Dan

[Swisskaese]

That would be great. I really think the dough was too wet or I didn't work it enough in between the five 30-minute rises. I definitely want to give it another try. I wish I could come to London and take a lesson.

Edited by Swisskaese, 27 August 2006 - 06:19 AM.

[tryingsomethingnew]

Hello Swisskase,

I'd agree with exactly what Aphra said. Must say it all looked very promising, there wasn't a photograph where the dough looked wrong. It's a bit early now (7am) but as soon as the shop aroung the corner opens I'll buy some garlic, and make, photograph and tinker with the ingredients quantities and method description for you here.

regards

Dan

That would be wonderful! I can't wait.

[danlepard]

Hi everyone,

Here it is, the refashioned, corrected garlic bread recipe, fresh out of the oven in my kitchen here at home and on it's way to the neighbours any minute now (we get a bit of a baking glut in our house).

Starting with the money shots:



The changes:

For the pre-ferment
I've separate the ingredients and method from the main recipe, meaning that you could substitute the same weight and consistency of sourdough starter for the pre-ferment (lengthening the times for the final dough accordingly, probably stretching the total final dough time to about 3 - 5 hours depending on the temperature).

As is, I've halved the yeast and used a little more than half the water and a just over a third of the flour. This means that there is much more flour left (for the yeast to ferment) when you mix your final dough. The pre-ferment water temperature is much higher, which get the yeast activated quicker. After about 2 hours the number of yeast cells in the pre-ferment will have doubled

For the garlic filling
I've increased the amount of water and reduced the quantity of sugar (I never liked it too sweet). Other than that I've left it almost the same. Don't see where the excess liquid comes from, after 5 minutes even with the increased water barely any syrup remains. But to be sure I've added that the liquid should have reduced to a "thick caramel".

For the dough
Here I've dropped the '00' flour and used all strong white bakers flour instead to simplify it. I would add the substitution of a small amount of '00' in place of the strong white flour in the main dough (which will make the crust a little crisper, but will require less water in the mix) as a suggestion rather than 'a must' in the recipe. As the recipe now uses 100% strong white bakers flour I have increased the water in the dough by 50ml. For all you percentage lovers reading this makes the water in the final dough 80% of the total flour weight. I've introduced 3 short kneads in the bowl at 10 minute intervals. I find this produces a great result without affecting the dough temperature - energetic slapping, kneading and flicking the dough wont give a better result, possibly a worse one, but might give you a satisfying buzz - hey, whatever rocks your boat.

for the mixing and folding
I've introduced three short 10 sec kneads at 10-minute intervals at the beginning, then left the dough for 30 minutes, gave it one stretch-and-fold, then left it another 30 minutes before adding the garlic. This means the garlic is added after 1 hour rather than 3 hours, so the dough is much more lively before it goes into the oven.

for the baking
Few ovens can reach 250C! The baking time is simply wrong. Far too high, and far too long. Bake at 200C for 25 - 30 minutes, or until a good deep golden brown.

for the pre-ferment
200ml water, at about 35C - 38C (95F - 101F)
1 tsp fast acting yeast
200g strong white bakers flour

for the dough
225ml water at 20C (68F)
325g strong white bakers flour
10g sea salt
75ml extra virgin olive oil


for the garlic filling

3 heads garlic, separated
2 tablespoons extra virgin olive oil
50ml water
1 tablespoon balsamic vinegar
2 tablespoons caster sugar
1 teaspoon salt
1/4 teaspoon black pepper
1 spring fresh rosemary, leaves picked and chopped


for the pre-ferment



To easily get the temperature of the water roughly correct measure 100ml of boiling water and add 200ml cold water, then measure the amount you need from this. Stir in the yeast then, when dissolved, stir in the flour until evenly combined.



Leave the mixture covered at about 20C - 22C (warmish room temperature) for 2 hours, stirring the ferment once after an hour to bring the yeast in contact with new starch to ferment.

for the garlic filling



Break the heads of garlic into cloves and place in a saucepan, cover with boiling water from the kettle and simmer for 3 - 4 minutes.



Then strain the garlic from the water, cover the cloves with cold water to cool then peel the slivery skin from the garlic. It's surprising how few cloves you get after peeling so don't be alarmed if "3 heads of garlic" sound like way too much.



Heat the olive oil in a frying pan then place the add the cloves to it and cook until they are lightly brown (not burnt) on the outside. If you burn the garlic the flavour is nasty and you will have to start again, or serve it to your friends with a straight face, so watch them carefully.



Measure the balsamic and the water then add this to the pan with the sugar, salt, pepper and rosemary. Simmer for 5 minutes until the liquid has reduced to a thick caramel.



Scrape into a bowl and leave to cool. The garlic cloves should be tender when pierced with a knife.

back to the dough:



After 2 hours the pre-ferment should have doubled and look bubbly on the surface. Measure the water into a bowl and tip the pre-ferment into it. Break it up with your fingers until only small thread-like bits remain (this is the elastic gluten you can feel in your fingers)




Add the flour and salt then stir the mixture together with your hands. It will feel very sticky and elastic. Scrape any remaining dough from your hands, cover the bowl and leave for 10 minutes so that the flour has time to absorb moisture before being kneaded. Be sure to scrape around the bowl to make sure all of the flour is incorporated into the dough.



Pour 2 tbsp olive oil onto the surface of the dough and smooth it over the surface with your hands. Now rub a little oil on your hands and start to tuck your fingers down the side of the dough, then pull the dough upward stretching it out.



Rotate the bowl as you do this, so that all of the dough gets pulled and stretched. You'll find that the dough starts to feel and look smoother. Leave the dough in a ball, cover and leave for 10 minutes.




Repeat the pulling and stretching of the dough, for no more than about 10 - 12 seconds. You may find that an oiling piece of dough breaks through the upper surface. This isn't a bad thing, but it is a sing to stop working the dough. Cover the bowl again and leave for a further 10 minutes.




This time oil a piece of the worksurface about 30 cm in diameter. Oil your hands, pick the dough out of the bowl, place it on the oiled surface and knead it gently for 10 - 15 seconds. Return the dough to the bowl, cover and leave for 30 minutes.



Uncover the dough, oil the worksurface once more and flip the dough out onto it.



Stretch the dough out into a rectangle, then fold the right hand side in by a third.



Then fold the in by thirds again so that your left with a square dough parcel. Place this back in the bowl, cover and leave for 30 minutes.



Lightly oil the worksurface again and stretch the dough out to cover an area roughly 30cm x 20cm. Dot the garlic over the 2/3rds of the surface and then fold the bare piece of dough over a third of the garlic-covered dough (in the pics above I've folded the right-hand piece of dough over).



Then roll this fold of dough over so that the remaining garlic-covered piece is covered by dough. Then fold this piece of dough in by a third, as shown in the pics above....



...then in by a third again. Finally place the folded dough back in the bowl, cover and leave for 30 minutes.




Wipe the oil off the worksurface and lightly dust it with flour. Pin the dough out again as above and fold it in by thirds each way. Replace it in the bowl, cover and leave for a further 30 minutes.



Pin the dough out again fold it in by thirds each way again as shown. Leave the dough for 10 minutes while you prepare the tray the bread will rise on.






Cover a large dinner tray with a tea-towel. Lightly dust it with white flour, then cut the dough into thirds with a serrated knife.



Place the dough cut side upward on the tray then pinch the fabric between each so that they stay separated.



Cover and leave for 45 minutes while you heat the oven to 200C (same for fan assisted)/390F/gas mark 5-6. I put a large unglazed terracotta tile in the oven and shovel the dough directly onto it with the back of a small cookie tray. It gives a much better finish and perhaps the bread is slightly crisper, but the bread will still be good placed on a tray just before baking. I also put a small tray of water in the bottom of the oven so that the heat is a little moist, which will help the bread to rise and colour.



Lightly dust the back of a cookie tray (if you have a stone in the oven) or the surface of a baking tray with semolina or flour. Carefully pick the dough up off the cloth, scooping it in from end to end with your finger then quickly lift it clear of the cloth and onto the tray.




Either shovel the dough onto the hot stone, or place the baking tray in the oven, shut the door quickly and bake for 20 - 30 minutes until the loaves are a good rich golden brown

[devlin]

Dan, that's gorgeous, and the tutorial is awesome.

A question about blanching the garlic. Is the blanching done only to more easly remove the skins? Or could you just as easily buy the big jars of already-peeled garlic, skip the blanching and then proceed as usual with sauteing?

And by the way, if you are ever in the Louisville area and would like to do a bread baking session at my bakery, you just say the word.

[donyeokl]

Hi Dan,

That's a great tutorial you've done... Appreciate the time and effort you put into doing this even though you are busy with all your other works.

Big thanks!

Cheers...
Don

[Swisskaese]

Thank you so much Dan. I will make the adjustments in the book and try it again. I think this version of the recipe is much more user friendly.

[Tepee]

Very kind of you, Dan! And, it's truly remarkable that your recipes are 'living' and not cast in stone just because they are published. Just made your Apple and Custard Loaf yesterday...for a Sunday brekkie! Delish.

If you have a minute to spare, busy busy man, you should post this on your site.

Edited by Tepee, 28 August 2006 - 02:04 AM.

[MelissaH]

Hi Dan,

This bread looks absolutely marvelous. I think I'm going to have to try it because I'm an absolute sucker for cooked garlic.

But I have a question. In my refrigerator, I have a sourdough starter that I've been feeding with equal masses of water and flour. Can I use 400 g of my starter in place of your pre-ferment? I think the flavor of my sourdough might work nicely with a somewhat sweet and garlicky filling. Or in your opinion would this not be a good idea?

MelissaH

[danlepard]

Melissa, I would use a mixture of leaven and yeast just to give the dough a little tang. Something like this:

100g active white leaven refreshed 50:50 water/flour
200ml water at 20C (68F)
1/4 tsp dry active yeast,
mixed with 50ml warm (38C) water and a tbsp flour and left for 15 minutes
325g strong white bakers flour
10g (1 3/4 tsp) sea salt
75ml extra virgin olive oil

You could leave the yeast out but, of you do, don't start folding the garlic in until you see clear signs of bubbles forming in the dough (probably after 3 - 4 hours at 20C - 25C)

regards

Dan