81 replies to this topic

[Adrienne Carmack]

Thanks, Steven. I really enjoyed your book and gave a copy to a foodie friend as a gift. In particular, the sushi part came in handy, getting me some very excellent service, and one-on-one lessons from the sushi chef at my favorite fish market/restaurant (which, unfortunately, closed the sushi bar a few months after it opened because of inadequate business).

One question - how do you actually request a sommelier's help? Every time my husband or I have a question about the food, wine, or a combo, the waiter answers our questions very confidently, making me think that we shouldn't need the sommelier. And how about if we bring our own wine - is it appropriate to ask that someone taste it and offer food recommendations? And who should you ask? The chef, sommelier, waiter?

[Fat Guy]

What, if any, is the proper protocol for tipping a sommelier or wine steward for their assistance in making a wine selection?

You can just hand over a $10 or $20 bill on your way out (or more if you were drinking hundreds of dollars worth of wine).

It's not strictly necessary to tip sommeliers, though. The sommelier is almost always either a) part of the waitstaff and therefore gets a share of the tip pool anyway (in any modern restaurant with sommeliers, captains, front waiters, back waiters, bussers, etc. -- a full service staff, as opposed to a waitress at a diner -- tips are pooled and allocated per shift) or b) is a member of management and therefore not a tipped employee (some sommeliers who are members of management will reject a cash tip, some will contribute it to the waitstaff tip pool, and some will keep it -- it depends).

So I generally only tip the sommelier independently if the nature of the assistance has been super-special, and then I might not use cash but, rather, some sort of gift. A Laguiole corkscrew is always nice if a sommelier has planned a special wine tasting for you, or has arranged a VIP tour at a vineyard, or has given you great service over many visits.

[Fat Guy]

I feel more comfortable resuming a light conversation as the server goes through the process of opening the wine rather than just everyone sitting in silence during the whole process. 

That's the right thing to do. It doesn't even have to be light conversation. Assuming you're not discussing matters critical to the national security of sommeliers or describing in graphic detail sexual fantasies that involve sommeliers, you can just continue with whatever conversation you were having before the sommelier showed up. Restaurant service should be mostly transparent, unless the customer chooses otherwise. If you want to engage the sommelier, discuss the wine, etc., you should certainly feel free to do that. But if you don't want there to be a disruption, it should go like this: 1- the sommelier presents the bottle, you look at the label and nod in the affirmative, 2- you keep right on going with your table conversation while the bottle is opened, 3- when the sommelier pours a taste, you smell it, taste it and say, "Thank you," to indicate that it's not defective, 4- you keep talking to your tablemates.

[Fat Guy]

I wanted to share a wonderful occasion enjoyed at Enoteca Vin in Raleigh, NC and the best example of restaurant service I’ve ever experienced.

I had the pleasure of dining at Enoteca Vin in October, and I was blown away by the place. Raleigh is incredibly lucky to have this culinary resource. I liked everything about the restaurant, from the house-made charcuterie to the attitude of the waitstaff (well, I confess I found the desserts to be substantially below the level of everything else, but that was the one flaw).

[Fat Guy]

How do I get the waiters in such a place to treat me as an adult interested in good food - and give me the real menu and a little advice?

Find the manager with the best English in the place and be super pushy about your desire for real stuff. Say exactly what you want: "We want the real Chinese stuff, not the stuff for round eyes, dammit. What's the best stuff?" "We want it Thai spicy, really like Thai people eat it, not like Americans. I mean it. Thai spicy, okay? Really." That usually does the trick.

[Fat Guy]

One question - how do you actually request a sommelier's help? Every time my husband or I have a question about the food, wine, or a combo, the waiter answers our questions very confidently, making me think that we shouldn't need the sommelier.

I hate when that happens, because it means I'm not going to be good buddies with the server -- I'm going to have to go around him or her; they shouldn't put you in that position. So, you just have to say, "We'd like to speak to the sommelier about our wine order, please." If the restaurant has a sommelier, you shouldn't feel bad about asking to speak to the sommelier. What the heck else is the sommelier there for? If the server says, "Is there anything I can answer," just smile and repeat yourself, "We'd like to speak to the sommelier about our wine order, please." Don't feel bad about it. Indeed, if you feel the server has been obstructionist, you should mention it to the sommelier.

And how about if we bring our own wine - is it appropriate to ask that someone taste it and offer food recommendations? And who should you ask? The chef, sommelier, waiter?

That's not a situation I've ever come across. BYO isn't all that common in New York, and when I'm traveling elsewhere I don't have access to my wine collection (if you can call it that). So I'm not particularly experienced when it comes to BYO etiquette. Someone else is going to have to chime in here. Is this something that's done? My guess is no, but I don't really know.

[Sony]

I wanted to share a wonderful occasion enjoyed at Enoteca Vin in Raleigh, NC and the best example of restaurant service I’ve ever experienced.

I had the pleasure of dining at Enoteca Vin in October, and I was blown away by the place. Raleigh is incredibly lucky to have this culinary resource. I liked everything about the restaurant, from the house-made charcuterie to the attitude of the waitstaff (well, I confess I found the desserts to be substantially below the level of everything else, but that was the one flaw).

Interesting- we actually asked if dessert could be skipped (neither of us have much of a sweet tooth) but they sent out a grapefruit granita to cleanse our palates at the end of the meal.

I realize that I never asked my question . So, Scott was the general manager, sommelier, and also served a few of our courses with detailed descriptions. Other courses were served by 2 other staff members. We just decided to leave a large tip in cash at the table and sent Scott a thank you card. Should we have set aside a separate amount of the tip for him?

[Fat Guy]

Mmm. Grapefruit granita.

The best thing to do, I think, is just leave a tip, as you did. At most restaurants at this level, the tip will go into a pool and be allocated however the restaurant allocates it. Whether Scott is part of tip pool, I don't know, but if he isn't then presumably he's paid a somewhat higher wage to compensate. The thank-you note was a really nice touch, though, and I'm sure it was worth more to Scott than an extra $20. Well, I shouldn't speak for Scott, but it would be worth more to most restaurant managers I know.

[Sony]

Mmm. Grapefruit granita.

The best thing to do, I think, is just leave a tip, as you did. At most restaurants at this level, the tip will go into a pool and be allocated however the restaurant allocates it. Whether Scott is part of tip pool, I don't know, but if he isn't then presumably he's paid a somewhat higher wage to compensate. The thank-you note was a really nice touch, though, and I'm sure it was worth more to Scott than an extra $20. Well, I shouldn't speak for Scott, but it would be worth more to most restaurant managers I know.

Phew- OK! We didn't expect him to be serving dishes, but it was a pleasant surprise. Glad you got to experience the restaurant, and best wishes on your travels (which I'm following closely, as I'm travelling to upstate NY next week)

[Nathan]

one comment on letting the sommelier know your price range:

a slightly more indirect way to to do it is simply to say: I was thinking about either "Bottle A" or "Bottle B"...one of which should be at the top of your price range and one at the bottom; further, you could even try to pick bottles along your tastes...an experienced sommelier will understand what you're telling him/her.

[scottie]

One of the best dining experiences I've had involved the sommelier. My boyfriend and I chose a very nice place for my birthday. We researched the menu ahead of time and decided we'd probably go with the five-course tasting, with wine pairing. But when the time arrived, we both felt the options on the three-course prix-fixe menu appealed to us more than the tasting menu did. But of course there was no set wine pairing with that.

So we asked the sommelier if it would be possible for her to choose wine to pair with each of our courses, despite the fact that we had each ordered different items. And then we proceeded to have the best wine-pairing experience of our lives thus far. We were blown away by her enthusiasm. She told us that it was rare for her to get a request like that. We got the feeling that her talents were severely under-utilized, and she seemed almost giddy to have the chance to use them.

We got star treatment and very personal service from this woman. She even pulled out a Pouilly-Fume that was not on the list, this one bottle of which she had ordered to try before adding (or not) to the list. That was quite special, and her instincts were correct, because it paired beautifully with the food.

I just wanted to share this happy tale. I will not hesitate to enlist a sommelier's help in the future, even if I just order off the regular menu. A true professional will appreciate the opportunity to share his or her knowledge.

[laurenkusa]

Question about waiting lists: some restaurants do a waiting list for a couple of months. Even if you don't get in, is it helpful to keep calling in regular intervals to see if you can get a table?

Thanks,

Lauren

[ivy]

A few more tips on How to Dine :
1. don't order things that aren't on the menu and don't change ingredients around on the menu to create your own dish. It shows disrespect and stupidity.
2. if you have an allergy or a dislike let the server know before you order.
3. if you have a dislike say it - don't lie and say it's an allergy, it just makes more work for the kitchen (usually requiring all new ingredients to be pulled from the walk-in fridge and prepared with new equipment -whisk, knife, etc. to be certain of no cross-contamination all in the middle of a busy service).
4. if you make a reservation you can't keep call the restaurant and let them know. Booking a table for ten people and not showing up means the restaurant lost 10 seats for the night. Call! You wouldn't believe how few people do.

Thanks, Steven, for writing on this subject, it should be taught in schools.

Cheers,
Ivy Knight

[Anne Paris]

That's definitely an issue, and there are several other issues that can cause servers to give you bad information. . . .The mission, then, is to get the server off script. . . .First, establishing that personal rapport early on creates a situation where the server starts working for you.

I would just like to add my view that obtaining good advice on what to order depends greatly on the CULTURAL CONTEXT in which one is dining.

In the USA, where "McDonaldization" and high-pressure marketing have taken hold, staffs tends to be trained to sell, and push specific items on the menu, regardless of their own views (educated or otherwise!). In France, where serving diners is more of a profession in its own right, waiters expect to be consulted by diners. The waiter considers recommending a dish or wine to suit a specific customer to be among his/her main roles. Likewise, the customer knows his role is to interact with the waiter, first to establish rapport, then to indicate interests and preferences, explore options, and generally "engage" in the scene. The wider French culture generally supports the role of the waiter as an expert, guiding a diner through his/her personal dining experience in a genuine fashion. This is exactly how commercial relationships in France, and in Italy to an extent, are organized. Any self-respecting waiter would find it an insult to be told to recommend a dish that he found to be average, overpriced, or past its prime. Likewise, the diner must show he or she is both interested and committed to an excellent dining experience, making it clear that the restaurant and staff are far more than a backdrop for today's business discussion or birthday dinner.

I perhaps exaggerate a bit but to make the point that CULTURE plays a very important role in the dining experience (we could all write more here . . . ) My French-Italian husband and I noted in Croatia last year that we had to be carefull not to start off with the French approach (all trusting) but once we established our culinary intentions with the staff, the relationships and the quality of our dining experiences actually unfolded very similiarly as those in France. In London, my experience over the past decade has been that while major improvements have taken place, the culinary landscape is much more complicated. Trusting the staff for advice as one would do in France or Italy can bring very mixed results. The main competence one needs in London is good sensemaking skills, combined with recent restaurant recommendations from a book or list, as no specific approach yields the best service, advice or experience.

Finally, (if you are still interested links between wider CULTURE and dining, read on . . .) one can witness the culture of the French expert adviser in action in another context, stopping into FNAC or BHV stores, or at a street food market in Paris on a Saturday morning. You will see something long gone in the USA where marketing has taken away the genuine nature of many commercial relationships, rendering them mere exchanges or transactions. At FNAC it is an interactive performance, with customers asking dozens of questions and receiving detailed advice from knowledgeable staff, then generally relying on that advice to make their purchasing decisions, to good results most of the time. The same experience at street markets has helped me to buy and enjoy foods I had never seen before moving to Europe. Thankfully, restaurants experiences in France remain roughly similar, though one hopes that creeping globalization does not take its toll on the mid-range of this sector anytime soon.

Bon appetit!

Edited by Anne Paris, 21 September 2006 - 07:17 AM.

[joanner]

How can you tell when this is happening? In other words, how can you ensure that a server will tell you what's really good, as opposed to what he's been told to tell you is really good?

In my experience, which comes from both sides of the table, the two are not necessarily mutually exclusive. The fact is that servers have a vested interest in both making the customer happy, and in making the chef happy. Guests pay servers' bills, but chefs can make servers' lives hell! The customer is happy when he receives a meal that pleases his palate. The chef is happy when his food cost is under budget (a very rare occurence), but also when the dishes that he creates please the majority of palates. If the server gets the notion that your palate is not particularly developed, he will try to sell you whatever he has been told to, or whatever is the most expensive. But if your server has an idea that you have a sophisticated palate, he will steer you towards the chef's "babies"-- those dishes that the chef has lost sleep in perfecting, and that might well be gone tomorrow.

I think the best approach for getting the best meal is to develop a sense of trust. On your first visit, you can ask the server which dishes the restaurant specializes in, and order one of those. These dishes are most likely to be "crowd pleasers", but if they are executed well, on the next visit you might ask your server what he would order if he were dining here that night. This is the question guaranteed to deliver the most varied and creative responses. My finest moments as a server were those when a guest trusted me to choose his meal-- I would consult with the chef, and all of us- customer, server, and chef- were always happy at the end.

[joanner]

You should feel totally comfortable ordering whatever the heck the menu allows -- and then some.
In terms of the way servers react to such strategies, if they can't appreciate your creativity that's too bad for them. I talk a lot in my book and public presentations about getting on the good side of the waitstaff, but that's not the only way to enjoy a meal. Sometimes you need to be willing to push your agenda whether a server wants to cooperate or not. Of course good servers will never let their irritation show, but if a bad server gets irritated because you order a lot of appetizers and share then I think you should seize the day and have some fun with the situation.

I definitely agree here that you should feel free to order whatever the restauant offers, in any combination that you please. No restaurant worth its salt would ever refuse a request to have two starters instead of one main course (the profit margin is usually better on aps, anyway). But I feel obligated to add, that if you know you want to share a whole bunch of appetizers, you might be better served in the bar or lounge. First come the simple logisitcs-- most tables in restaurants are small and designed for course-by-course dining, whereas you can always fit something else on the bar. Furthermore, most servers expect that anyone sitting at one of their tables will be ordering a multi-course meal, while most bartenders are happy for whatever food sales might come their way. So, whether it is right or not, you are much more likely to get better service in this instance from the bartender or cocktail server, who feels that you are augmenting his sales, rather than from a table server, who feels that you are diminishing his. Trust me, take a tip from the Spanish here.

Edited by joanner, 22 November 2006 - 02:12 AM.

[Malkavian]

My budget contraints at this point in my life tend to keep me away from what anyone might consider a "fine" restaurant, so my experience there is limisted.

That said, I *am* a regular at the best bar (as far as I'm concerned!) in Charlotte, and I can say with utter confidence that the difference in service once the waitstaff and the manager (who's a homebrewer like myself brownie points) know your name is incredible, at least in a smallish establishment like that.

My group of friends got a great laugh a few weeks ago, when an obviously new waitress treated us like we'd never been there before.

[Fat Guy]

When I do radio appearances on call-in shows, it's almost inevitable that someone will call up and express the view that this sort of dining advice is only applicable to fine-dining restaurants in a few major cities. But, as you've experienced, you can derive great benefits from being a regular at most any restaurant; in any city, suburb, strip, small town or subdivision; at any price point.

[Malkavian]

But, as you've experienced, you can derive great benefits from being a regular at most any restaurant; in any city, suburb, strip, small town or subdivision; at any price point.

Precisely. Back in the area where I grew up (Rutherford County, NC, if you ever find yourself in the western part of the state) there's a little Vietnamese place that I insist on visiting every time I head home to see the family; it's a little place, maybe 5-6 tables, but the chef knows me, comes out to talk, brings myself and whoever I'm with random treats (banana cannonli one day, fried seasoned pork skins another)

The place is tiny, built inside an old Skat's fast food restaurant, and basically a greasy spoon type place with an asian menu, but it's always a great experience.

Edited by Malkavian, 10 December 2006 - 09:36 AM.

[ScoopKW]

I think it boils down to:

1) Always be honest about your wants/needs/desires with your server (as if he or she was your doctor or attorney.)

2) It's easier to care than it is to pretend to care.

3) Nobody cares how much you know, until they know how much you care.

[Nicolai]

Interesting article.

1- Not all Sommeliers are equal in front of the Wine Gods.
In case you know your wine, stick to it.

2- I tailor my food and service expectations according to the restaurant level being visited.

3- Most definitely, being a regular beats all bets.

4- In case you spot a salt and pepper mill at the table, run....

5- If you can put one over the staff, do it. Not all wealthy or culinary aware people always dress nice.
I was once asked at the table whether I knew as to what is the difference between soda and tonic water besides the bubbles. I answered that he would pay the bill if my answer is correct and I would leave a USD100.00 bill if I was wrong.

He did not pick up the bet and he stayed far away from my table. T'was a nice meal though.

Edited by Nicolai, 27 December 2008 - 06:02 AM.

[Splat]

One question - how do you actually request a sommelier's help? Every time my husband or I have a question about the food, wine, or a combo, the waiter answers our questions very confidently, making me think that we shouldn't need the sommelier.

I hate when that happens, because it means I'm not going to be good buddies with the server -- I'm going to have to go around him or her; they shouldn't put you in that position. So, you just have to say, "We'd like to speak to the sommelier about our wine order, please." If the restaurant has a sommelier, you shouldn't feel bad about asking to speak to the sommelier. What the heck else is the sommelier there for? If the server says, "Is there anything I can answer," just smile and repeat yourself, "We'd like to speak to the sommelier about our wine order, please." Don't feel bad about it. Indeed, if you feel the server has been obstructionist, you should mention it to the sommelier.

And how about if we bring our own wine - is it appropriate to ask that someone taste it and offer food recommendations? And who should you ask? The chef, sommelier, waiter?

That's not a situation I've ever come across. BYO isn't all that common in New York, and when I'm traveling elsewhere I don't have access to my wine collection (if you can call it that). So I'm not particularly experienced when it comes to BYO etiquette. Someone else is going to have to chime in here. Is this something that's done? My guess is no, but I don't really know.

I have yet to see a BYO restaurant with a somelier, since they usually don't sell wine. However, if you want to enhance your dining experience, send a glass of your wine to the chef. You might be pleased with what he might send back. We had special dessert on the house after we did it last time...