61 replies to this topic

[Fat Guy]

In June of 2002, eGullet Society member John dropped the bombshell that the frankfurters served at Katz's deli, Gray's Papaya and Papaya King are all the same:

I found out from a friendly Katz's employee and later from the person in charge of private label at Marathon Enterprises (Sabrett) that the dogs used at Katz's are Sabretts with natural casing that come 8 to a lb. They are slow cooked on a griddle. Here in Jersey, I can get 3/4 of a lb (6 dogs) for a little over $3.00. At Katz's they go for around $7.99 per pound. I buy these dogs, as well as Best's from Newark, and other brands from around the country (via mail order) and grill them. If you want more info on this, see the thread on the Definitive New York Hot Dog. Papaya King and Gray's use the same dog (Sabrett's natural casing) but these are smaller, coming 10 to a lb. My contact at Marathon says that these places; Papaya King in particular, like to hype their dog as being made especially for them with special imported spices and casings. This is an exaggeration. The spices and casings may be imported, but the dogs are the standard Sabretts and not made special.

http://forums.egulle...indpost&p=47482

It was fun to be able to tell people that. It was fun for about three years, until Ed Levine wrote a piece for the New York Times in May of 2005 and brought the same information to a larger audience:

YOU know those hot dogs that you know and love, and can't wait to eat this time of year? The ones served at Katz's Delicatessen, Gray's Papaya, Papaya King, the legendary Dominick's truck in Queens and the best "dirty water dog" carts?

They're all the same dog, manufactured by Marathon Enterprises, of East Rutherford, N.J., the parent company of Sabrett.

http://travel2.nytim...045caad&ei=5070

Now, the hot dog identity thing is relatively common knowledge (among those who care about such things).

This past weekend in the Times Magazine, the Lee Brothers punctured another New York City myth of differentiation when they pointed out that pretty much all the top places are getting their smoked salmon from the same supplier:

If you've ever taken sides in a debate over which New York purveyor has the best smoked salmon, you might be surprised to learn that Zabar's, Citarella, Balducci's, Costco and Wegmans — in fact most grocers on the East and West Coasts, in the Midwest and even a few in Puerto Rico — buy their fish in large part from the same smokehouse: Acme Smoked Fish.

http://www.nytimes.c...ine/14food.html

So . . . what else can we debunk? I'll start by resurrecting a point that has been made in eG Forums discussions a few times in the past:

It's commonly believed that many of the gourmet markets in New York make their own mozzarella. Well, in a way they do. But as far as I know nobody is taking milk and turning it into cheese. Rather, they're buying manufactured cheese curds, heating the product and molding it into balls of mozzarella. It's the equivalent, conceptually, of buying pre-made dough and baking it into loaves of bread (or pizza). Not exactly "make their own." And, to top it all off, in every instance where I've been able to observe the raw product (not many, but I expect a little investigation could reveal a widespread practice), the curds come from . . . Polly-O. That's right, Polly-O Gold Curd. Google it and weep.

Anybody else?

[slkinsey]

My friend and fellow eGullet member windelse has had a longstanding theory that there is a secret network of pipes under Manhattan pumping the same crappy "cold sesame noodles" to 90% of the Chinese restaurants in the City.

[mascarpone]

Ugh. I will never eat cold sesame noodles again.

[emsny]

And why do Polly-O curds come in 43-pound boxes? Not 40, not 45, not even 44 (which is near as damn to 20kg), but 43?

That apart, I'm not too bothered by this, because much of the pleasure of eating fresh mozzarella is preserved with a ball freshly formed from curd, whether Polly-O's or anyone else's.

I believe that many of the cheese straws repackaged or sold in bulk around town come from the company known as John Wm Macy, which also sells in their own packaging. Again, a good product.

[Fat Guy]

I'm not sure I agree that fresh mozzarella based on Polly-O curds is such a fantastic product. Certainly it's better than Polly-O supermarket-refrigerator-section mozzarella. But I think the perceived freshness and texture can sometimes misdirect us from the reality that this stuff has little flavor compared to mozzarella di bufala. I think it's a stage in local taste evolution, like crummy fake balsamic vinegar was (and still is) a stage along the way to good balsamico. And even with cow's milk mozzarella I wonder if, made from actual farm fresh milk instead of the Polly-O curd product, there might be some improvement.

[wesza]

Acme is one of the finest smokehouses in the NYC area, I understand that almost all major upscale places feature their products its rarely exclusively.

Generally other smokers are favored for certain specialties that may be similar in quality but are finessed to provide different nuances in smoking and curing.

The only product that seemed to be universally supplied to almost every Deli type establishment in the NYC area for over 50 + years was "Coleslaw", and "Potato Salad", delivered in 30 pound containers to Deli's, Caterers, Restaurants, Supermarkets several times weekly. I found it amazingly consistent year round and enjoyed the product. It was far superior to the same items now being mass produced and sold by super markets deli counters with a universally blah taste everywhere in the states.

Wonder if it's still being provided in NYC ? I had some shipped with my final order from the 2nd Avenue Deli prior to closing and it tasted as I remembered.

There used to be a Potato supplier in Hunts Point market who started during the period Baked Potato's were so popular. Sorting them by size into Boxes after wrapping them in Foil with a Gold Foil being offered for the top of the line Potatoes. It didn't take long until this was common all over the country.

I thought that the foil wrapped potatoes tasted more steamed then baked. I haven't seen any being served that way during the last few years.

Many Deli's utilized a service that would keep replenishing their barrels of Pickles according to volume and space regularly so the they were always able to offer customers Pickles, Sour, 1/2 Sour or anyway they wanted. Some Deli's were so busy that they had over 20 large wooden Pickle Barrels in their Basements constantly being rotated.

During the 1960's several Fresh Herb Growers also started service for many Restaurants and some Green Grocers a constant supply of Fresh Herbs delivered on a daily basis.

There used to be only 2 suppliers of fresh noodles that delivered Lo Mein, Won Ton Skins and other noodles to the majority of Chinese Restaurants in the NYC area but I understand currently that they are more suppliers with better varieties.

The Breads and Rolls served in NYC Restaurants were generally provided by only a handful of Bakeries that provided daily deliveries and rotated the stock to assure freshness by accepting for credit all items not sold. This even included Baked Breads that were customized for the customer.

Irwin

[emsny]

Of course, Fat Guy is surely right about mozzarella made from farm-fresh milk. But I doubt that you'd run into that very often, even in Italy. We'll be there in July and will report back. But the comparison with buffalo-milk mozz is not really to the point: that's a different product with a different flavor. Indeed, in parts of Italy where they care about these things they use a different term altogether for cow-milk mozz: "fior di latte".

Tricky stuff, mozzarella; very fussy about pH and what not. I know a restaurant chef who had planned to make mozz from scratch and who tried all kinds of milks - homogenized, unhomogenized, you name it (even tried bootleg raw milk). Eventually, the only practical solution (short, presumably, of hiring a full-time dairyman/dairymaid - like Le Cirque's creme brulee guy [cf today's NY Times story]) was to buy . . . Polly-O curds.

By the way, Fat Guy, I was going to say, "Hey, I never said it was such a 'fantastic product'". But the fact is that, when it's still around blood temperature and oozing, it IS pretty fantastic irrespective of the provenance of the curd from which it is made.

[sammy]

But so what? Plenty of steakhouses buy meat from the same suppliers but end up with different quality meat.

Several restaurants buy fish from Browne Trading but that doesn't mean they end up with the same quality fish.

Heck, I've bought fish from Browne Trading but I don't delude myself into thinking that my tuna is necessarily the same as the tuna served at Le Bernardin.

Edited by sammy, 17 May 2006 - 03:18 PM.

[Fat Guy]

In these cases, however, it seems we're talking about packaged, mass-produced products that are identical.

[sammy]

The only product that seemed to be universally supplied to almost every Deli type establishment in the NYC area for over 50 + years was "Coleslaw", and "Potato Salad", delivered in 30 pound containers to Deli's, Caterers, Restaurants, Supermarkets several times weekly. I found it amazingly consistent year round and enjoyed the product. It was far superior to the same items now being mass produced and sold by super markets deli counters with a universally blah taste everywhere in the states.

I'm pretty sure the company was Blue Ridge Farms.

Edited by sammy, 17 May 2006 - 03:23 PM.

[sammy]

In these cases, however, it seems we're talking about packaged, mass-produced products that are identical.

How can any two fish be identical?

Even within Barney Greengrass or Zabar's, you can tell the difference in fat content from one fish to another.

[emsny]

Pastry doughs. I would not be surprised to learn that most of the city's phyllo compositions and strudels were made from that ubiquitous brand of phyllo dough (is it Athens? Apollo?) - which does indeed come in a slightly thicker version, suitable for strudel. And I should imagine that Dufour supplies an awful lot of the puff pastry used in up-scale food service kitchens. Off topic: next time you're in France, check the garbage outside a neighborhood patisserie (not the top-quality ones, obviously). You will find empty boxes that once contained things that will amaze you, such as instant choux-pastry powder.

[TrishCT]

I think there are some "bakery" cookies that fit this bill. When I was in college I used to work at the now defunct Brookline Bakery in Mass. We used to get regular shipments of "fancy" cookies that we sold for a ridiculously high price per pound to the consumer. One day I checked the plastic wrapper they come in and there was something on it saying the cookies were made in New Jersey.

I wonder if these are the ones I have seen at many a Connecticut and New York bakery?

Cookie description: Small in size, many varieties such as a chocolatey filled round florentine, shaped like a pretzel with chocolate filling, round with rasperry and sliced almonds on the outside, rainbow layers--pink, green, yellow covered on top in a thin chocolatey coating, short pirouttes (like Pepperidge Farm) covered in a chocolatey coating or white coating, very small gingerbread men, raspberry pockets--pale yellow cookie shaped like a figure 8 danish with little dabs of rasberry jam on top and bottom.

These cookies all have one thing in common--they look pretty and have virtually NO flavor.

They come packed in long, narrow cardboard trays and are easy to pop right in the display case. Often they are sold for the same ridiculously high per pound rate as a baker's own storemade cookies.

Fess up bakery owners....where do you get these cookies?

[Fat Guy]

Even within Barney Greengrass or Zabar's, you can tell the difference in fat content from one fish to another.

Overall they are getting from the same pool, without any sort of differentiation such as Prime v. Choice. As the article states, "A pound of farm-raised Atlantic salmon from Norway smoked on Gem Street and sliced to order costs $30 at Zabar's on the Upper West Side and $35 just six blocks away at Barney Greengrass — a statistic that may say more about the role of marketing in the food industry than taste." This is not analogous to Peter Luger taking the best steaks from the same supplier used by other steakhouses, nor is it analogous to Browne Trading selling better fish to better paying or longer standing clients.

[sammy]

Even within Barney Greengrass or Zabar's, you can tell the difference in fat content from one fish to another.

Overall they are getting from the same pool, without any sort of differentiation such as Prime v. Choice. As the article states, "A pound of farm-raised Atlantic salmon from Norway smoked on Gem Street and sliced to order costs $30 at Zabar's on the Upper West Side and $35 just six blocks away at Barney Greengrass — a statistic that may say more about the role of marketing in the food industry than taste." This is not analogous to Peter Luger taking the best steaks from the same supplier used by other steakhouses, nor is it analogous to Browne Trading selling better fish to better paying or longer standing clients.

I read what you wrote and read what the article said but I don't see where it says that the fish is necessarily of the same quality.

You can just as easily subsitute "a side of rib of Prime midwestern beef is butchered at Briaggia & Spittler and sold as rib steaks at The Capital Grill for $38 and The Strip House for $44" but that doesn't mean one steak isn't superior to the other.

Both steaks are from the same pool, from cattle in the midwest, maybe even from the same rancher, they are graded prime, butchered at the same place but still not necessarily the same quality.

And I'll add that just because there isn't a grading system for fish (at least of what I'm aware of other than grades for tuna for sushi) doesn't mean there isn't differentiation.

Edited by sammy, 17 May 2006 - 03:43 PM.

[Fat Guy]

The quoted language clearly says we're talking about the same product being sold at different prices, not different levels of quality sold at different prices.

[H. du Bois]

My friend and fellow eGullet member windelse has had a longstanding theory that there is a secret network of pipes under Manhattan pumping the same crappy "cold sesame noodles" to 90% of the Chinese restaurants in the City.

I've always been of the opinion that there's one big kitchen deep in the bowels of the city from which all Greek diner food comes. But that's probably due to the fact that they all buy that horrific cole slaw (mentioned above) from the same source.

[sammy]

The quoted language clearly says we're talking about the same product being sold at different prices, not different levels of quality sold at different prices.

"A pound of farm-raised Atlantic salmon from Norway smoked on Gem Street and sliced to order costs $30 at Zabar's on the Upper West Side and $35 just six blocks away at Barney Greengrass — a statistic that may say more about the role of marketing in the food industry than taste."

Are you saying that every pound of farm raised Atlantic Salmon from Norway is the same?

[Fat Guy]

Sammy, you know that's not what I'm saying, and more importantly it's not what the article says. However, since you're clinging to this point so strongly I'll simply note my complete disagreement with your argument and move on.

[rooftop1000]

I think there are some "bakery" cookies that fit this bill.  When I was in college I used to work at the now defunct Brookline Bakery in Mass.  We used to get regular shipments of "fancy" cookies that we sold for a ridiculously high price per pound to the consumer.  One day I checked the plastic wrapper they come in and there was something on it saying the cookies were made in New Jersey.

I wonder if these are the ones I have seen at many a Connecticut and New York bakery?

Cookie description:  Small in size, many varieties such as a chocolatey filled round florentine, shaped like a pretzel with chocolate filling, round with rasperry and sliced almonds on the outside, rainbow layers--pink, green, yellow covered on top in a thin chocolatey coating, short pirouttes (like Pepperidge Farm) covered in a chocolatey coating or white coating, very small gingerbread men, raspberry pockets--pale yellow cookie shaped like a figure 8 danish with little dabs of rasberry jam on top and bottom.

These cookies all have one thing in common--they look pretty and have virtually NO flavor.

They come packed in long, narrow cardboard trays and are easy to pop right in the display case. Often they are sold for the same ridiculously high per pound rate as a baker's own storemade cookies.

Fess up bakery owners....where do you get these cookies?

There are commercial bakeries for butter cookies and cannoli shells in Saddlebrook...Maria's and Secaucus maybe for Leonetti's



tracey

Edited by rooftop1000, 17 May 2006 - 07:07 PM.

[Todd36]

The NYT article on smoked salmon seemed to be carefully written, with phrases such as "much of the salmon sold by xxx comes from yyyy" and "store xxx will only buy salmon from country z while store yyy never will." My conclusion was that they may not all be selling the same fish, even though the supplier may be the same. The stuff Fairway sells does not seem similar to Zabar's or Barney Greenglass, although the later two seem similar and could be the same.

[SuzySushi]

I've always been of the opinion that there's one big kitchen deep in the bowels of the city from which all Greek diner food comes.

I thought it was common knowledge that the Indian restaurants that used to be on East 6th Street (are they still there?) sometimes shared kitchens and food -- several were owned by members of the same extended family and if one restaurant ran out of a dish, they'd send someone down the street to get it from another. No kidding.

[Dryden]

Of course, a big part of the quality of smoked salmon has to do with the skill of the person slicing it - and in that regard, places like Zabar's and Barney Greengrass differ quite a lot from some of the other places on that list.

But anyone who buys nova, or lox, or sturgeon, or any smoked fish sliced to order without trying some from the actual fish it's being sliced off of deserves whatever they get.

[Fat Guy]

Dryden, the Lee brothers (who wrote the piece) and Buzz Billik (Acme's director of business development) agree with you -- the main point the article makes is that all the fish is the same but the best places handle it differently.

Which brings us back to the question, Which purveyor has the best smoked salmon? It's the one that takes the greatest care of the fish.

"We sell plenty of salmon to retailers who don't really have the experience to do it justice," Billik said. "There are about 10 or 12 quality outlets I'd be happy to shop in every day. Even though it's the same salmon, these 12 merchants are going to handle and present the product differently."

Todd36, I don't see those quotations or anything like them in the article. Can you be more specific?

[Jason Perlow]

Gyro Meat at greek restaurants and pizza joints. Pretty much all comes from Krinos Foods in Queens.

[Dryden]

Gyro Meat at greek restaurants and pizza joints. Pretty much all comes from Krinos Foods in Queens.

But in those cases, it's the universal lack of quality, or handling, that gives gyros that distinctly delicious flavoring...

[Fat Guy]

Yeah, the product is specifically called Gyrokones, from Kronos. It's a lovely truncated cone of "savory layers of select beef and lamb, perfectly seasoned with zesty spices, and formed into a kone that 'turns around' and cooks on a flame broiler. Juicy hot slices are cut off the kone and placed on Pita bread to make an authentic Greek sandwich."

http://www.kronospro.../prod_cones.htm

[emsny]

From the How-To section of the Kronos web site cited by Fat Guy:

"D. DO NOT ABUSE MEAT WHILE SLICING"

[Sneakeater]

They must've read Portnoy's Complaint.

[wesza]

I'm not sure I agree that fresh mozzarella based on Polly-O curds is such a fantastic product. Certainly it's better than Polly-O supermarket-refrigerator-section mozzarella. But I think the perceived freshness and texture can sometimes misdirect us from the reality that this stuff has little flavor compared to mozzarella di bufala. I think it's a stage in local taste evolution, like crummy fake balsamic vinegar was (and still is) a stage along the way to good balsamico. And even with cow's milk mozzarella I wonder if, made from actual farm fresh milk instead of the Polly-O curd product, there might be some improvement.

I've been getting both fresh and smoked "Mozzarella" for well over 20 + years originally made by Joe Aiello and still being made by his successor from who has maintained the quality:

Joe's Dairy Fresh Mozzarella
156 Sullivan Street
Between Houston & Prince

During the last few years if I had no one coming from NYC I have purchased it from:

Rob Kaufelt's, "Murray's Cheese " via the Internet.

I imagine Rob may be able to order some superior "Curds" if requested.

The Cheese is much better tasting then any other Mozzarella I have even brought domestically. The authentic, "Buffalo Mozzarella" available from "Murray's Cheese" is much better then any I have enjoyed outside of Italy.

I just received "Smoked Gaspe Salmon" and "Kippered Salmon" from Russ & Daughters and it's better then a recent delivery from "Marks" in London.

Irwin (enjoy)