566 replies to this topic

[FoodMan]

Boiling 6 quarts in an 8 quart pot is pushing it a little bit. You're likely to experience a bit of boil-over when the foam forms as you add the extract. As to the more general question of whether a concentrated boil will work, yes, it will. I generally brew batches of about 5 gallons, and boil about half of it. Boiling concentrated wort will result in a slightly darker beer, as the heat can cause some caramelization, and the concentration means that more sugar will be in the hot spots where it occurs, hence more darkening. So if you are looking for bright yellow beer, doing a full boil is important.

Welcome all our new members. We hope to see more of you on the Forums.

Thanks Matty for this idea (why didn't I think of that?)! I will probably do that as well rather than buying a new stockpot right off the bat. Besides, I like dark beer .

Chris, what is the best way to transfer the boiled cooled (cooled to a little over the ideal temp of course) liquid to the fermenting jar/container. I was thinking about using a sterilized measuring cup for most of the volume and then to just pour the rest of it once the pot is easy to pick up and manage. Is that good?

[cdh]

If you're not planning on fermenting in your boiling pot, then have no compunctions about just pouring the boiled wort into your sanitized fermentation vessel... see below for the fuller plans for your situation. I realized I should note that you want to pour gently to avoid splashing, as oxidation is a long term problem for beer flavor stability, and splashy pouring leads to sticky floors and clothes and such. The latter is more likely to present a problem in a batch this small, but you should be aware of the former.

Elie, for your situation, we'll engage in a little beer engineering for you.

You want to boil your hops in wort at 1.068, as that is the density the recipe is calculated for. To achieve that with your pot, add half the extract at the beginning of the one gallon boil with the first hop bag. Then a little after the 10 minute mark, when you add the second hop bag, add the other half of the extract. That way your bittering hops boiled in wort of the right density so their effectiveness will be preserved... and you'll get the right concentration when you add the second gallon of water to the concentrated wort before you start cooling it. You'll get a head start on the cooling if you put the additional gallon into your fermentation vessel, and then just dump the concentrated wort in on top... and then put the fermentation vessel into the ice water in the sink to cool.

This does run the risk of making a slightly sweeter beer than the unconcentrated method, since the caramelization affects flavor as well as color, and the flavor hops will not contribute much bitterness at all since they're boiling in a much denser wort. You might consider upping the bittering hops to .5 oz and splitting the flavor and aroma into .25 oz. Or you could follow the recipe and tell us what happened.

Edited by cdh, 21 April 2006 - 05:08 AM.

[cdh]

Having been inspired by this course to get into home brewing I have been looking/shopping around online for the past few days for ingredients and toys (I can't help but buy toys whenever I find a new hobby:-)

Do tell.. what goodies have you picked up?

The one question I had about the beginners' batch you are using in the course of 2 gallons.  Your recipe calls for 3lbs of DME.  When I see the notes for DME in the online stores it says that that amount is enough for a 5 gallon batch (in fact one site says to use 1-3lbs for a 5 gallon batch).  Will the 2 gallon batch you are demo'ing in the course be heavy or stronger?

I see that you later discovered that 3 lbs for 2 gallons is not crazy brewing. This first recipe was designed for a little cognitive dissonance. It is designed to look light yellow like common beers, but was designed to have more flavor and more power than common beers. It is designed to look familiar but taste radically different... and hopefully better.

BTW I am really enjoying reading the classes, thanks for taking the time to make it happen.  I have learned a lot already and was inspired to read some other brewing forums and it seems very accessible, but also something that I can buy a lot of toys if I want.  I already roast my own espresso and enjoy things I can tweak and experiment with.

I've played with coffee roasting too... but the air roasters just make too bright a coffee for my tastes. I've been meaning to try pan roasting the beans to see if a solid bed makes better homeroast than a fluid bed. Pop over to the homeroasting threads in the coffee forum to tell us about your successes.

[FoodMan]

If you're not planning on fermenting in your boiling pot, then have no compunctions about just pouring the boiled wort into your sanitized fermentation vessel... see below for the fuller plans for your situation.

Elie, for your situation, we'll engage in a little beer engineering for you. 

You want to boil your hops in wort at 1.068, as that is the density the recipe is calculated for. To achieve that with your pot, add half the extract at the beginning of the one gallon boil with the first hop bag.  Then a little after the 10 minute mark, when you add the second hop bag, add the other half of the extract.  That way your bittering hops boiled in wort of the right density so their effectiveness will be preserved... and you'll get the right concentration when you add the second gallon of water to the concentrated wort before you start cooling it.  You'll get a head start on the cooling if you put the additional gallon into your fermentation vessel, and then just dump the concentrated wort in on top... and then put the fermentation vessel into the ice water in the sink to cool.

This does run the risk of making a slightly sweeter beer than the unconcentrated method, since the caramelization affects flavor as well as color, and the flavor hops will not contribute much bitterness at all since they're boiling in a much denser wort.  You might consider upping the bittering hops to .5 oz and splitting the flavor and aroma into .25 oz.  Or you could follow the recipe and tell us what happened.

Chris, Do you mean the 50 minute mark is when I add the rest of the Malt extract? That ia when the second hop bag is added, not at 10 minutes.

The water is almost boiling so hopefully u are viewing this....

[cdh]

Yes, I mean 10 minutes remaining in the countdown. After 50 minutes of boiling.

[FoodMan]

Yes, I mean 10 minutes remaining in the countdown.  After 50 minutes of boiling.

Thanks for the very speedy reply!

[cdh]

So, how did it go? Smoothly, I hope?

[FoodMan]

So, how did it go?  Smoothly, I hope?

more or less. I did have a minor overflow in the beginning of the boil, but nothing major maybe about 1/2 a cup that I replaced promptly. It did take much longer to cool down than I expected even in an ice water bath. My fermenting vessel is a large glass jar that I use to make flavored liqours, and is resting in a dark closet with a clean cheese cloth covering the mouth with a rubberband. So it is easy for me to see how everything looks. I think it is working just fine, the wort smells very good and I noticed this morning that there is already a thin layer of foam forming on the surface. That is a good sign, right?

I cannot wait to see how it comes out, fingers crossed....

[cdh]

That is sounding very good indeed. The slow cooling may have something to do with the glass... it transfers heat much less well than metal. Further considering such things, I'm just going to reiterate my personal dislike of glass in the brewing process. Glass is fickle and dangerous stuff that really doesn't like rapid temperature changes.

Glass should be avoided if you can, especially in the context of hot liquids. If you're going to age beer for months, then a glass secondary fermentor might be a reasonable piece of equipment to use to transfer the room temperature beer from the primary into... but as a primary, I'm afraid of glass. It is just too likely to decide it didn't like something you did and crack. Then your beer drains away and you might cut yourself.

As to the visual you're getting, yup, a foam on top is exactly what you want to see.

Edited by cdh, 21 April 2006 - 10:07 AM.

[cdh]

I want to make a quick calendar announcement... a last minute business event is taking me away to Austin, Texas for Monday through Wednesday of next week, so those brewing then will be on your own until Thursday. Questions will get answered eventually, but not necessarily speedily.

[Matty]

I've just finished.

I had an overflow as well - I neglected to observe your word 'sprinkle' and rather 'tipped' the malt in - causing quite a big one. I estimated about 300ml which I replaced with fresh boiled water.

Another minor hiccup as well - I dabbed my balloon whisk in just as I realised it wasn't sanitised. It was clean and stainless steel though, so I'm crossing my fingers I haven't goofed there.

I tipped everything into a fermenting bin for the cool, and it cooled very quickly - it had gone down to nearly 60 by the time I could get the yeast in. I'm guessing that isn't too much of a problem though.

I have loosely covered with the lid the bin came with - OK?

It was good fun and time will tell. Looking forward to doing another boil - I'll know what to do different next time.

Cheers,
Matt

[cdh]

I've just finished.

I had an overflow as well - I neglected to observe your word 'sprinkle' and rather 'tipped' the malt in - causing quite a big one. I estimated about 300ml which I replaced with fresh boiled water.

Not too awful, so long as you cleaned it up before it caramelized and hardened onto your stovetop.

Another minor hiccup as well - I dabbed my balloon whisk in just as I realised it wasn't sanitised. It was clean and stainless steel though, so I'm crossing my fingers I haven't goofed there.

Fingers crossed. If any funky flavors happen, you know where they came from.

I tipped everything into a fermenting bin for the cool, and it cooled very quickly - it had gone down to nearly 60 by the time I could get the yeast in. I'm guessing that isn't too much of a problem though.

I have loosely covered with the lid the bin came with - OK?

60 would be just fine... low temperatures will slow the yeast down a little, but high temperatures will kill them. Always better to err on the cooler side.

A lid loosely on top should be alright... it will let the CO2 out and keep airborne stuff from contaminating your beer.

It was good fun and time will tell. Looking forward to doing another boil - I'll know what to do different next time.

Cheers,
Matt

Glad that you enjoyed it. Now the hard part is ahead, waiting for the yeast to do their job.

Edited by cdh, 22 April 2006 - 02:00 PM.

[ScoopKW]

I read the guide -- fairly solid information.

Some additions from a commercial brewer:

1) Yeast.

Yeast is the most important ingredient in beer. Brewers make wort (unfermented barley sugar water with hops). Yeast makes beer. If you're serious about beer, try this experiment -- make a five gallon batch, and ferment in five one-gallon containers. Use five different yeasts. You'll end up with five markedly different beers.

Dry yeast, particularly the Safale brand mentioned in the guide, is not that good. All yeast powders contain some bacteria and wild yeasts. So long as you get liquid yeast from a high volume brewing supply store, liquids are always better than dry. Besides, you can match the single-strain yeast to your beer style. This will make a huge difference in beer quality.

EDIT: Temperature control cannot be stressed highly enough. I ferment most of my beers "cold" -- 60f for an ale, 45f for lagers. My only exception is Belgian trappist ales and dubbels, which I ferment at 70f. Low-temp fermentation means a cleaner taste. Higher fermentation temps lead to higher ester production, which leads to more flavor notes. If you want a clean, dry beer, ferment as cold as the yeast will stand. (Wyeast 1056 is ideal for clean, crisp ales. Ferment it at 55f.)

2) Water

Beer is (usually) more than 90% water. If you're using city water, your quality may suffer -- particularly if chloromines are added or if the water is particularly soft. (If it's soft, make stouts.)

Volumes have been written about adjusting water -- both PH and mineral hardness. Your local brewing supply shop may have tips on how to manage your city's water. If you use well water, you may want to have the water analyzed. It'll cost about $50, but it's well worth the cost if you plan to make more than 50 gallons per year.

3) Malt Extract.

I never, ever, ever, have brewed with extract. I started out as a home brewer with barley. It's more expensive and time consuming this way, but that rich, creamy head and full body makes it all worth the effort.

Cracking and mashing barley takes time, effort and equipment. If there is any interest, I'll post how to make a mash tun using a picnic cooler and about $10 worth of copper pipe. You'll also need a grain mill, which will run $100 or so.

4) Why bottle when kegging is less expensive and more repeatable?

Just wait 'til you overprime a batch and end up with glass grenades blowing up in your basement -- you'll end up kegging eventually, so you may as well START with kegs.

Here's a place to start: http://morebeer.com/...roduct_id=18190

You can also filter the yeast out of your beer using 2 kegs and a filter: http://morebeer.com/...roduct_id=16769

If anyone has specific questions, PM me, and I'll either PM back or drop an answer here.

Yours,

ScoopKW
www.kellyskeywest.com
Key West, Florida

Edited by ScoopKW, 22 April 2006 - 05:03 PM.

[cdh]

Scoop-

Thanks for a pro's eye view. Mayhaw Man (aka Brooks), who used to brew for Abita, agreed with you up the thread about the liquid yeast. I am still not sold on the conventional wisdom that all liquid yeast is superior to all dry yeast. There are many reports of very happy brewers using Fermentis' products, Safale amongst them. US-56 is reported again and again to be just as good as Wyeast 1056 or its White Labs counterparts. What specific information can you use to convince me that you're right?

I've got my own experience brewing my last 5 batches with T-58, S-33, Nottingham and Windsor, and they all turned out just fine. None of them infected, none of them off flavored. The T-58 did something weird when I split half the batch into a keg and left the other half on the lees for another couple of weeks, but that isn't a sign that the yeast was bad, since the kegged beer was great. I know that S-04 is the Whitbread yeast, and I've never, ever, enjoyed Whitbread beers, so I'm not the person to talk to about the relative merits of that yeast.

The selling point for liquid yeast, in my opinion, is the variety available. There are a few dry yeasts, and a load of liquid ones. I am a regular user of 3944 for my witbiers, and I always have something fermented with 1214 around. But dry yeasts are just easier to handle than the liquid ones, you don't have to worry about a starter, you don't have to fiddle with smack packs, you just tear and pour.

Edited by cdh, 22 April 2006 - 06:26 PM.

[ScoopKW]

Scoop-

What specific information can you use to convince me that you're right?

But dry yeasts are just easier to handle than the liquid ones, you don't have to worry about a starter, you don't have to fiddle with smack packs, you just tear and pour.

Sure, dry yeast is easy. But the new "XL" smack packs are perfect for a 5-gallon batch, and only require that you pop that bubble when starting the mash -- all will be ready by pitching time. In a pinch, I have pitched 2 XL packs in a 200-gallon batch without problems. It's all about wort oxygenation.

As far as dry yeast quality, I can only speak for the 200-gallon batches that I make. The brewer I replaced used Safale S-04 and his beer lasted *maybe* a week. Then it started to go south quickly -- occasionally, wild yeast reared its ugly head, and Kelly's ended up with a batch that tasted like Chloroseptic. (Chlorophenols are common problems with wild yeast.) I can keep my beers happy for a month or longer with little falloff in quality.

Can you get good, even excellent results with dry yeast? Sure.

But google "dry yeast contamination" and you'll see there are a lot of problem dry yeasts out there.

Regards,

ScoopKW

[cdh]

But google "dry yeast contamination" and you'll see there are a lot of problem dry yeasts out there.

Well, how old are most of those reports... the first few results that Google presents are vintage 1993. Did your predecessor use the bricks, or the sachets? I could see the bricks presenting contamination issues if they weren't used all at once... But the sachets and the bricks are very different things.

I'd always thought the Chloraseptic flavor was an artifact of chlorinated water, not bad yeast... and Band-Aid flavor comes from Brett., which would be quite a surprise in a dry yeast sachet... but one I've never heard a report of happening.

Edited by cdh, 22 April 2006 - 06:09 PM.

[ScoopKW]

But google "dry yeast contamination" and you'll see there are a lot of problem dry yeasts out there.

Well, how old are most of those reports... the first few results that Google presents are vintage 1993. Did your predecessor use the bricks, or the sachets? I could see the bricks presenting contamination issues if they weren't used all at once... But the sachets and the bricks are very different things.

I'd always thought the Chloraseptic flavor was an artifact of chlorinated water, not bad yeast... and Band-Aid flavor comes from Brett., which would be quite a surprise in a dry yeast sachet... but one I've never heard a report of that happening.

The brewery used one brick per batch. You should have seen the look on the owner's face when I tossed 20 pounds worth of bricks into the trash when I started.

Here's a "Wizard" report on phenolics: http://byo.com/mrwizard/743.html

You can find similar stuff in George Fix's "Principles of Brewing Science," and the MBAA's "The Practical Brewer."

I also recommend: Brewing: Science and Practice by Dennis Briggs; Designing Great Beers by Ray Daniels; and Hardwick's "Handbook of Brewing."

The Ray Daniels one is affordable. I'd probably spend the money on a brew tower rather than buy the other two, however. (I was lucky enough to have them given to me.)


Regards,

ScoopKW

[cdh]

Here's a "Wizard" report on phenolics: http://byo.com/mrwizard/743.html

You can find similar stuff in George Fix's "Principles of Brewing Science," and the MBAA's "The Practical Brewer."

Indeed... those resources say that yeast produces the phenolic compounds... and you need the chlorine in the water to make them react and form Anbesol flavored beer.

All of this is going over the heads of the intended audience here, though. This course is for folks who have never brewed before, who don't know if they want to drop hundreds of dollars on the hobby, but are still interested in seeing what they can make. While having a stainless conical brew sculpture would be incredibly cool, I don't have the thousands of dollars to drop on that kind of toy... The aim of this course is to prove to the world that you can make fine beer without one.

I'm editing to add a quick reference to an interesting article on yeast from the same source as Scoop's reference... For those who want to learn more about yeasty considerations, have a look at http://byo.com/feature/1098.html.

Edited by cdh, 23 April 2006 - 07:36 AM.

[FoodMan]

I'm almost a week into fermentation and here is how my wort looks like



That looks ok, right? the temperature where this is sitting is a little higher than the ideal, probably around 75-78F. Hopefully that is not too high. Unfortunatly it will be very difficult for me to actually get it an lower without investing in a fermentation chamber or something.

Kegging? Maybe it is just me (very very new at this...) but I think bottles for 3-5 gallon batches are just more appealing.

[Rombot]

Thanks for the welcome.

Well I have fallen behind a little but I have finally started my brew. I think (I hope) it went ok, day 2 of fermentation and there is a layer of stuff on top of the wart and it is giving off a nice smell (apple and cinnamon), I hope that is good.

I actually adjusted everything for metric units and as my malt came in kilo bags, the simplest conversion was to do a double batch using 3kg (6.6 pounds) of malt and then adding a little more of everything, this also had the added benefit of producing more beer :). I must say I did enjoy using a huge pot with all four gas burners on the stove going at full blast, that got it to a really good boil.

Now a few questions...Is there a rough rule in regards to ratios of ingredients for most beers? Can the ratio of ingredients of the recipe we have just done and the others to follow be applied to other recipes of your own creation?

Ok then goodluck all, will keep you updated and hopefully this will be a success.

Rom

[cdh]

I'm back from my jaunt to TX, and it's good to see reports of progress.

Elie, your picture looks just right. The layer of foam on top is just what you should be seeing. That means that your yeast are getting enthusiastic in there and doing their job. Your beer will appear much lighter when the yeast get done and drop out of suspension. Much of the opacity of your beer is the trillions of yeast cells still hopping from sugar molecule to sugar molecule.

Rombot, sounds like you're on the right path too. As to proportions, that really depends on the style of beer you're trying to brew. To avoid the metric conversion, it is the specific gravity of the wort that is important... This is a 1.068 beer, which is going to be somewhat richer and stronger than most mass market commercial beers. There is a wide variety of styles out there, and some of them are meant to be stronger than this, and many are meant to be weaker. See here for examples.

[FoodMan]

I'm back from my jaunt to TX, and it's good to see reports of progress. 

Elie, your picture looks just right.  The layer of foam on top is just what you should be seeing.  That means that your yeast are getting enthusiastic in there and doing their job.  Your beer will appear much lighter when the yeast get done and drop out of suspension.  Much of the opacity of your beer is the trillions of yeast cells still hopping from sugar molecule to sugar molecule.

Glad to hear that. There something bugging me though. Why aren't we worried about contamination of the fermenting beer? I mean the cheese cloth allows air in. Isn't that why brewers use airlocks for the fermentation vessel?

[cdh]

Glad to hear that. There something bugging me though. Why aren't we worried about contamination of the fermenting beer? I mean the cheese cloth allows air in. Isn't that why brewers use airlocks for the fermentation vessel?

We're not worried about contamination because the dish towel should be impenetrable to all of the little airborne beasties out there. They are a lot bigger than air molecules. You might be more reasonably concerned about oxidation, however. The reason for the airlock is to keep oxygen away from the beer as much as to keep beasties out. Oxygen is not beer's best friend, and can shorten the life of a beer. However, while the yeast are doing their job in there, they are making a blanket of CO2 that rises from the beer and keeps the oxygen away.

Edited by cdh, 27 April 2006 - 10:15 AM.

[jsolomon]

Another reason we aren't as worried about contamination of the fermenting beer is that the pH levels (acidic) that yeast produce, as well as the ethanol are not particularly microbe-friendly. So, once you are past the first few hours, where your yeast are setting up shop, there is a low chance of infection. It's when you have a new, sterile wort, that you need to worry the most.

Also, while individual cells of microbial beasts are much smaller than the spaces between the weave in a towel, many of the things they ride on are not, so the vast majority of things floating will be trapped in the matrix of the towel covering. I'm not so sure about a non-quadrupled cheesecloth, but then you're covered by the previous paragraph.

Just remember what Charlie Papazian always wrote, "Relax. Don't worry. Have a homebrew."

[cdh]

Just wanted to check in and see how things are going... It seems that everybody is about a week and a half into their ferments now, right? If so, I'll aim to get the next lesson posted by this weekend so that you can get your beer bottled.

We just need to let your beer finish fermenting before we bottle it, so I don't want to provide temptation to take a shortcut by giving you bottling instructions before it's time.

So, everybody out there who is brewing along and hasn't commented, let me know how far into the ferment you've gotten.

[FoodMan]

Just wanted to check in and see how things are going... It seems that everybody is about a week and a half into their ferments now, right?  If so, I'll aim to get the next lesson posted by this weekend so that you can get your beer bottled.

We just need to let your beer finish fermenting before we bottle it, so I don't want to provide temptation to take a shortcut by giving you bottling instructions before it's time.

So, everybody out there who is brewing along and hasn't commented, let me know how far into the ferment you've gotten.

I was wondering when we'll see the bottling lesson...My beer seems to be doing ok so far. This Thursday it will be two weeks. So do I need to bottle it by Friday or Saturday?

[cdh]

You should aim to bottle it this weekend sometime. Provided it is someplace out of a draft, it should still be protected from oxygen by the blanket of CO2 it made while fermenting... but since this is an open ferment, you want to get it bottled shortly after it finishes producing CO2, as it will eventually dissipate and let oxygen near your beer.

[cdh]

Another thought... Now would be the time for everybody to give their fermentor a bit of a jostle. Rock it back and forth a couple of times or gently swirl it. This will rouse the yeast that have settled and give them another bite at any remaining sugars in there. They should settle back down by this weekend.

[Matty]

I'm a little behind now - I had to make another batch as I realised I made a dumb mistake* with the first one. My second batch is a week old tonight.

* My new thermometer runs 0-100 and thereafter the 10 degree intervals are marked 10, 20, 30 etc. I pitched my yeast at what looked like 60 degrees but was actually 160 degrees. I think I wrote that I thought it had cooled quickly

A good lesson though and I enjoyed a second run at it.

Chris - I wonder if you ought to add more words of caution about boilovers in lesson 2 at the adding the DME stage. I went *very* cautiously the second time around and the first four or five spoonfuls still frothed up quite vigourously. Just a thought.

Cheers,
Matt

[Rombot]

Hi all


I may have a slight concern . It is only 1 week and 3 days since I pitched my yeast and all activity has seemed to have ground to a halt. after 48 hours I had a nice layer of foam and now everything looks flat and very inactive.

Is this a situation where i should just leave it alone and let it look after itself or do i have a problem.

hopefully I wont have to go back to step one but if need be well it is only more practice.

Rom