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Q&A: Homebrewing


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#31 Rombot

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Posted 06 April 2006 - 07:11 PM

1 Can I use a large aluminum pot for the boil?
2 For the hops does it make a difference if I get pellets plugs or flowers?
3 My Brew shop www.esbeer.com.au doesnt have the same yeast, I presume I just ask for a equivalent.

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1. For the boil, yes. As a fermentation vessel? I'd recommend against it. Aluminum is somewhat reactive, especially to acids that may be produced by yeast.

2. Doesn't matter. If you use whole hops, they do absorb more liquid than pellets do, so you'll want to add excess water to the beginning of the boil to compensate not just for evaporation, but also for hops rehydration too.

3. Your shop carries the Fermentis products, so I'd recommend the S-04 or the US-56.

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Thanks

I have done my shop and everything should be arriving shortly. Harrah :biggrin:
cant wait till the next installment.

Thanks again for your effort

Rom

#32 FoodMan

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Posted 07 April 2006 - 07:27 AM

Chris, before I rush off to my local homebrew shop can you please clarify why you mean by "siphon"? Is the siphon part of the racking cane? or do we need to buy it seperatly?

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By siphon, I simply mean using the property of water in a tube to pull the water behind it along with it once some of it has fallen below the top level of the source. Here's a quick sketch that should get the idea across.
Posted Image

Click here for more on the siphon principle.

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My question was not clear. I do know what the process is. To get a siphon going the liquid needs to be initially pumped/sucked out of the source, right? My question was refering to what we would need to get it going. I am assuming that simply sucking the beer out is not very hygienic and could lead to contamination of the beer. So, do we need to buy a small pump or does one come with the racking cane?
Sorry if I am being too thick here or if this is all discussed in the bottling course.

E. Nassar
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#33 cdh

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Posted 07 April 2006 - 08:15 AM

There are all kinds of siphon tricks out there in the world. There are gadgets available sold as siphon starters that get the siphon going without anybody sucking on the tube like a giant crazy straw... :biggrin: (which is kind of fun, and hasn't led to any problems when I've done it, but then again I drop the destination end into a bowl of sanitizer and let the first little bit run into there after using the crazy straw method.)

There is also the technique where you fill the tube with water from the tap then use that water to start the siphon, which works quite well and is fairly low risk.

As I'd said in the course, I'm trying to steer people away from gadgets they don't necessarily need. If you want to pick up a siphon starting gadget, by all means do so.

Edited by cdh, 07 April 2006 - 08:20 AM.

Christopher D. Holst aka "cdh"

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#34 mtigges

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Posted 07 April 2006 - 09:17 AM

Hope you don't mind me chiming in Chris.

The best way to start a siphon is by sanitizing it (and your fermentation vessel). Use your mouth to start siphoning from the container carrying the sanitizer. Clamp the tube before everything runs out, now the tube is full of sanitizer. Let the tube sit in the remaining sanitizer thereby sanitizing the outside of it.

When it comes time to transfer simply put the cane in the wort, unclamp, letting the sanitizer pull the wort into the tube. Redirect the bit of sanitizer to waste (the sink, or some temporary container) then once wort is flowing, fill your fermenter.

This requires a large amount of stable rinseless sanitizer (like iodopher, or star-san). Obviously you don't want to do this if you're using bleach to sanitze.

I recommend star-san, it's a brilliant product and helps ease the work involved in brewing tremendously.

Mark.

#35 cdh

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Posted 07 April 2006 - 09:28 AM

You are, of course, welcome to chime in. As is everybody else.

I do ask, however, that everybody keep in mind that this course is for folks who might not know if they want to invest a lot in brewing equipment, and who don't know much about the process. Recommending toys, gadgets and involved processes should kept to a minimum.

And you are right about the rinseless sanitizers working as you describe. I'm just trying not to bombard new brewers with a huge list of specialized goodies to buy. This course is all about keeping the barriers to entry to homebrewing low.

Siphon starters cost what? $15 maybe? A length of hose costs what? $0.75? You can start a siphon with either. Starsan works well, so does bleach water.
Christopher D. Holst aka "cdh"

----- De Gustibus Non Disputandum Est

Chris Holst, Attorney-at-Lunch

#36 FoodMan

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Posted 07 April 2006 - 09:48 AM

There are all kinds of siphon tricks out there in the world.  There are gadgets available sold as siphon starters that get the siphon going without anybody sucking on the tube like a giant crazy straw...  :biggrin: (which is kind of fun, and hasn't led to any problems when I've done it, but then again I drop the destination end into a bowl of sanitizer and let the first little bit run into there after using the crazy straw method.)

There is also the technique where you fill the tube with water from the tap then use that water to start the siphon, which works quite well and is fairly low risk.

As I'd said in the course, I'm trying to steer people away from gadgets they don't necessarily need.  If you want to pick up a siphon starting gadget, by all means do so.

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Thanks Chris! "Crazy Straw" it is :smile:

E. Nassar
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#37 jsolomon

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Posted 07 April 2006 - 01:44 PM

In regards to siphoning, I do the mouth method directly from the fermentor. I generally don't worry too much, however before I siphon, I swish regular, over-the-counter peroxide in my mouth for a full 60 seconds. Then, I "crazy straw" with abandon.
I always attempt to have the ratio of my intelligence to weight ratio be greater than one.  But, I am from the midwest.  I am sure you can now understand my life's conundrum.

#38 cdh

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Posted 10 April 2006 - 07:36 AM

Thinking about Sam's having mentioned the "starter" method of dealing with liquid yeast, I guess I should address it a bit to explain what it is all about and the easiest way to do it. This is most applicable to people using liquid yeast rather than dry yeast. (Both of the above preparations are "live", just because it is dry doesn't mean it's dead.)

Yeast multiply by budding. That means that their growth is not arithmetic, but rather geometric. Every reproduction cycle doubles your yeast population. (1,2,4,8,16,32,64,128,256,... but starting with upwards of 100 billion cells and ramping up from there.) The more yeast you've got, the quicker they can eat all the sugar in your wort, and the less chance anything else has to get established in there. To really give your yeast a kick-start, which is the idea behind the starter technique, you let them warm up a little and multiply a few times before they actually get pitched into your wort. ("Pitch" is brewer speak for tossing yeast into wort.) That way, there are more of them, they do their work quicker, and your beer benefits. This is not, however, to say that more yeast is always better. If you end up with too many yeast going at it all at once, you risk overproduction of the yeast's flavorful esters and phenolic compounds, and some yeasts produce their characteristic flavors more effectively when stressed, rather than when pampered. But it is easier to underpitch than to overpitch yeast.

Now the question becomes where and how to let the yeast warm up and reproduce a couple of times. Sam's method, below, does work fine... but there is a simple shortcut that can make it even easier. Instead of worrying about mixing up some dry malt and water and hops, you can (in most parts of the US at least) purchase unfermented bottled malt beverages. The brand I know is Malta Goya, but there are others out there too. You'll find them in hispanic markets, and often in the "ethnic" aisle of your supermarket. They're priced like soda, or cheaper, and are of the right sugar concentration for yeast to comfortably get warmed up for beer fermenting.

A bottle of malta emptied into a sanitized glass container is a fine training ground for your yeast. So, follow the instructions on your yeast package with regard to activating any internal nutrients that might be in there (Wyeast does this, others do not), and then add the yeast to the malta and cover up the vessel to keep airborne stuff out of it. In a day or two you'll see a sediment building up on the bottom of the vessel. That sediment is yeast cells that you can use to ferment your beer. Refrigerating the starter will encourage more of the yeast cells in there to fall out of suspension and join the cake on the bottom. That way you can decant most of the liquid (and the maltas are dark and might darken your beer if added) and just add the slurry of yeast cells that built up.

For beginners using fresh modern dry yeast in a two gallon batch, you really don't have to worry about this step. Once you graduate to five gallon batches and start exploring the varieties of yeast that are available in liquid but not in dry form, then this step will aid you in maximizing the deliciousness of your beer.

In re to using live cultures of liquid yeast, one way to really kick off the fermentation is to brew a small "pitching batch" a few days before so you can grow up some extra yeast (Chris may be planning on explaining this later).  This is easy to do, since you don't really care about the taste:  smack the pack & when it is inflated, boil some malt powder (maybe with a few pellets of hops) with maybe a quart of water, decant it into a sanitized glass bottle and chill, pitch the yeast and put on an airlock.  In a day or two, the yeast will have fermented the liquid into "beer."  What's more important is that the population of yeast cells you have on hand will have radically increased.  While you're boiling your wort, etc. just put the bottle in the refrigerator so most of the yeast goes temporarily dormant and sinks to the bottom of the bottle.  Decant off most of the liquid, and when it is time to pitch the yeast for your actual batch of beer just swirl the bottle to stir up the yeast and pour it into your fermenter.

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Edited by cdh, 10 April 2006 - 07:41 AM.

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#39 FoodMan

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Posted 10 April 2006 - 09:45 AM

I love Goya Malta! I have a six pack in my fridge right now. Good to know that about it if I ever decide to use wild yeast in the future.

E. Nassar
Houston, TX

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#40 slkinsey

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Posted 10 April 2006 - 09:49 AM

Heh. Liquid yeast. Liquid yeast is what you want. The wild stuff you definitely do not want. :smile:
Samuel Lloyd Kinsey

#41 FoodMan

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Posted 10 April 2006 - 11:24 AM

Heh.  Liquid yeast.  Liquid yeast is what you want.  The wild stuff you definitely do not want.  :smile:

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Right! I think I had "Wyeast" stuck in my head and I translated it into wild yeast :smile: .

E. Nassar
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#42 cdh

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Posted 11 April 2006 - 08:01 AM

I love Goya Malta! I have a six pack in my fridge right now. Good to know that about it if I ever decide to use wild yeast in the future.

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Thinking of wild yeast, you could do a fun experiment to see just how yeasty your kitchen air currents are. Open a bottle of malta, pour it into a glass bowl, and watch it for a week. I bet it self-innoculates and starts growing whatever the predominant wild yeast in your house is. You'll see a sediment build up on the bottom of the bowl, and you might see little colonies floating on top.

If you really want to isolate it to what's in the air, then sanitize the bowl by putting a couple of drops of bleach in, fill the bowl up, swirl it around, rinse it out, and rerinse it out. (Fermentation in the presence of chlorine makes some pretty awful flavors... chloraseptic is one way it has been described.)

When you see some sediment on the bottom, have a taste of the liquid. You'll know what your wild yeast's flavor profile is... there is a small chance it might be nice, but odds are that it will be nasty.

Edited by cdh, 11 April 2006 - 08:03 AM.

Christopher D. Holst aka "cdh"

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#43 jsolomon

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Posted 11 April 2006 - 08:39 AM

When you see some sediment on the bottom, have a taste of the liquid.  You'll know what your wild yeast's flavor profile is... there is a small chance it might be nice, but odds are that it will be nasty.

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You are being quite generous in using the descriptor "nasty".

Some are downright foul. Let your nose be the first guide!
I always attempt to have the ratio of my intelligence to weight ratio be greater than one.  But, I am from the midwest.  I am sure you can now understand my life's conundrum.

#44 FoodMan

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Posted 11 April 2006 - 09:21 PM

Ok, did my shopping and I am ready to go

Posted Image




Now I am off to waste a bottle of perfectly good Malta for the sake of "fun" experimentations. Maybe I'll post some picks of my local-resident-yeast growing in Malta....

E. Nassar
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#45 cdh

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Posted 12 April 2006 - 08:36 AM

Looking good, Elie! I see you got a big grain steeping bag there, and a little nylon drawstring bag. Are you planning on using the drawstring bag in place of the hop socks?

Put those hops and the yeast sachet into the fridge to keep them the freshest.
Christopher D. Holst aka "cdh"

----- De Gustibus Non Disputandum Est

Chris Holst, Attorney-at-Lunch

#46 FoodMan

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Posted 12 April 2006 - 01:56 PM

Looking good, Elie!  I see you got a big grain steeping bag there, and a little nylon drawstring bag.  Are you planning on using the drawstring bag in place of the hop socks? 

Put those hops and the yeast sachet into the fridge to keep them the freshest.

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the little drawstring bag is what the saleperson gave me when I asked for "hop bags". Are they not what you had in mind? The nylon grain bag is indeed large, actually "Jumbo" since the only sizes they had available were "small" and "Jumbo".
I do have the hops and yeast in the fridge per their instructions. I took them out so they could pose :smile:

BTW, all I can find are 1 liter soda/seltzer bottles or those itty bitty 250 ml ones. I still think 1 Liter is too large for me and would rather have 500ml bottles. Any idea if this size is even available?

E. Nassar
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#47 Mayhaw Man

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Posted 12 April 2006 - 02:06 PM

Heh.  Liquid yeast.  Liquid yeast is what you want.  The wild stuff you definitely do not want.  :smile:

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Unless you happen to be a Belgian guy. In that case, you just mash, lauter, cool, throw open the windows and turn on the fans!
Brooks Hamaker, aka "Mayhaw Man"

There's a train everyday, leaving either way...

#48 cdh

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Posted 14 April 2006 - 05:03 AM

the little drawstring bag is what the saleperson gave me when I asked for "hop bags". Are they not what you had in mind? The nylon grain bag is indeed large, actually "Jumbo" since the only sizes they had available were "small" and "Jumbo".
I do have the hops and yeast in the fridge per their instructions. I took them out so they could pose :smile:


Well, you've bought the reusable ones rather than the single use hop socks that are pictured with the lesson. More investment, but more return, whether it is proportional is up to you. Both will work fine, though the drawstring does mean you could probably get away with using just one. Just pull it out, open it up, add the next hop addition and pull the drawstring again.

BTW, all I can find are 1 liter soda/seltzer bottles or those itty bitty 250 ml ones. I still think 1 Liter is too large for me and would rather have 500ml bottles. Any idea if this size is even available?

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Availability of different sized PET bottles will depend on your local market. Here in the northern Philly suburbs, a soda bottler out of Allentown packages their seltzer in 500ml bottles. Dunno if anybody in Dallas does or not.
Christopher D. Holst aka "cdh"

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#49 cdh

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Posted 18 April 2006 - 12:21 PM

Hey Elie-

Has your Malta grown anything yet? Any signs of sediment on the bottom or bubbles on the top?

Edited by cdh, 18 April 2006 - 01:03 PM.

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#50 FoodMan

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Posted 18 April 2006 - 12:39 PM

Hey Elie-

Has you Malta grown anything yet?  Any signs of sediment on the bottom or bubbles on the top?

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Actually no. I tossed it down the sink this morning and all it grew was a couple of spots of greenish mold. Maybe my kitchen is more sterile than we expected :smile: .

I am a little behind on the brewing BTW. I need to buy a big enough pot sometime this week. the one I had was smaller than I thought.

E. Nassar
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#51 cdh

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Posted 18 April 2006 - 02:27 PM

I am a little behind on the brewing BTW. I need to buy a big enough pot sometime this week. the one I had was smaller than I thought.

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Walmart is your friend. They stock the beautiful Brazilian Tramontina stainless pots... cheap. I think I spent maybe $35 on my 16 Quart model pictured in the lesson.

Btw, good news that the yeasty beasties are not rife in your kitchen. You can probably siphon and bottle safely in there if a week of ideal growth medium exposed to the air didn't pick up anything other than a little mold.

Edited by cdh, 18 April 2006 - 02:31 PM.

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#52 UNM1136

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Posted 18 April 2006 - 05:24 PM

I am a homebrewer, and I have made more mistakes than I care to think about. I appreciate Chris's approach to the equipment issue, but I feel the need to speak up.

If you are homebrewing because of this forum, then Chris's advice is spot on.

If you are homebrewing because you always wanted to, you like beer, and you think you will starting it as a hobby, then look long and hard at your choices. Over the last 15 years I have replaced 4 brew pots, because I went Aluminum to porcelined Iron, and had to keep replacing them. With what I spent of TWO of them, I could have bought my next brewing gadget, a Stainless steel Turkey fryer. Multi tasking is good, particulary when we are buying large, heavy, expensive pots to boil our wort in. Most Mashers (all grain brewers) don't use Al, for several reasons. A good wort pot can also make stock. The other reason I replaced so many was when I went from extract to all grain, after about 6 batches, and need a much larger pot.

Next Brewing is fun, and easy, and there are more gadgets than you can shake a stick at. Weigh your needs, wants and thoughts of the future heavily before taking the plunge.

I also need to agree with everyone that has championed Wyeast. The sheer volume of the pitch helps the fermentation take off more quickly with less chance of contamination, so new brewers can have a greater chance of success. I started out with dry yeast, and for 5-10 the money (depending on type, size and vender of wyeast) I have found liquid yeast cultures to be 100 times better.

pat

#53 cdh

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Posted 18 April 2006 - 07:48 PM

Absolutely Pat, you're right. If somebody here is absolutely certain that brewing is for them and is something worth dropping a couple hundred bucks on, then buying a rinky dink starter kit is a bad economic decision. I've designed this course for people who haven't come to that decision, but do read eGullet... hence folks likely to have a well stocked kitchen and a penchant for cooking. My thought was that the average eG reader would be able to brew a 2 gallon batch with stuff mostly already in the house. Who here doesn't make their own stock every once in a while?

Looking at Elie's purchases, above, I'd guess he'd spent in the neighborhood of $30-35 for malt extract, bags, hops, yeast, tubing and specialized bits and pieces, and he chose the expensive reusable nylon hop bag. A case of beer could easily cost more. In keeping with the philosophy of the course, that makes the hobby a bit more approachable than asking somebody to put down $75 for a beginning brewer's kit, and another $100+ for a 7 gallon kettle and however much extra for a outdoor propane burner to get a 7 gallon kettle boiling.

So, as Pat advises, if you're here because you know brewing is for you and you have no pots in your kitchen, then just a 12 qt pot is way too limiting. There is a world of gadgets out there if you're really serious... the hot item lately has been stainless steel conical fermentors with a dump valve at the bottom so that you can boil, ferment, age and bottle/keg, all the while never moving the beer from the vessel the wort drained off of your grain into until it finds its final home. And you don't even have to sanitize it because you boiled right inside it.

But, if you just want to get a taste of brewing, this course if for you. If you want advice on all of the fine toys, we can certainly talk about it... but that is not the thrust of this course.

Edited by cdh, 18 April 2006 - 07:53 PM.

Christopher D. Holst aka "cdh"

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#54 Matty

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Posted 19 April 2006 - 02:55 AM

Hi Chris,

Another student getting ready here.

I've ordered a fermenting bin as our big stainless steel pan is in regular use. I'm in the UK so, doing the conversion, 9 quarts is roughly 8.5 litres. My pan is about 8 so I wonder if its possible to do the boil with 6 and make up to two gallons by adding cooled boiled water when it goes in the bin prior to pitching the yeast?

I have general question also. Are brewing recipes scalable in a regular way(i'm thinking of how bakers percentages work), or do proportions not work in a fixed way in brewing ? I'd quite like to experiment frequently, but can't imagine being able to drink enough to keep the turnover up to speed :wub: - so would quite like the ability to brew 1 gallon batches if possible.

Many thanks for running the course - just what i've been looking for.

Kind Regards,
Matt Bourne

#55 cdh

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Posted 19 April 2006 - 04:37 AM

Hi Chris,

Another student getting ready here.

I've ordered a fermenting bin as our big stainless steel pan is in regular use. I'm in the UK so, doing the conversion, 9 quarts is roughly 8.5 litres. My pan is about 8 so I wonder if its possible to do the boil with 6 and make up to two gallons by adding cooled boiled water when it goes in the bin prior to pitching the yeast?


Boiling 6 quarts in an 8 quart pot is pushing it a little bit. You're likely to experience a bit of boil-over when the foam forms as you add the extract. As to the more general question of whether a concentrated boil will work, yes, it will. I generally brew batches of about 5 gallons, and boil about half of it. Boiling concentrated wort will result in a slightly darker beer, as the heat can cause some caramelization, and the concentration means that more sugar will be in the hot spots where it occurs, hence more darkening. So if you are looking for bright yellow beer, doing a full boil is important.

I have general question also. Are brewing recipes scalable in a regular way(i'm thinking of how bakers percentages work), or do proportions not work in a fixed way in brewing ? I'd quite like to experiment frequently, but can't imagine being able to drink enough to keep the turnover up to speed  :wub: - so would quite like the ability to brew 1 gallon batches if possible.

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The answer to that is mostly yes. The grain and extract will contribute proportionally. The hops are a bit more complicated. Hop utilization decreases as the density of your wort increases. So, if you're doing a concentrated boil, you need more hops to achieve the same IBUs as you would if you were doing a full boil. If you're doing a one gallon full boil, then halving the recipe would work fine. If you're doing a one gallon concentrated boil and planning on diluting out to two gallons, then you need to use more hops. There are hop utilization calculators online that will help you figure out how much you need to add, but it doesn't sound like you need one. If you do, let me know.
Christopher D. Holst aka "cdh"

----- De Gustibus Non Disputandum Est

Chris Holst, Attorney-at-Lunch

#56 Matty

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Posted 19 April 2006 - 05:07 AM

Thanks for that info Chris.

Best,
Matt

#57 cdh

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Posted 19 April 2006 - 06:02 AM

I just noticed that Matt and Pat and Rombot are all first time eG posters.

Welcome! Explore the community here, jump into other discussions, start threads of your own, make yourselves at home.

Looking forward to seeing more from all of you. Any other new folks are encouraged to introduce yourselves and say hi.

Edited by cdh, 19 April 2006 - 06:07 AM.

Christopher D. Holst aka "cdh"

----- De Gustibus Non Disputandum Est

Chris Holst, Attorney-at-Lunch

#58 Ajl92

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Posted 19 April 2006 - 08:14 AM

Having been inspired by this course to get into home brewing I have been looking/shopping around online for the past few days for ingredients and toys (I can't help but buy toys whenever I find a new hobby:-)

The one question I had about the beginners' batch you are using in the course of 2 gallons. Your recipe calls for 3lbs of DME. When I see the notes for DME in the online stores it says that that amount is enough for a 5 gallon batch (in fact one site says to use 1-3lbs for a 5 gallon batch). Will the 2 gallon batch you are demo'ing in the course be heavy or stronger?

BTW I am really enjoying reading the classes, thanks for taking the time to make it happen. I have learned a lot already and was inspired to read some other brewing forums and it seems very accessible, but also something that I can buy a lot of toys if I want. I already roast my own espresso and enjoy things I can tweak and experiment with.

#59 Matty

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Posted 19 April 2006 - 09:25 AM

Thanks Chris.

I joined specifically to take part in this course, but I have been making sourdough for a few years so have started to lurk around the bread threads.

I was attracted by your approach on this course. I like the idea of making something delicious with only a few simple ingredients and equipment. Having travelled a bit through the sourdough bread jungle I realise that this ideal of simple goodness takes practise though.

Thanks for putting in the time to run this class and Q&A. I hope there are many other students out there lurking.

Matt

Edited by Matty, 19 April 2006 - 09:30 AM.


#60 Ajl92

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Posted 19 April 2006 - 10:08 AM

Having been inspired by this course to get into home brewing I have been looking/shopping around online for the past few days for ingredients and toys (I can't help but buy toys whenever I find a new hobby:-)

The one question I had about the beginners' batch you are using in the course of 2 gallons.  Your recipe calls for 3lbs of DME.  When I see the notes for DME in the online stores it says that that amount is enough for a 5 gallon batch (in fact one site says to use 1-3lbs for a 5 gallon batch).  Will the 2 gallon batch you are demo'ing in the course be heavy or stronger?

BTW I am really enjoying reading the classes, thanks for taking the time to make it happen.  I have learned a lot already and was inspired to read some other brewing forums and it seems very accessible, but also something that I can buy a lot of toys if I want.  I already roast my own espresso and enjoy things I can tweak and experiment with.

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Well, I guess I can almost answer my own question here. As I am oft apt to post a question just before reading further to find the answer, I was reading John Palmer's "How to Brew" online and read a few recipes where the level of DME is easily within this range. I am surprised that the online store for my local brewshop said to only use 1-3lbs for a 5 gallon batch.

Thanks again for the course and inspiration Chris.