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#61 Shalmanese

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Posted 20 March 2006 - 05:16 PM

The conversation so far has been focused on whether great chefs should be copied and my response is that of course they should because that is a celebration of their greatness. If I wanted to, I could go out tomorrow and buy the French Laundry Cookbook or the El Bulli cookbook and presumably (skill not withstanding) cook the food of Thomas Keller and Ferran Adria. Why is this? Because those chefs have made it a point to dissemenate their work and spread their influence as good chefs should. I respect inventolux in saying that certain processes involved in making the food can and maybe should be patented but the simple flavour combinations and techniques are things that not only should be copied but almost impossible to prevent copying.

What dissapointed me about the entire affair is not that good chefs shouldn't be copied, but that good chefs shouldn't be copying. To duplicate a dish exactly betrays a profound lack of commitment to creativity and also a violation of the implied expectations of the diner. It's a disservice to those to eat and also to the chef himself.
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#62 Luckylies

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Posted 20 March 2006 - 05:17 PM

As a bright young thing poised in a cutting edge, fast paced New York kitchen, I have very little understanding of how a Chef could plagerize from another chef. The amount of time and energy it must have taken for Robin to move from place to place staging in some of the best kitchens must have been staggering. I'd imagine that none of these dishes are easy to recreate and that he must have spent a great deal of time researching them. I personally know how frustrating it is to come up short creatively, even more so when you have the best ingredients at hand yet, I've earned the respect of my Chef and could never imagine losing it by representing his ideas as my own.

I'm quite surprised that someone with enough discipline to cook on such a high level, has shown them self to have so little self -control when it comes to kichen morals. Many professions have unwritten codes, and in my experiance Kitchens are highly notable for the rules of conduct, fair play and loyalty. Though these rules are often warped and weird (I could make someone I don't like look like a complete idiot and call them names openly, but not, say sabotage their mis en place..) It seems most people understand these rules and comply to them. The "bad seeds" always seem to get weeded out.

Food Plagerism in definition is a slippery slope, in that without replication, imitation and mimcry the is very little innovation. Unattributed work is just that. No cods, moltens, or buts.


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#63 The Chefs Office

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Posted 20 March 2006 - 05:20 PM

He's copying our dishes EXACTLY, using OUR recipes, plating them the SAME way! What is right about that?

Wylie

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I could not agree more (as you may have seen by my comments in the earlier threads on this subject).

I'm not such a big believer that this needs massive wide and varied discussion.
IMHO ethics should play a part here.
IMHO it's plain and simply wrong.
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#64 Fat Guy

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Posted 20 March 2006 - 05:31 PM

Plagiarism was a topic that came up around our house often when I was growing up, not because I lived in a commune of plagiarists but because my father was considered one of the leading commentators on the subject.

If you do plagiarism research, it only takes about ten seconds to stumble across a citation to "Plagiary," by Peter Shaw, in the American Scholar (1982). One of his main contentions is that plagiarism has a psychological dimension -- that it is similar to kleptomania in that the plagiarist and the kleptomaniac steal when they don't have to.

There's little doubt in my mind that the chef who turned out the Alinea and WD-50 copies depicted in the Daily Gullet piece above could just have easily, or with a minimum of additional effort, created dishes that were not such exact copies. And publishing those copies online for all the world to see? It strikes me as a cry for help. To quote my late father, this time writing in Illinois Issues in 1991:

Four psychologies prove to be at play in most cases of plagiarism. First, there is that of the plagiarist, who steals when he does not have to and inexplicably strews obvious clues to his wrongdoing. Second, there is the psychology of his accusers, whose judgment can be clouded so that some of their accusations turn out to be unconvincing. Third, there are those who must judge the case. They tend to resent the accusers for placing them in an uncomfortable situation. (For example, one of the Lincoln scholars suggested that one of Oates' accusers might have acted out of "malice.") Fourth, and last, there is the psychology of the general public. As Edgar Allan Poe observed, "when a plagiarism is detected, it generally happens that the public sympathy is with the plagiarist."

(emphasis added)

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#65 docsconz

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Posted 20 March 2006 - 05:37 PM

Plagiarism was a topic that came up around our house often when I was growing up, not because I lived in a commune of plagiarists but because my father was considered one of the leading commentators on the subject.

If you do plagiarism research, it only takes about ten seconds to stumble across a citation to "Plagiary," by Peter Shaw, in the American Scholar (1982). One of his main contentions is that plagiarism has a psychological dimension -- that it is similar to kleptomania in that the plagiarist and the kleptomaniac steal when they don't have to.

There's little doubt in my mind that the chef who turned out the Alinea and WD-50 copies depicted in the Daily Gullet piece above could just have easily, or with a minimum of additional effort, created dishes that were not such exact copies. And publishing those copies online for all the world to see? It strikes me as a cry for help. To quote my late father, this time writing in Illinois Issues in 1991:

Four psychologies prove to be at play in most cases of plagiarism. First, there is that of the plagiarist, who steals when he does not have to and inexplicably strews obvious clues to his wrongdoing. Second, there is the psychology of his accusers, whose judgment can be clouded so that some of their accusations turn out to be unconvincing. Third, there are those who must judge the case. They tend to resent the accusers for placing them in an uncomfortable situation. (For example, one of the Lincoln scholars suggested that one of Oates' accusers might have acted out of "malice.") Fourth, and last, there is the psychology of the general public. As Edgar Allan Poe observed, "when a plagiarism is detected, it generally happens that the public sympathy is with the plagiarist."

(emphasis added)

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Very interesting, Steven, particularly

"when a plagiarism is detected, it generally happens that the public sympathy is with the plagiarist.

.
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#66 Tess

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Posted 20 March 2006 - 05:57 PM

If you do plagiarism research, it only takes about ten seconds to stumble across a citation to "Plagiary," by Peter Shaw, in the American Scholar (1982). One of his main contentions is that plagiarism has a psychological dimension -- that it is similar to kleptomania in that the plagiarist and the kleptomaniac steal when they don't have to.


Do you think that in the last 20+ years the dynamics of plagiarism have changed? That theory makes sense on a lot of levels to me, at least with regard to literature and scholarship. But in 1982, I'm guessing most plagiarists knew they were doing something wrong. In today's cut-and-paste culture, it really seems as if a lot of people do not have that understanding.

#67 jamiemaw

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Posted 20 March 2006 - 06:03 PM

Plagiarism was a topic that came up around our house often when I was growing up, not because I lived in a commune of plagiarists but because my father was considered one of the leading commentators on the subject.

If you do plagiarism research, it only takes about ten seconds to stumble across a citation to "Plagiary," by Peter Shaw, in the American Scholar (1982). One of his main contentions is that plagiarism has a psychological dimension -- that it is similar to kleptomania in that the plagiarist and the kleptomaniac steal when they don't have to.

There's little doubt in my mind that the chef who turned out the Alinea and WD-50 copies depicted in the Daily Gullet piece above could just have easily, or with a minimum of additional effort, created dishes that were not such exact copies. And publishing those copies online for all the world to see? It strikes me as a cry for help. To quote my late father, this time writing in Illinois Issues in 1991:

Four psychologies prove to be at play in most cases of plagiarism. First, there is that of the plagiarist, who steals when he does not have to and inexplicably strews obvious clues to his wrongdoing. Second, there is the psychology of his accusers, whose judgment can be clouded so that some of their accusations turn out to be unconvincing. Third, there are those who must judge the case. They tend to resent the accusers for placing them in an uncomfortable situation. (For example, one of the Lincoln scholars suggested that one of Oates' accusers might have acted out of "malice.") Fourth, and last, there is the psychology of the general public. As Edgar Allan Poe observed, "when a plagiarism is detected, it generally happens that the public sympathy is with the plagiarist."

(emphasis added)

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Your pop was exactly right. The DNA Blueprint: Clifford Irving meets Elmyr de Hory meets Winona Rider.

While the ubiquity of crabcakes and wings, chili squid and (ouch!) short-ribs goes unremarked, (for all the usual reasons) it's always the forgery of elitist or aspirational art that attracts attention.

EGullet has just become the defacto international food copyright tribunal. Even if the perp does attribute, after all, any homage menu -- say, containing 17 'in the style ofs' -- might look rather foolish: The prefixes would destroy the prix fixe.

The world became much smaller today.

Edited by jamiemaw, 20 March 2006 - 06:50 PM.

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#68 zilla369

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Posted 20 March 2006 - 06:42 PM

I think the most horrifying part about the whole situation for me is that he actually staged at Alinea. I believe he also staged at FL and Per Se, as well...is that right? I suppose he was afraid to put any of Keller's dishes on his menu because they are so well-known?

I should add that Chef G received a lengthy apology from Chef Wickens. In Alinea's book, this incident is closed.


Well, I for one just can't resist saying how provocative I found this statement. I'm extremely interested in the tenor of this apology, and whether Chef Wickens actually didn't see the error of his ways until it was pointed out to him, or rather that he didn't think he'd be found out, and now he's sorry.

Since Chef Wickens hasn't responded recently, I wonder if we could convince him to respond now? Obviously Interlude has given permission for their photos to be used in the Daily Gullet piece. Robin, what do you say?
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#69 docsconz

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Posted 20 March 2006 - 07:09 PM

EGullet has just become the defacto international food copyright tribunal. Even if the perp does attribute, after all, any homage menu -- say, containing 17 'in the style ofs' -- might look rather foolish: The prefixes would destroy the prix fixe.


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I'm not sure that this necessarily follows the rest of your statement. I would think that if a chef was able to copy 17 or so different styles, do them well and accurately attribute them in a homage fashion, that in itself might be quite an original and worthwhile feat.
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#70 jamiemaw

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Posted 20 March 2006 - 07:20 PM


EGullet has just become the defacto international food copyright tribunal. Even if the perp does attribute, after all, any homage menu -- say, containing 17 'in the style ofs' -- might look rather foolish: The prefixes would destroy the prix fixe.


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I'm not sure that this necessarily follows the rest of your statement. I would think that if a chef was able to copy 17 or so different styles, do them well and accurately attribute them in a homage fashion, that in itself might be quite an original and worthwhile feat.

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Had that been the point, John, I'd give it a strong perhaps. :biggrin: Greatest Hits menus are becoming as commonplace as ubiquity itself - but they are easy to dance to.

Edited by jamiemaw, 20 March 2006 - 07:25 PM.

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Vancouver magazine

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Foodblog: In the Belly of the Feast - Eating BC

"Profumo profondo della mia carne"

#71 Fat Guy

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Posted 20 March 2006 - 07:34 PM

Obviously Interlude has given permission for their photos to be used in the Daily Gullet piece.

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To be clear, the Daily Gullet, in an exercise of the fair use doctrine governing commentary, opinion and reporting, chose to print the photographs without permission from Interlude. Although the eGullet Society is dedicated to protecting intellectual property, the team felt that its journalistic obligations to bring the information to light were paramount in this instance, especially given the nature of the underlying issues.

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#72 docsconz

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Posted 20 March 2006 - 07:34 PM


EGullet has just become the defacto international food copyright tribunal. Even if the perp does attribute, after all, any homage menu -- say, containing 17 'in the style ofs' -- might look rather foolish: The prefixes would destroy the prix fixe.


View Post


I'm not sure that this necessarily follows the rest of your statement. I would think that if a chef was able to copy 17 or so different styles, do them well and accurately attribute them in a homage fashion, that in itself might be quite an original and worthwhile feat.

View Post


Had that been the point, John, I'd give it a strong perhaps. :biggrin: Greatest Hits menus are becoming as commonplace as ubiquity itself - but they are easy to dance to.

View Post


The intriguing thing would be the ability to copy well 17 disparate styles at the same time
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#73 Fat Guy

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Posted 20 March 2006 - 07:36 PM

Do you think that in the last 20+ years the dynamics of plagiarism have changed? That theory makes sense on a lot of levels to me, at least with regard to literature and scholarship. But in 1982, I'm guessing most plagiarists knew they were doing something wrong. In today's cut-and-paste culture, it really seems as if a lot of people do not have that understanding.

View Post

You're probably right, but ultimately I don't think we should care whether people have the understanding. It's still wrong.

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Director, New Media Studies, International Culinary Center (take my food-blogging course)


#74 jamiemaw

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Posted 20 March 2006 - 07:52 PM


EGullet has just become the defacto international food copyright tribunal. Even if the perp does attribute, after all, any homage menu -- say, containing 17 'in the style ofs' -- might look rather foolish: The prefixes would destroy the prix fixe.


View Post


I'm not sure that this necessarily follows the rest of your statement. I would think that if a chef was able to copy 17 or so different styles, do them well and accurately attribute them in a homage fashion, that in itself might be quite an original and worthwhile feat.

View Post


Had that been the point, John, I'd give it a strong perhaps. :biggrin: Greatest Hits menus are becoming as commonplace as ubiquity itself - but they are easy to dance to.

View Post


The intriguing thing would be the ability to copy well 17 disparate styles at the same time

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I don't disagree, John. In fact I think you're on to something. After all, we're busy, travel is expensive and the original might not always be close at hand, per se.

On a lighter note, Rich Little is a Great Canadian.

Edited by jamiemaw, 20 March 2006 - 07:58 PM.

from the thinly veneered desk of:
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Food Editor
Vancouver magazine

www.vancouvermagazine.com
Foodblog: In the Belly of the Feast - Eating BC

"Profumo profondo della mia carne"

#75 sizzleteeth

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Posted 20 March 2006 - 07:53 PM

It has become quite a tribunal hasn't it?

As much as I don't agree with exactly what has transpired in the form of copying the dishes, I am sorry for these people that this has happened to them - because they are being made an example of only because they were caught - even though this kind of thing is common - to whatever extent.

What I would like to see from the other chefs in question is a black and white declaration in this forum, that they are obviously monitoring, that in their current work or in any of the work that has brought them to where they are - they have never plagiarized, never used something they knew to exist previously without crediting the proper source and never passed off something they knew to be a product of the work of another as their own - to whatever extent - to whatever degree.

Because in my opinion - if you cannot be measured by your own stick - then any debate on the subject as it pertains to you is worthless and the items that started this entire thread are moot in that context.

I don't have any expectation that that is going to happen - and will be extremely happy to see it if it does.

Your answer will speak volumes, your lack of answer will speak volumes, as would the removal of this post.

And let Karma treat you (and me) accordingly.

Edited by sizzleteeth, 20 March 2006 - 08:06 PM.



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#76 Tess

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Posted 20 March 2006 - 07:58 PM

Do you think that in the last 20+ years the dynamics of plagiarism have changed? That theory makes sense on a lot of levels to me, at least with regard to literature and scholarship. But in 1982, I'm guessing most plagiarists knew they were doing something wrong. In today's cut-and-paste culture, it really seems as if a lot of people do not have that understanding.

View Post

You're probably right, but ultimately I don't think we should care whether people have the understanding. It's still wrong.

View Post


Oh, absolutely.

#77 docsconz

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Posted 20 March 2006 - 08:42 PM

It has become quite a tribunal hasn't it?

As much as I don't agree with exactly what has transpired in the form of copying the dishes, I am sorry for these people that this has happened to them - because they are being made an example of only because they were caught - even though this kind of thing is common - to whatever extent.

What I would like to see from the other chefs in question is a black and white declaration in this forum, that they are obviously monitoring, that in their current work or in any of the work that has brought them to where they are - they have never plagiarized, never used something they knew to exist previously without crediting the proper source and never passed off something they knew to be a product of the work of another as their own - to whatever extent - to whatever degree.

Because in my opinion - if you cannot be measured by your own stick - then any debate on the subject as it pertains to you is worthless and the items that started this entire thread are moot in that context.

I don't have any expectation that that is going to happen - and will be extremely happy to see it if it does.

Your answer will speak volumes, your lack of answer will speak volumes, as would the removal of this post.

And let Karma treat you (and me) accordingly.

View Post


You raise an interesting point, Nathan, but I think you really are comparing apples and oranges. If any of the chefs or non-chefs such as myself have blatantly copied someone else's work without any substantive changes or alterations and attempted to pass it off as his or her work i.e. "creation" that would be extremely hypocritical. Where there is a very wide spectrum, however, is the role of learning and influence. Techniques can be taken but used in such away that the resultant product is different than the one the technique was originally designed for or techniques can be applied to different or novel ingredients. That is a very different situation than what is being discussed here, yet that is the kind of situation I feel that you keep trying to press. The situation I described is the essence of creativity - stretching and changing bounderies. Taking someone else's words or artistic expression and recreating them verbatim may show excellent technical skill in the form of a culinary or artistic product, but little in the way of creativity, unless the actual production of the product was completely different or in the case of a culinary product it looked exactly the same as another creation but tasted completely different. In the latter case, it would indeed be a new product and not a plagiarized copy.

The point I was trying to make with Jamie was that attributed copies of say 17 disparate styles at one seating, while not necessarily creative, would demonstrate a level of technical skill and beinteresting solely on that basis if for no other reason. Nor do I think that it would be ethically flawed.

Edited by docsconz, 20 March 2006 - 08:55 PM.

John Sconzo, M.D. aka "docsconz"

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- Ferran Adria on eGullet 12/16/2004.

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#78 nick.kokonas

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Posted 20 March 2006 - 08:50 PM

You set up quite the straw man Sizzleteeth... and both comment and lack thereof can knock it down...

While I am not a chef, I can say this. Throughout my academic career at a liberal arts college, having written hundreds of pages, and in all of my writing since then, I have never knowingly plagiarized anyone else nor intentionally omitted a citation in order to pass off someone elses work as my own.

That you find it so hard to believe that someone else can go through life without doing so speaks volumes to your own actions (as you admitted earlier)... and enlightens us, perhaps, as to why reaon #4 cited by Fat Guy is de rigor in these situations.

#79 sizzleteeth

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Posted 20 March 2006 - 09:03 PM

You set up quite the straw man Sizzleteeth... and both comment and lack thereof can knock it down...

While I am not a chef, I can say this.  Throughout my academic career at a liberal arts college, having written hundreds of pages, and in all of my writing since then, I have never knowingly plagiarized anyone else nor intentionally omitted a citation in order to pass off someone elses work as my own.

That you find it so hard to believe that someone else can go through life without doing so speaks volumes to your own actions (as you admitted earlier)... and enlightens us, perhaps, as to why reaon #4 cited by Fat Guy is de rigor in these situations.

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Hey brother...

If this place is to be executioner, judge and jury, me included, then the very least we can get is a hand on the Bible to swear to tell the truth.

With that I digress - before I become the hunted.

If it's not already too late. :wink:

No I haven't lived my life free from fault or wrong doing and yes, it surprises me if anyone has.

Something which I'll happily admit to - and hope never to repeat.

Goodnight.

Edited by sizzleteeth, 20 March 2006 - 09:06 PM.



nathan gray

"At the gate, I said goodnight to the fortune teller... the carnival sign threw colored shadows on her face... but I could tell she was blushing." - B.McMahan


#80 cdh

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Posted 20 March 2006 - 09:09 PM

Fascinating thread... but now I feel the urge to throw another legal wrench into the moral mechanics that are being put together here.

We appear to be forming a consensus that when a dish is duplicated from the repertoire of another, that credit should be given to the originator. One example above is the Arpege egg.

Arpege, however, is a trademark of Alain Passard (or his employers if he does not fully own the restaurant.) L'Arpege could easily stop anybody from selling counterfeit Arpege eggs. Lots of other restaurants could do the same for their eponymous dishes. They might even have incentive to do so if the copies are (in their eyes) inferior in quality to the originals. And they have a strong argument... the value of their brand is diminished in the eyes of their market by others putting out pale shadows of the original greatness, yet still attaching the original name.

We appear to be approaching a system that effectively gives the creator of a dish a right to veto another's choice to replicate it by using a combination of two principles.

1. You're a scumbag if you don't attribute your sources, and
2. If you attribute your shoddy work to the originator, they can stop you from doing so in order to protect their brand image in the market.

Complicated, no? I'd love to hear reactions to this musing.
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#81 docsconz

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Posted 20 March 2006 - 09:16 PM

Fascinating thread...  but now I feel the urge to throw another legal wrench into the moral mechanics that are being put together here. 

We appear to be forming a consensus that when a dish is duplicated from the repertoire of another, that credit should be given to the originator.  One example above is the Arpege egg.

Arpege, however, is a trademark of Alain Passard (or his employers if he does not fully own the restaurant.)  L'Arpege could easily stop anybody from selling counterfeit Arpege eggs.  Lots of other restaurants could do the same for their eponymous dishes.  They might even have incentive to do so if the copies are (in their eyes) inferior in quality to the originals.  And they have a strong argument... the value of their brand is diminished in the eyes of their market by others putting out pale shadows of the original greatness, yet still attaching the original name.

We appear to be approaching a system that effectively gives the creator of a dish a right to veto another's choice to replicate it by using a combination of two principles.

1. You're a scumbag if you don't attribute your sources, and
2. If you attribute your shoddy work to the originator, they can stop you from doing so in order to protect their brand image in the market.

Complicated, no?  I'd love to hear reactions to this musing.

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I would think if it was being sold as the Arpege egg it could be a problem, but if it was sold as so-and-so's version of the Arpege egg it would less likely be so. If I try to emulate someone but fall short it is not the fault of the person I tried to emulate. Ferran Adria should not be held in any less regard for someone else's poor rendition of a "foam".
John Sconzo, M.D. aka "docsconz"

"Remember that a very good sardine is always preferable to a not that good lobster."
- Ferran Adria on eGullet 12/16/2004.

Docsconz - Musings on Food and Life

Slow Food Saratoga Region - Co-Founder

Twitter - @docsconz

#82 cdh

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Posted 20 March 2006 - 09:21 PM

Just try marketing your Dark Caffeinated Fizzy Beverage In The Style of Coca-Cola and see how long it takes for the cease & desist nastygrams to start arriving. Same principle at work with Arpege eggs... particularly with regard to world famous brands like Arpege (and Coke), which have even higher levels of trademark protection than ordinary marks.
Christopher D. Holst aka "cdh"

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Chris Holst, Attorney-at-Lunch

#83 Tess

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Posted 20 March 2006 - 09:28 PM

I would think if it was being sold as the Arpege egg it could be a problem, but if it was sold as so-and-so's version of the Arpege egg it would less likely be so. If I try to emulate someone but fall short it is not the fault of the person I tried to emulate. Ferran Adria should not be held in any less regard for someone else's poor rendition of a "foam".

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I think he shouldn't, but he might be. I can see diners who are not that well informed (or even some who are) dismissing a dish after having a worse version of it, especially if the quality of the ingredients isn't there or something similar.

#84 Fat Guy

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Posted 20 March 2006 - 09:37 PM

I think the better analogy is to music. It's okay to say a song is inspired by the Rolling Stones, even though the band's name is a trademark.

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#85 646522

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Posted 20 March 2006 - 10:04 PM

It has become quite a tribunal hasn't it?

As much as I don't agree with exactly what has transpired in the form of copying the dishes, I am sorry for these people that this has happened to them - because they are being made an example of only because they were caught - even though this kind of thing is common - to whatever extent.

What I would like to see from the other chefs in question is a black and white declaration in this forum, that they are obviously monitoring, that in their current work or in any of the work that has brought them to where they are - they have never plagiarized, never used something they knew to exist previously without crediting the proper source and never passed off something they knew to be a product of the work of another as their own - to whatever extent - to whatever degree.

Because in my opinion - if you cannot be measured by your own stick - then any debate on the subject as it pertains to you is worthless and the items that started this entire thread are moot in that context.

I don't have any expectation that that is going to happen - and will be extremely happy to see it if it does.

Your answer will speak volumes, your lack of answer will speak volumes, as would the removal of this post.

And let Karma treat you (and me) accordingly.

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Sizzleteeth,
With all due respect it seems you have little idea of the evolution of a chef. We spend the early part of our careers studying what has already been done. It's called a foundation/the basics or whatever words you wish to use. Then at some point we make a choice; to simply continue what has already been done before, or to try and develop one's own style. Regardless of which path we choose there will necessarily be a type of plaigarism. We are all guilty of standing on the shoulders of those who have come before us. It is impossible for us not to. Even if you choose to develop your own style, all that it can really amount to is taking the sum of your existing experiences/ training and try to make it your own; twist it, spin it, evolve it somehow leaving your own fingerprint on the timeline of cooking. Inevitably there will be elements/aspects of a dish that will be traceble to previous training, but it is our hope to personlize it, to somehow make a contribution to what we have learned. Somehow take cooking a little farther down the road than where it was when we came across it.
It is with that in mind, we must consider what has transpired here. Someone has, for quite some time been taking credit or even worse, been given awards for food which he hasn't been forthright about. It is exact replica after exact replica of food from at no less than 4 restaurants in the U.S. But without any acknowledgement. This is an unacceptable type of plaigarism, one that we cannot condone. It is not the way any of us go about creating our menus.

#86 jamiemaw

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Posted 20 March 2006 - 10:20 PM

I think the better analogy is to music. It's okay to say a song is inspired by the Rolling Stones, even though the band's name is a trademark.

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Drawing together the theme of this thread, Steven's Stones analogy, and John's concept for a Tribute Restaurant means it could only be named one thing.

Edited by jamiemaw, 20 March 2006 - 10:21 PM.

from the thinly veneered desk of:
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#87 Pan

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Posted 20 March 2006 - 10:45 PM

I think the better analogy is to music. It's okay to say a song is inspired by the Rolling Stones, even though the band's name is a trademark.

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Of course it is!

#88 sizzleteeth

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Posted 20 March 2006 - 10:56 PM

Sizzleteeth,
With all due respect it seems you have little idea of the evolution of a chef.  Regardless of which path we choose there will necessarily be a type of plaigarism. We are all guilty of standing on the shoulders of those who have come before us. It is impossible for us not to. Even if you choose to develop your own style, all that it can really amount to is taking the sum of your existing experiences/ training and try to make it your own; twist it, spin it, evolve it somehow leaving your own fingerprint on the timeline of cooking. Inevitably there will be elements/aspects of a dish that will be traceble to previous training, but it is our hope to personlize it, to somehow make a contribution to what we have learned.

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Wylie - I'll make one more post here to say that on this we agree.

Though I would say a readily identifiable style is at the same level as a specific dish - in my mind.

I do understand, to some degree anyway, the evolution of a chef and my challenge to answer these questions was purposely loaded - as in answering them - any chef would have to concede to copying - really - any person would have to concede to copying - somewhere, at some point.

Some to greater degree than others.

I understand and appreciate the distinction here in ways I can never fully convey to you and I'm not condoning it - nor am I really defending it - I simply feel this person made a mistake - maybe a huge one - but one that does not deserve this type of retribution. And retribution is what I feel it is.

I could say "it's just food" - "nobody ripped off the Mona Lisa here", but then I suppose you could say that about anything and it would open every door in existence to this type of thing.

So carry on.

I do though, appreciate your answer and it does seem to me to be an honest one.


nathan gray

"At the gate, I said goodnight to the fortune teller... the carnival sign threw colored shadows on her face... but I could tell she was blushing." - B.McMahan


#89 oesophagus

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Posted 20 March 2006 - 10:59 PM

Fascinating topic, this. I'm not going to weigh in heavily on the ethics question, though surely something like "Alinea's pickled lark's tongues in Madeira aspic" or "sautee of hen's teeth and pigs' combs inspired by WD-50" serves to create interest on a menu, and is at least no more irritating to the diner than the 12 or so pairs of inverted commas gracing any given French Laundry menu. It certainly can't hurt.

I would, though, like to share two observations I've made in leading Melbourne restaurants in the last couple of years. One is the menu at Pearl, which has seen some desserts prefixed with "Stephanie's", presumably to reflect the dishes' origins either with chef Stephanie Alexander or in the time Pearl chef Geoff Lindsay spent working at her eponymous restaurant.

The other is the degustation menu at Fenix, which you can see here -
http://www.fenix.com.au/rest/rest.html
- which offers a detailed description of an amuse gueule which will seem very familiar to anyone who has dined at The Fat Duck. I've had the nitro green tea custard thing at both restaurants, and I have to say that I was very surprised not to see anything by way of a reference to The Fat Duck or Heston Blumenthal on the Fenix menu. (I should mention, too, that I've also been served liquorice-poached salmon in both restaurants, again with no suggestion of the dish's provenance on the Fenix menu. For all the casual diner knows, it may well have been something Fenix's chefs came up with when they were at The Fat Duck.)

#90 oesophagus

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Posted 20 March 2006 - 11:19 PM

Interesting to note, too, that the full Interlude degustation is dubbed "The Tour". Maybe they could just mention the whistlestops of each course.





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