85 replies to this topic

[Endy']

I've wondered about this for awhile and KevV's comments in the Winterlicious thread reminded me...

first of all, can people who are actually in the industry (IE today) weigh in on whether the kitchen draws from the tip pool where they work (it would be helpful to say a few words about the sort of place you work)?

second...how exactly does one tip the kitchen? I can imagine it at a sushi bar...or maybe someplace with an open kitchen...or sending a round of beers back...but is it possibly to directly tip the kitchen?

[GordonCooks]

I find that a round of beers, cocktails, or shared pours of a good wine is always appreciated. Even if they get shift drinks, it's the thought that counts.

[KevV]

Very recently I finished a couple-month stint in a pretty well-known Toronto place which is participating in Winterlicious. Hope that qualifies me, Endy.

As said on the W'licious thread, the kitchen gets no tips. No customer ever tipped us while I was there either. Tips are shared amongst the waiters, bartenders, bussers, runners and FOH manager. Together they all pitch in and buy a case of Heineken for the cooks once a year at Christmas. Ho-ho-ho! (I got 2.) Oh, and the bartender would sneak free beers to the back in exchange for food.

In the back, I remember once getting special instructions on how to prepare dishes for a table of five whose bill - including some very pricey wines - ended up coming to around $3,000. Imagine the tip on that, but nowt for the cooks.

How to tip the kitchen? I would ask the waiter what to do, but I also say:
(1) You could hand money to a waiter, bartender or manager with instructions, and then hope it makes its way back.
(2) Sending back a round of drinks would make you a kitchen hero, but cooks shouldn't really be drinking while they work. Where I was the 'official' rule was not until after 10pm (yeah right), and then only 2 beers or glasses of house wine which were charged for at cost. Much of the money you'd spend on the round of drinks would also evaporate into the restaurant's coffers again and into tax. (And then if you're like most people you'd probably feel obligated to tip on this!)
(3) If you felt very gregarious, you could ask to speak to the kitchen staff, poke your head in, say thanks and present your tip directly. I'm sure you'd make their week!

A word of appreciation for dishwashers, too. They tend to make even less than chefs/cooks, they work pretty hard, but get abused by everyone, including the cooks. No tips for them! At my place all they could do is slam things around in complaint as they simply wouldn't have the language skills to resolve things verbally and, like the cooks, would normally be too busy anyway.

Edited by KevV, 25 January 2006 - 12:50 PM.

[Librarian_chef]

In a couple of the places I worked, the kitchen only got a percentage of the tips left on Credit Cards. Thus, I always leave my tip on the credit card and never cash. Usually its the kitchen who deserve the tip not the bus boy or Waiter (as so many are sooo terrible and inattentive). I would have loved someone to have sent back a beer, but no one ever did or at least they never made it back to the kitchen.

The kitchen tips were issued biweekly and usually amounted to very little, not even enough to cover TTC costs for that period.

Mark

[KevV]

Usually its the kitchen who deserve the tip not the bus boy or Waiter (as so many are sooo terrible and inattentive).

Bravo! And I hope, LibrarianChef, that on the occassions you receive bad service that you do the responsible thing and just leave a nickel.

But why can't a busser simply be paid a fair wage? Why do they need to be included in the tipping game? Silly, because have you ever heard a diner remark, "Yes, it was a wonderful meal, and I particularly appreciated the way our soiled cutlery and others' vacated tables were cleared with promptitude and professionalism!"

... A common justification for tipping the standard 15%, even after mediocre service, is that, 'Well, they don't make very much.' 'They' being the waiters...

Where I worked in Toronto the waiters got $6.50 to $8.00 an hour - I'm not sure, but probably the former. The best-paid cook/chef got $13. However, with tips waiters tended to go home with a combined $200 per night (probably via chauffered limo). The cooks might emerge with $70 to $90. And the cooks worked a lot harder. No wonder the FOH would look down on the kitchen! Talk about the short end of the stick - they probably thought we were idiots.

So, next time you find yourself in a restaurant, and feelings of decorum move you to leave your 15%, then please direct some of it to the kitchen and see what happens. If your motive is guilt or charity, then don't reward bad service. I don't know - why not try contacting UNICEF, Save the Children or the Red Cross?

[WolfChef]

This is the main reason I quit cooking as a sous chef back in 1983. I love to cook. All aspects of it...but when I was grossing around $600.00 for a 6 day week with the long hours and very few days off that chefs get, especially weekends...and the waitstaff were making $300 to $400 just for a Friday or Saturday night, I decided that being a chef was a thankless job and not for me. Like I said earlier I love to cook, and to continue, it would turn into resentment...so I quit and I'm glad I did.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying waitstaff don't work. They work damn hard, it's a very tough job. It's not easy to juggle a customers, the kitchens and bars needs at the same time, and multiple tables/parties to boot. But for me it was like the people weren't coming out to be waited on as much as they wanted a damn good meal; you know something they couldn't make at home, whether it was drive or talent...and when it was great, who got the reward...not me.

[KevV]

...But for me it was like the people weren't coming out to be waited on as much as they wanted a damn good meal...

I agree. And I often feel the service is an unwelcome distraction from the food, which is why I'd go to a restaurant in the first place.

Really, if some restaurants instituted a 'service optional' policy I'd be a very happy camper. Like with smoking or non-smoking sections (remember those days?) - you could sit in the 'service' or 'self-serve' areas. In the former you'd have a waiter and pay 15% on top of the bill - service charge. In the latter, you'd get your own menu, you'd order, and then go to the kitchen to pick up your food when it's ready (and tip the kitchen if you really enjoy it). I'd like that. It'd also be great to see the kitchen, you might learn more from the meal, and the focus would be much more on the food than on service and salesmanship for the purpose of justifying tips. Some people wouldn't like it, but they can sit on the other side.

Another thought - If we take WolfChef as an example, I wonder how many good kitchen crew the restaurant world of Toronto loses because of differences in pay, appreciation and status between the kitchen and servers? (I mention Toronto specifically because the situation is not the same in, for eg, Tokyo.)

[Endy']

interesting comments all and thanks for the insight (BTW KevV -- I wasn't trying to "disqualify" anyone but just wanted to prevent the "well a friend of mine once had drinks with a guy who roomed with a prep cook..." sort of comments).

I don't think I could pull off walking into the kitchen and handing around money. It would just seem too...contrived or something. I'm sure some could, but not me...not naturally anyway.

I do like the suggestion about asking the server, and I'll try that. And at least I'll have the default of buying a round for the guys in back.

Edited by Endy', 26 January 2006 - 03:39 PM.

[KevV]

interesting comments all and thanks for the insight (BTW KevV -- I wasn't trying to "disqualify" anyone but just wanted to prevent the "well a friend of mine once had drinks with a guy who roomed with a prep cook..." sort of comments).

No worries. I knew what you meant.

I don't think I could pull off walking into the kitchen and handing around money. It would just seem too...contrived or something. I'm sure some could, but not me...not naturally anyway.

You could go to the kitchen, place down a bill on the nearest flat surface and just say, 'This is for the food. Thanks for a great meal.' But yes, I imagined it would take a fairly outgoing person. I don't know about 'contrived', though. Mostly, I relished the idea of the scene and imagined certain servers where I worked halting in their tracks, gazing with astonishment.

I do like the suggestion about asking the server, and I'll try that.

Probably the easiest way - but cross your fingers it makes it all the way to the kitchen!

[prasantrin]

What an interesting topic, which brings up another question (for me).

I had always assumed tips were shared with boh, but now it seems I was mistaken. If I were to leave a tip for boh in addition to leaving one for foh, would I leave less of a tip for foh than I normally would (back when I assumed it was shared amongst all?

For example--let's say I tip $20 on a $100 bill. Should I give $10 to foh, and $10 to boh, or $20 to foh, and then a bit more for boh? The latter, I admit, would want to make me give up on dining out altogether...

[Jmahl]

These are exactly the kinds of issues I was thinking about when I stated the thread "Taking the Heat" last week. Its like there is a cast system in place. I have left a tip for the kitchen but not often enough. Its O.K. to drool over a beautifully presented plate -- but these are real people issues and people who claim to be food fans ought to be talking about them.

Jmahl

[KevV]

This thread was just transferred over here from the 'Toronto' forum, where it's been going on a few days (see 'Winterlicious'). We've lost the context a bit, then, but it'll also be interesting so see what the rest of you all say about things in Texas and wherever else...

I had always assumed tips were shared with boh, but now it seems I was mistaken. If I were to leave a tip for boh in addition to leaving one for foh, would I leave less of a tip for foh than I normally would (back when I assumed it was shared amongst all?

Good heavens. If you start getting into this then you'd probably feel your meal's changed into an ordeal. However, if you are so conscientious (which is good) then I suppose you'd have to consider what impressed you the most. For eg, if the service was cr*p and the food great, then why not devote an entire tip to the kitchen?

And a side note. I wrote this:

A word of appreciation for dishwashers, too. They tend to make even less than chefs/cooks, they work pretty hard, but get abused by everyone, including the cooks. No tips for them! At my place all they could do is slam things around in complaint as they simply wouldn't have the language skills to resolve things verbally and, like the cooks, would normally be too busy anyway.

To clarify - the dishwashers I had in mind were not thick. They had trouble communicating because they were all Tamil (it being Toronto) and had poor levels of English.

[chef koo]

at the place i work i get tipped out. not sure what the percent is but every month i make about $80 in tips. which is negligable. personally i don't care. i get paid to do my job. same reason i don't think people should complain about bad tips. they get paid to do what they do. gratuity is a bonus.

[KevV]

personally i don't care. i get paid to do my job... i don't think people should complain about bad tips. they get paid to do what they do. gratuity is a bonus.

I agree $80 per month for you is negligible. However, you don't have to be so dutiful about it all. The kitchen isn't the army!

I'll bet that a waiter would be PO'd with $80 for a night in many places. Here in Toronto, from what I understand, people usually tip around 15% even if the service is poor. Waiters always talk about good and bad tippers, etc, and they hate the odd ones who pay less. At the same time, I never hear them complain about the injustices of cooks' wages. To use an in vogue line from Canadian politics, there's a 'culture of entitlement' at work - and the attitude is that if you work in the kitchen you are dim and should naturally be pulling in less. Like someone wrote above, in North American restaurants it is like there is a caste system at work.

[Busboy]

I spent a few years working as a waiter and perhaps you Canadians are a little closer to the old Enlish class system than we Yanks , but I never encountered a superior attitude towards the kitchen. We hated owners, managers, investors, poor tippers, women who pulled out calculators to split their checks and people who came in late and ordered dessert, but the kitchen staff never came up.

As for wages, I never once met a waiter who gave a shit what anyone else was making, unless it came out of their pocket. The argument over who "deserves" what is endless and pointless. Should waiters make more than line cooks? Should football players make more than teachers? Should CEOs make more than PM's? As long as people are willing to work in the kitchen for what owners are offering, that's what they're going to get paid.

[coquus]

Cheers to this topic, Canadians wondering aboot tipping more gets a big yip-yip-yippoo! That said, the biggest tip i've received was twenty bucks from the owners mother when I cooked a meal for her and her husband right before closing time, she is a social worker by day, who said nothing but thank you, of course she had full kitchen access so it wasn't too hard for her. Where I work now, the wait staff has some pretty lean months where a good night definately doesn't pay the weeks bills, so the extra money they earn is more than justified during the hot seasons. I can easily count the tips I've had on both hands in the three years I've worked for three different fine dining establishments, including one in an open kitchen.

[Luckylies]

i work in an open kitchen I cant wait until the day someone like my salad so much they send me a tip....that would, like make my life. My mom came into out restaurant for dinner she just asked the waiter to send x amout of dollars worth of beers to the kitchen....very nice move.

[KevV]

I spent a few years working as a waiter and perhaps you Canadians are a little closer to the old Enlish class system than we Yanks... I never encountered a superior attitude towards the kitchen

I see you are in Wash DC where things might be a bit different. One thing in Toronto is that restaurants are chalk full of wannabe actors, film directors, script-writers, and so forth, who just work as waiters 'to pay the bills'. No one will admit to being a professional waiter, nor often aspire to really being professional as a waiter, I feel. And of course, to me, people with delusions of silverscreen glory tend to have an inflated sense of self-importance to match. I wouldn't attribute restaurant hierarchies to the influence of an English caste system. (And jeez, things are more egalitarian here than down south. ) I'd rather blame Hollywood!

The analogy of a restaurant caste system was someone else's idea, and so shows that others agree. You say you never encountered a 'superior attitute toward the kitchen'? I'll just say that you're less likely to sense people getting the short end of the stick when you've got the big part.

As for wages, I never once met a waiter who gave a shit what anyone else was making, unless it came out of their pocket. The argument over who "deserves" what is endless and pointless. Should waiters make more than line cooks?...As long as people are willing to work in the kitchen for what owners are offering, that's what they're going to get paid.

Again, waiters wouldn't be upset that the kitchen makes less, would they? We're not just arguing about the wage imbalance here, but if it comes down to the issue of who deserves more $$ then, jeez, more than anything else you'd have to say, in Canada or the States, that the great measure of affluence, status and 'success' is wealth, despite what people might profess. Yes, restaurants get away with underpaying the kitchen. But isn't that wrong? Food is one of the essentials of life and the kitchen is where it's made. If I'm to be stranded on a desert isle I'd take a cook with me rather than a waiter.

Cheers to this topic, Canadians wondering aboot tipping more gets a big yip-yip-yippoo!...

Well, what I've been saying is that it would be good if everyone gave the kitchen a big tip-tip-tippoo. As for 'yips' or 'yippoos', if someone could translate what this means...

[KevV]

My mom came into out restaurant for dinner she just asked the waiter to send x amout of dollars worth of beers to the kitchen....very nice move.

Yeah, but she doesn't count because she's your mum!

[annanstee]

In my personal experience, the kitchen has received a percentage of tips.. in one place, we (the waiters), lobbied the management to give the cooks more of a percentage- they tended to get the least and they worked the hardest. Mind you, also got a few dollars more an hour than the front of the house. We did always buy them beers on a busy night.
I am a big believer that bussers should get some of the tip pool- they can make or break a waiters night- the faster they turn the table, the faster the waiter is back at the table selling. And if the busser is clearing plates and filling water, then the waiter is selling and attending to the diners' other needs. The busser has a very real influence on both the level of service and the level of sales.
One thing that really floors me- I know of one restauranteur in this town (Vancouver), who is hugely successful and owns several properties. HE takes a percentage of his waiters' tip out, and on a huge tip, he is known to take extra. He is also known for being pretty nasty to his staff.

[scarlett]

When I waited tables, we tipped a percentage of our total sales to kitchen & host, bartender, and bussers. If memory serves me right, kitchen & host and the bartender got 1.5%, and the bussers got 1%.

And the lovely thing is, you know how the restaurant pays Visa/Mastercard/AmEx a percent to accept their cards? Yeah, that got transferred back to us too. So based on our credit card sales, we paid a percentage of that too (1.5% of the credit card sales).

So, if you tipped me 20%, 5.5% of that went to people other than me. Which was fine and I never had any problem with that. Sometimes you have a great bartender or busser, so I'd pay them even more. Or if I had a big party, I'd pay the busser $20 right off the top and tell him there was more where that came from... let's have a great night.....

The last restaurant I worked in had a predominantly Mexican crew. I have a friend who owns a spice shop, so about once a month, I'd bring them bags of authentic chilies and stuff. Mother's Day, Father's Day, and other pain in the butt holidays, I always brought in a big bottle of tequila for the BOH.

But now as a patron, I've wondered how to repay the kitchen for a great meal, etc. Recently I hosted an event at a restaurant for 40 people. The food and the service was spectacular! I came in the next day with thank you notes for the FOH staff and an extra tip in each envelope. For the kitchen, I brought in a bottle of fine tequila I had recently picked up in Mexico. That went over really well!

[KevV]

I am a big believer that bussers should get some of the tip pool- they can make or break a waiters night- the faster they turn the table, the faster the waiter is back at the table selling. And if the busser is clearing plates and filling water, then the waiter is selling and attending to the diners' other needs. The busser has a very real influence on both the level of service and the level of sales.

Good point.

[joiei]

When I worked at the Paradise Cafe in Grayton Beach, Fl (now long gone) the chef kept the tips until the end of the season and then split the total tips between all the kitchen crew. It came to a couple of hundred apiece. But that was unusual. I have tipped a kitchen, ususally I give it to the manager and ask them to see that it got to the correct persons. I know it worked because the next time I was in the restaurant, the kitchen staff took extra care with my food and it showed. I do not tip then every time, just when something is exceptional.

[Pan]

[...]Again, waiters wouldn't be upset that the kitchen makes less, would they?  We're not just arguing about the wage imbalance here, but if it comes down to the issue of who deserves more $$ then, jeez, more than anything else you'd have to say, in Canada or the States, that the great measure of affluence, status and 'success' is wealth, despite what people might profess.  Yes, restaurants get away with underpaying the kitchen.  But isn't that wrong?  Food is one of the essentials of life and the kitchen is where it's made.  If I'm to be stranded on a desert isle I'd take a cook with me rather than a waiter.[...]

I'd rather have some food available for gathering, whereupon I suggest to you that the farmworkers who picked the food are the most valuable and underpaid workers in the food chain. But that's the way it is. As you know, the pay of workers is regulated by the laws of supply and demand, absent union contracts or well-enforced laws on minimum wages and so forth.

[KevV]

I'd rather have some food available for gathering, whereupon I suggest to you that the farmworkers who picked the food are the most valuable and underpaid workers in the food chain. But that's the way it is.

Sure. It'd be great to tip them as well, or send over a round of beers! However, someone will have to start a new thread ('Tipping the farm') so we can figure out how to manage that.

As you know, the pay of workers is regulated by the laws of supply and demand, absent union contracts or well-enforced laws on minimum wages and so forth.

Yes, of course. But this seems to suggest that kitchen staff must know what they're getting into when they take a job, and so any poor conditions they suffer are, therefore, their own fault. Same as what someone wrote earlier - 'As long as people are willing to work in the kitchen for what owners are offering, that's what they're going to get paid.'

I'm more interested in this: I think if more diners knew about the pay disparity between cooks and servers, they might want to channel some of their tip money in a different direction.

That is if we do tip. People have already discussed the ins and outs of tipping versus fixed service charges and so forth elsewhere on eG. For what it's worth, my preference is for cooks, servers, bussers, etc, to all be paid fairly through wages and for tipping to be forgotten of. To me it's just a strange custom, and it seems to penalise the kitchen, in effect, because it so favours the servers.

[Pan]

I think there's only so much one can expect of individual customers. If a majority in a given jurisdiction believes in more equitable pay, they can choose more equitable ways to distribute that pay, as well. I recall that in Alaska, every resident got (still gets?) a payment from the state government that was not called "welfare," but their personal share of the oil profits, for example. But as you can see, this kind of discussion goes way beyond food-related topics and gets into more general questions of socio-political economic views and policies. So getting back to the topic, I don't think that if most customers knew about the disparity in pay between their waiters and the cooks on the line, they'd want to pay more in order to tip the kitchen, nor do I think it would improve things if waiters were thereby tipped a lower percentage in order for customers to tip the kitchen. Do you honestly believe that customers want to pay more to dine out? Isn't that like arguing that Americans would rather pay more to "buy American" (Canadians would rather "buy Canadian," etc.) instead of buying things made cheaply in sweatshops in China, Mexico, and so forth? How well has that turned out?

(For the record, I don't think that it's workers' "fault" when they are badly paid, but neither is it customers' fault.)

[KevV]

I don't think that if most customers knew about the disparity in pay between their waiters and the cooks on the line, they'd want to pay more in order to tip the kitchen, nor do I think it would improve things if waiters were thereby tipped a lower percentage in order for customers to tip the kitchen. Do you honestly believe that customers want to pay more to dine out?

Nope. But I think your 2nd idea - changing how tips are proportioned - would be good. At least one person has remarked above that when they've tipped in restaurants, they've thought that the money is somehow divided and not just pocketed by the waiter. We've seen it really depends on the restaurant, however, so how is a diner to know? Maybe all you can do is to give a tip and tell the waiter - 'this is for you,' or 'please give half of this to the kitchen' depending on the quality of service and service you experience. If the food has been great but the service has been of the 'leave a nickel' variety, then I would try and tip the kitchen through the manager or something. If both are bad, just leave a nickel.

When it comes down to it, waiters make too much relative to the kitchen. When I was a cook there was little I could do to change this, and it upset me enough that I quit.

[scarlett]

Two things I wanted to comment on. If you intended to tip the kitchen, I'd give it directly to the manager or even better yet, ask the chef to come out. Unless it's an open kitchen or the chef makes a point of going to the dining room, it can appear to be a very thankless job. I like the personal contact, thanking them directly anyway. Also, I'd never give money to a server that was intended for anyone else. Theft runs rampant in the restaurant biz and while there are honest folks out there, in no way would I ever expect cash to travel back to the kitchen.

Another point is that I've had several occasions as a server, where the kitchen royally screwed up an order (overcooked steaks & seafood are frequent complaints). When the guest gives me a "nickle", it wasn't my fault the kitchen screwed up. And yet to send a message to the restaurant, it impacts me directly. Walkouts or people who "forget" to sign the credit card slip, or people to take both copies...those also impact me as a server. I had one night where one table was the bulk of my sales for the evening. They had a terrible issue with the food and in the end, they stiffed me on a $600 check. I'd had a few tables before they came in, luckily. So this table stiffs me...I still have to tip out all the usual people per my total sales. I left with $6 for the night. While this is not a typical experience, it does happen.

I agree that there is a significant imbalance between front of the house and back of the house. Even though I love to cook and would enjoy working on the line, I know it's too much of a pay cut to take that step. It's a difficult job for sure. Even worse? The dishwasher. Those guys work so hard...often under awful conditions.

[KevV]

Another point is that I've had several occasions as a server, where the kitchen royally screwed up an order... When the guest gives me a "nickle", it wasn't my fault the kitchen screwed up. And yet to send a message to the restaurant, it impacts me directly. Walkouts or people who "forget" to sign the credit card slip, or people to take both copies...those also impact me as a server.

These are good points. A diner might not be able to figure out what went wrong and you get blamed and, for whatever reason, you lose money because of it.

I guess what you've said is therefore another justification for having a service charge or 'gratuities' automatic on the bill to be shared amongst the staff, as at Per Se (discussed at length on another thread here), or as in France. Of course management could remove the charge to appease customers when things are botched.

[FabulousFoodBabe]

I'm more interested in this:  I think if more diners knew about the pay disparity between cooks and servers, they might want to channel some of their tip money in a different direction.

This thread came to mind the other night, as I watched a Katrina evacuee on the news. She was speaking out about being "removed" from the hotel where she and others had been living for a few months. She was outraged that they were expected to get jobs, when the only jobs they were being offered was as "Cooks! How insulting is that!" She went on to say that lots of these people were college-educated and to offer them such demeaning work was reprehensible. It reminded me that the attitude most people have about the restaurant business hasn't changed a lot.

You know: cooks are either the fancy, four-star types who are artistes and either don't need money or prefer to starve for their art ... or that they've got a funny shade of green card, and send all their money back to the village in Mexico that they came from. Or, worst of all, that they can't do anything else.

Do you really think that with this belief, anyone would send even more money to the BOH cooks?