139 replies to this topic

[Steve Plotnicki]

Sandra - No I shape them by hand into a quasi ballish shape. I do my kosher salt and garlic thing (pretty much coating them) and the trick is to put them on a very hot fire where the coals haven't completely cooked down to grey ash, but not so hot that the fire will constantly be flaming up. Then when the burgers are ready on that side, flip them and then flatten with a spatula. Since they were in a ball, you have lots of nice rare center that hasn't even come close to cooking, but the outside is completey charred. Then when you flatten it, all you have to do is to cook it to a slight char on that side and they are done. They are perfect, medium rare but warm in the middle and have a great garlic/salty flavor to them. The trick is to get the fire when it is hot, but not too hot or the outside of the burger burns and dries out. Char is good. Burnt is not.

Okay I have to sign off. I have a fire going and we are making the Patricia Wells Lemon Thyme Lambchops and my wife made the infamous gratin and it looks pro. More later.

[foodie52]

SPAM is next.

[Jaymes]

Then when the burgers are ready on that side, flip them and then flatten with a spatula.

"flatten"? You flatten them?

Boy if I'd tried that, I'd a gotten whupped upside the head with a spatula.

Doesn't that force the juices out?

[Fat Guy]

I think Plotnicki is talking more about shaping than true flattening.

[Steve Plotnicki]

Jaymes - I'm not saying to make them flat, I'm talking about flattening it into a patty shape. What do you think that in NYC we eat flat hamburgers? Only at White Castle. It doesn't force much of the juices out. You might get a little rise in the flame when you flatten it out. If you pack the burgers with enough meat, you get the perfect burger shape when flattening.

[Jaymes]

Tanks guys. My faith is restored.

[tommy]

i am getting (with any luck) a meat grinder for that big white mixer thing i have in my kitchen (you know, the "kitcheaide", which no one uses unless they bake). i've been told i can make really good hamburger meat from this device. as i type this, i realize that i should probably start a new thread on what kind of meat to grind for the perfect burger. ok then. but, i'll take any comments here.

[macrosan]

Isn't it interesting that everyone on this thread has something to say about burgers, but not a comment about hot dogs. And I'm not surprized. I'm gonna hang around here till someone answers my question about what's the big deal with hot dogs, beyond sarcastic comments about my beloved country's own culinary nonentities.

[Lesley C]

What do these White Castle burgers taste like?

[Steve Plotnicki]

Lesley C - You never had a White Castle burger? They are a testament to fast food creativity.

They are square in shape, possibly 2 1/2 square and very thin like 1/4 of an inch and a frozen patty has diced onion spread on top. There are small holes punched throughout the burger. Since they are square, they are able to be placed side by side on a griddle, with one burger smack up against the other. They are mostly cooked by being steamed, and since the burger has holes in it, the steam comes through the holes and cooks both sides of the burger at the same time. The person manning the cook station will lay out enough burgers to fill a small griddle. Maybe they will be 12 across and 12 deep. I guess that's a good question. How many burgers fit on one of those griddles? After the griddle is full, they place a bun on top of each burger. The bottom of the bun goes face down, and then the top of the burger is face down as well. After the cook finishes laying the buns on top of the burgers, they are done. The cook spatulas the top bun into their free hand while flipping the bun top over so the soft portion of the bun is face up. They then take the burger with the bottom of the bun off the grill, lay it right on the top of the top of the bun, and then stuff it into a small box with an open top. They then take a slice of a dill pickle and insert it, and then squirt ketchup onto the top of the burger. Voila. Junk food greatness. If you want cheese, after they take it off the griddle they place a slice of cheese that is the same exact size as the burger (I mean exact) and they have a steamer that they use to melt the cheese. It's sort of a press type of thing that is reminiscent of what they would use to make a Cuban sandwich.

The taste of all of this is sort of oniony, and meaty. The bun is sort of mushy, but not to the point where it disintegrates. But it is soft the way something would be from steaming. Same with the meat. I think they must be particular in the way they grind the meat for the burgers and it is somewhat coarse but I think that is isn't too chewey because the steaming softens it and the holes in the burger cut down on density. Whoever invented the thing, tweaked every aspect of the invention to make it perfect for a fast food franchise. I'm certain that every aspect of the preparation was measured so a person working the griddle would be able to produce X number of bugers in Y minutes. And unlike McDonald's which is a more recent invention, WC is from the 30's I believe so the engineering here is a cornerstone of fast food. From memory (and remember this is all written from my youth and they might have changed some of this process)it would take someone about 2 minutes to cover a griddle with burgers and another 2-3 to cover the burgers with buns. Then they would have to wait for a minute or so and then they were ready.

The big allure about the White Castle burger is they were almost bite size. I don't think that the meekest of eaters would take more than 3-4 bites to finish one. And it's possible to stuff a whole one in your mouth if you had the kind of neck a defensive tackle would have. But 2-3 bites for normal eaters. Considering their size, you could eat tons of them. It's not unusual for someone to order 6+. Also, WC is open 24 hours. So when you're a teenager and you're finished doing whatever teeneagers do at 3:00 or 4:00 in the morning, you could head over there and get yourself a bag full.

[Sandra Levine]

I've never had one and want to keep it that way.

[Rail Paul]

I've never had one and want to keep it that way.

Never? Not even one?

[Blondie]

Steve, the breadth of your knowledge continues to astound me . We occassionally stopped at the White Castle across from my dad's office on Northern and Bell in Bayside. (I wonder if it's still there). After a certain age, though, the chance of ending up there was directly proportional to alcohol consumption .

[Sandra Levine]

Never? Not even one?

I'm telling the truth

[Steve Plotnicki]

Hey Blondie. That was my proprietary White Castle, just about a 2 mile walk from where I grew up. What office did your dad have and did you grow up in that neighborhood? There used to be a place on Bell Blvd. right across the street from WC that was a luncheonette with a sign in the window that said "Creamy Egg Creams" and we used to go there all the time as well. But I paid many a visit to that WC in the wee hours of the morning. I remember going there at around 4:00am once in a state that, well you could imagine. So I decide I'm going to ask them for my burgers medium rare and when I go up to the lady with the hairnet on who wants to take my order, I start laughing so hard that I can't speak. My friend online behind me had to bail me out and he pushed me aside and gave her the order. Ah, the fun things you get to do when you're young.

[Blondie]

I wish I'd spent more time in Bayside, but we lived further out on LI. Post-college I also lived in Little Neck, but the Scobee Diner was about 90 seconds from my front door, and so often won out over WC.

[Fat Guy]

I wish I'd spent more time in Bayside

Another eGullet first.

Macrosan: A hot dog is a sausage, yes it's true. I don't suppose I have to explain to you why sausage is good; you're mostly saying that the hot dog is a bad example of sausage. Well that is of course true of most hot dogs, just as most sausages in general are lousy. But a good hot dog is a good sausage, rather similar to a knackwurst. So before I go on, do you acknowledge the possibility of good knackwurst?

[Jinmyo]

So before I go on, do you acknowledge the possibility of good knackwurst?

Careful, macrosan! It's a trap!

[Blondie]

I wish I'd spent more time in Bayside

Another eGullet first.

LOL

I guess growing up in suburbia, even Bayside seemed exotic . Actually, I had some very fun evenings at some of the pubs around Bell. I can't say I'm pining for it now though.

[Steve Plotnicki]

Blondie - I've been to the Scobee more times than I can count. Loads of my friends from high school lived near there. Where did you live, inside Patrick's Pub? That stretch of Northern Blvd between Little Neck Road and the city line always had good restaurants. It always had a couple of old school Italians etc. And these days it has La Baraka, that Turkish kabab place that's pretty good, a couple of Japanese and Korean places etc. They get a crowd of diners who live in Great Neck or who are passing by on their way home to the Island.

I was actually in that neighborhood recently (as opposed to just pasing through.) Someone I know held a wine tasting at a place called Il Toscano which is at the Douglaston train station on the LIRR. I took the train out there from the city. It made me feel like a commuter which was strange considering it was a neighborhood I hung out in for my entire adolescence.

[Blondie]

I lived on the same side of the street as the Scobee, a block or so west. You're right about the number of good restaurants along that stretch. Patrick's Pub was great. I really liked living there and may have stayed if not for the roommates from hell.

When I drove through a few days ago I did notice the greater variety. Next time through I'll have to stop, take a look around and try La Baraka.

Small world

[SobaAddict70]

I too, confess, to never having had a WC burger. The possibility of consuming steamed hamburgers reminds me too much of what Burger King does to their burgers: flame-broiled/steamed/microwaved and then placed under a heat lamp! No thanks. (I can attest to all of that, having worked at a BK when I was a scrappy teenager. )

Macrosan, you must have had one too many hot dogs on the gritty streets of New York. You know, the kind sold by those hot dog vendors with boiled sausages. However, there are vendors with grilled hot dogs -- these don't quite come close to Nathan's, but they're an okay substitute until you taste the real thing. Most of the ones with grilled operations use Hebrew National (at least in my experience). Try one the next time you see one, and maybe it will make a convert out of you.

Fat Guy, my experience with knackwurst and bratwurst is colored by having average ones in Milwaukee. By average, I mean, having one and saying to myself -- "these can't possibly be as good or better than those hot dogs in New York". Every year, Milwaukee plays host to GENCON, which is an all-consuming four day extravaganza of a convention of nothing but role-playing games/science fiction and fantasy novels/comic books/Star Trek and all things Star Wars/board and computer games. If you're a true geek like I am, GENCON is heaven on earth. Until recently, the con was held in MECCA, which is Milwaukee's version of the Jacob Javits Center, except that MECCA is about four times as big and connects by skywalk to a mall that's roughly the size of the mall in Paterson, New Jersey (can't remember the name). Now, the con is held inside Milwaukee's newly constructed Midwest Express Convention Center -- MECCA's replacement. The food was notoriously bad then, and hasn't really changed all that much now -- overpriced bratwursts at $2.50 a pop comes to mind. At least, they very rarely tasted like overly large boiled sausages. Most of the time, they were rather characterless.

[Aurora]

Isn't it interesting that everyone on this thread has something to say about burgers, but not a comment about hot dogs. And I'm not surprized. I'm gonna hang around here till someone answers my question about what's the big deal with hot dogs, beyond sarcastic comments about my beloved country's own culinary nonentities.

The American love of the hot dog, as you may have gathered, is not very easy to explain. It's similar to asking us why we like baseball. Many have attempted to explain that too, but it has never been done in 100 words or less. BTW there really is nothing better than a hot dog and a beer while attending a baseball game. There is a certain bit of nostalgia involved. As children, who among us didn't request a hot dog when we went out with our parents (yes, some of us asked for hamburgers)?

It is a quick, easy thing to prepare, so it's convenient--Americans love their convenience. It is also fun, and can be individualized--Americans love their "individuality"--that makes it something special and unique to all of us (I like spicy brown mustard, grilled onions, and kraut). We all have a favorite place that serves up a hot dog that holds a special place in our hearts. Besides, a hot dog is one of the few foods most finicky children raise no opposition to eating. I think that is where our initial connection to the hot dog is made, and it never dies.

Where I grew up, the bratwurst that was king, and still is. In Chicago, polish sausage is bigger in popularity, it's also more flavorful. One of the things that has come up in this thread is mention of quality sausage. This is critical. Vienna Beef makes a variety of sausages and prepared meats. They also make an excellent dog in a variety of ways (synthetic vs. natural casing, etc.). In terms of hot dogs, they are the most widely known in the Midwest, and they do a thriving business. For brats, Usingers is the place to go. Not that you would, your disgust on the matter is duly noted.

Perhaps this is a call for me to open a hot dog emporium in London...

Plotnicki - I am so impressed by your poetic, loving, lengthy description of the White Castle burger! I have always been disgusted by the little things. You neglected to inform Leslie C that WC burgers are commonly referred to as "SLIDERS" for a very compelling reason. For many WC lovers, that is all part of the attraction, and it leads to my point that our love/fascination/fixation/obsession with hamburgers and hot dogs appeals to something much deeper in us.

Though neither article did a very good job of delving into the reasons behind our connection to hamburgers or hot dogs. A serious discussion of how these things are really tied to memory, emotion (clearly demonstrated by this thread) and a sense of nationalism would have given both articles an added boost that would have made them worthy of the publications in which they appeared.

Macrosan - does that help a little? I hope so.

[Steve Plotnicki]

"It is a quick, easy thing to prepare, so it's convenient--Americans love their convenience."

Aurora - White Castle burgers are an amazing bit of American ingenuity. Showing up at WC at 2:30 in the morning and watching them make a new batch can be mezmerizing!

I hate to say it but, it's the walk and chew gum syndrome. Americans like anything that frees up their time. Especially something that makes the lunch break shorter so people have time to make more money, or take care of their househould errands. Why waste time eating? I guess there's an aspect of this that says that burgers, hot dogs and slices of pizza proliferated our culinary culture at a time when the food we ate for serious meals wasn't particularly good. But nowadays since the food revolution occured, they have assumed a different place in our culinary culture.

In fact now that I write this, the habit of eating and watching is distinctly American. That is why hot dogs and ballgames are such a good fit. Snacks at movies is another one. One of the problems the movie industry has in Europe is the fact that the culture there doesn't run to people spending lots of money on popcorn etc. In the U.S., a typical deal for a movie studio/theater is to split the box office 90/10 in favor of the studio. The studio provides the advertisement and that drives traffic. But where the theater makes their money is on popcorn. I forget the average spent per person but it is something in excess of $2-$3 per person. In France the average is something like $.50 so there hasn't been the same capital investment into building new screens all over France like there has been in the U.S.

[Bux]

i am getting (with any luck) a meat grinder for that big white mixer thing i have in my kitchen (you know, the "kitcheaide", which no one uses unless they bake).  i've been told i can make really good hamburger meat from this device.  as i type this, i realize that i should probably start a new thread on what kind of meat to grind for the perfect burger. ok then.  but, i'll take any comments here. 

It's so clear that you should have started a new thread that I'm inclined to put my response in that thread and challenge you to find it.


I have one of those and one of the others that everyone uses whether or not they bake. I have a grinder for the Kitchenaid and although I use the apparatus to stuff sausages, I rarely use it with the cutting disks. I much prefer to chop my meat in the "other" machine which is a venerable vintage Cuisinart. The meat grinder forces the meat against the disks and squishes it as much as it cuts it. Although this is exactly what's done in the butcher shop, I much prefer using the blade of the Cusinart to chop the meat which is closer to what you'd get if you had the patience to chop your meat by hand with a sharp knife--in my opinion.

When we make sausages, which we haven't done in some time, I will generally chop the meat in the Cusinart and then pump it through the grinder without the disks to stuff the casings. Those are my comments on "grinding" meat. We rarely cook hamburgers and when we do, it's with no expertise and in the interest in eating quickly with little involvement. We often cook meatballs and stuffed things using ground pork, but we've become lazy and buy most of that conveniently ground at our butcher on Grand Street.

[Bux]

BTW there really is nothing better than a hot dog and a beer while attending a baseball game.

We tend to pack food for a visit to Shea, so I'm not sure we can agree on this.

[Bux]

Americans like anything that frees up their time. ... Why wastetime eating?

An argument I've repeatedly had on the European travel newsgroup is about the "waste of time" eating when in Europe and that includes France. My argument that there's no better way to ingest and absorb the local culture than by spending time enjoying its best food and its typical food at liesure, is frequently met with replies that eating in MacDonald's frees up limited time for seeing the sights and museums. I'd respond that they'd be better off with a travelog, but they know that already as evidenced by the time we were standing on line at the Uffizzi and the person behind us suggested to their companions that they might be better off just gettting the video.

I still hold out for the gut reaction when I travel.

[Fat Guy]

How many burgers fit on one of those griddles?

30 at a time, and the onions are under the patties.

[Blue Heron]

Steve P. - I enjoyed your description of the White Castle hamburger which I've heard much about, but have never tasted before. Next time I'm in NY, I think I will have to try one (along with a NY vendor hotdog and a slice of NY pizza). I like that the WC's are small, too. I hate when a hamburger has too much bun.

[Fat Guy]

White Castle produces an acceptable product, but there are several places utilizing a similar procedure that serve superior burgers. Sassy's Sliders on Third Avenue between 86th and 87th Streets (in New York City) is one.

http://www.sassyssliders.com/home.html

Another is White Manna, in Hackensack, NJ.

http://www.hollyeats.../WhiteManna.htm

The steamed burger, by the way, is a venerable and respectable species. It reaches its pinnacle in Meriden, CT.

http://www.roadfood....p?Review_ID=112

White Castle was the first fast-food chain, according to its Web site.

http://www.whitecastle.com/home.asp

There are five holes in each patty.