275 replies to this topic

[Wolfert]

"Are there differences between a cannele that you would get here in US from payard, la brea, or even balthazar (there is a clear difference between balthazar and payard actually), compared to what you would find in Bordeaux."

P.S.. I really liked your article Paula and will try your recipe.

I also agree with the use of a convection oven, I've gotten a much better cannele when using professional convection oven than from my regular oven at home.

u"Are there differences between a cannele that you would get here in US from payard, la brea, or even balthazar (there is a clear difference between balthazar and payard actually), compared to what you would find in Bordeaux."

The recipe on the website is my attempt to duplicate the one given to me by patissier Antoine of Bordeaux. I think his canele is delicious. As for the Balthazar version, I've been told my canele is very similar in texture and taste to the one they make. I haven't been there to try it, but it is one of the first things I want to do when I go to NY this fall.
Hope this info helps.

And thanks for your kind words about the piece.

Edited by Wolfert, 11 June 2003 - 05:52 PM.

[kitwilliams]

Are there differences between a cannele that you would get here in US from payard, la brea, or even balthazar (there is a clear difference between balthazar and payard actually), compared to what you would find in Bordeaux.

mjc: That's the thing: I don't know if there are differences but I sure would like to find out!

and what IS the difference between payard and balthazar?

[mjc]

and what IS the difference between payard and balthazar?

The big difference between Payard's Canneles and Balthazar's is the color and texture on the outside. Payards are almost black (or a very dark caramel color) and very crisp while balthazar's are a much ligher brown and not as crisp. Both are quite delicious though. Its been quite a few months since I last compared them, but I believe that Payard's tend to be slightly more custardy on the inside. Also suprisingly the ones at payard a a quarter cheaper.

I always guessed that bathazar made theirs is silicon and payard in metal, because when I make them in the copper molds my results are much more similar to payard's, but thats just pure speculation.

[Wolfert]

Thank you so much for describing the differences between the caneles at payard and balthazar. So much for trusting someone else's tastebuds. Now, I can't wait to go to NY, and try them both.

Edited by Wolfert, 12 June 2003 - 07:28 AM.

[mamster]

Okay, now I am extremely jealous that you New Yorkers have multiple cannelés to choose from, and absolutely no one sells them in Seattle. I guess I'm going to have to get some molds, now that nightscotsman is leaving town.

[nightscotsman]

I've never had them in the US, but the cannele I had in Paris - from several well respected patisseries - were not crisp on the outside. They were very dark brown and beautifully formed, but the crust was more chewy than crunchy.

[Wolfert]

In Bordeaux, caneles are considered at their most glorious 1 to 5 hours out of the oven when they are crusty on the outside and still ever so slightly warm within. As they stand they get a little soft and chewy on the outside. Most patissiers who have the time reheat them in a hot oven for 5 minutes so their shelf life can be extended

Rose Levy Beranbaum told me that one patissier she knew used to flame his canele with rum every 5 hours.
I have never tried it..

Pierre Herme's wife once complained that if a canele sits around too long "the texture gets so soft you can use one as a substitute for a sponge"

Edited by Wolfert, 12 June 2003 - 09:44 AM.

[trillium]

Okay, now I am extremely jealous that you New Yorkers have multiple cannelés to choose from, and absolutely no one sells them in Seattle. I guess I'm going to have to get some molds, now that nightscotsman is leaving town.

Or the next time you're in Portland come and eat them at Ken's. His version has a dark caramel colored slightly crunchy crust and is flavored with orange zest and maybe rum?

regards,
trillium

[nightscotsman]

So I baked a batch of canelés using Paula Wolfert's recipe today. Actually, I made two batches since I was curious to see if the unusual mixing technique specified by the recipe made a difference in the finished product. The first batch was made exactly following the Paula's recipe - blending the butter and flour in the food processor, adding the sugar, and heating the milk to only 183 F. I baked the canelés using copper molds coated with bee's wax melted with vegetable oil. Though the recipe says to bake for 1-3/4 to 2 hours at 400 F, I found them to be quite dark enough at 1-1/4 hours. They didn't rise at all (so I didn't have any problem with then popping out of the molds), and in fact shrank to smaller that before being baked.

I tasted the canelés after they had cooled to room temperature and the crust was quite hard and crisp, fairly similar to the Nancy Silverton recipe, but the inside was lighter and creamier than any version I tried so far. It was much more like a thick pastry cream enclosed in a hard shell than a little cake. Excellent!

The second batch I used a more conventional mixing technique: just whisking together the egg yolks, sugar and flour smoothed with a little cold milk, then bringing the milk and butter to a boil and whisking it while still hot into the egg/sugar mixture. The cooled batter was a little thinner than the first batch, but otherwise looked the same.

Other than not chilling the molds before pouring in the batter, I baked the second batch the same time and temp as the first. This time the canelés rose a little in the molds and didn't shrink quite as much, resulting in a slightly taller finished product. Cooled, the crust and interior were indistinquishable from the first batch. Both batches made 11 pastries.

While I still like the way the Silverton recipe rises a bit and makes a taller canelé, I really liked the light and creamy interior of Paula's version, so I may do some more testing to see if I can produce a version somewhere in between.

Thanks again for the recipe and the background info, Paula!

[mjc]

thanks for the report night. Those sound excellent.
Did you fill your molds to the top? (Oddly, I've found sometimes, where I fill the molds to influences whether they rise or don't.)
How much would you say they shrank?
Did your second bach rise taller than the molds?
I am looking foward to see where your experiments take you. Also looking forward to finishing up finals, so I can give the recipe a try.

Edited by mjc, 17 June 2003 - 06:08 PM.

[kitwilliams]

Interesting comments, NSM. Coincidentally I made Paula's canelés today as well!

I had one initial problem. Eleven canelés are not enough so I doubled Paula's recipe. Silly me, I forgot to think about the fact that I would be putting so much milk into the food processor and, of course, it leaked a bit! That's what I get for being greedy!

I'm interested to know how long you left your batter, NSM. I used mine at about the 30 hour mark. And I used my silicon flex molds, coated with beeswax/oil and frozen before filling them just barely below the top. Baked at 400, non-convection for 2 hours and 15 minutes (perhaps I need a new oven thermometer). As with nightscotsman's, these shrank nearly 1/2 inch. And, as Nancy Silverton's is my usual recipe also, they did look very much the same on the exterior, but shorter.

Nightscotsman hit the nail on the head: Paula's are so very creamy, custardy on the inside as opposed to Nancy's which seem more bread pudding-like to me. I like both very much but would like someone to tell me which are closer to the canelés de Bordeaux, or perhaps they even vary from shop to shop within the region (Paula: do Antoine's vary from other shops in Bordeaux?)? Tradition and authenticity are of the utmost importance to me when making regional specialties. I know, I know, I need to take a trip 'round France. Hmmm. There's an idea: a "Regional Pastries of France" tour. I'd be happy to coordinate the details if anyone is interested -- seriously!

But back to the canelés: I, too, would like the end product to be as tall as possible so look forward to hearing more of your experimentation, NSM.

Thanks again for sharing your dreamy, creamy recipe, Paula, and I'd love to know if you have the same shrinkage troubles. If not, what do you think is causing it? If so, how do you think it could be rectified?

[nightscotsman]

thanks for the report night.  Those sound excellent. 
Did you fill your molds to the top?  (Oddly, I've found sometimes, where I fill the molds to influences whether they rise or don't.)
How much would you say they shrank?
Did your second bach rise taller than the molds? 
I am looking foward to see where your experiments take you.  Also looking forward to finishing up finals, so I can give the recipe a try.

I filled the molds to within about 1/8 of an inch from the top. The first batch didn't rise at all during baking and shrank about 1/8 of an inch in height when done. The second batch rose to just above the rim and shrank back to the same height as the raw batter.

From my experiments with other recipes, it seems that the quantity of egg whites is the biggest factor in expansion and rise, so I think I might try a test using the ingredients and quantities in Paula's recipe for everything but the eggs, and use the 3 yolks and 1/2 a white from the Silverton recipe.

And kitwilliams: I also had some food processor leakage problems even with the regular sized batch, so I think I'll stick with the more common bowl and whisk method.

I chilled the batter for about 24-25 hours before baking. The second batch had an extra hour in the fridge, but I can't imagine such a short time making a big difference.

[Wolfert]

First, I want to thank you for testing the recipe. I really appreciate the thoughtful comments.

The recipe:
I worked very hard to copy Patissier Antoine's caneles. A few friends from the region agree that I have come close. His caneles are creamy on the inside and crusty on the outside. A hefty version of creme brulee comes to mind. Most Bordeaux bakeries make a similar version: the texture is the same; the flavoring varies with many using a little orange or orange blossom water instead of rum or along with teh rum.
One bakery, Le canelé Baillardran, (Spécialité de Bordeaux - http://www.canele.com/), is very commercial and has canele stands all over the city. I suspose you could say he is the starbucks of bordeaux.His version is breadier in texture and longer lasting. In fact, he is able to mail his caneles all over the world.

the shrinkage:
All the caneles I saw in Bordeaux shops and homes used the 3-ounce size mold and all baked to a tad shorter than the original mold. Personally, I didn't see this slight shrinkage as a problem since they are eaten out of hand. I can see where this would be a problem with a smaller mold.


shrinkage could be from not letting the batter rest long enough. I usually wait two days or freeze and defrost slowly. ON the other hand, I have noticed 1/4 inch shrinkage when I use some of my molds. I have two types of copper molds: 12 purchased in Bordeaux; another 8 from jbprince. I've examined them carefully and have noticed that the ones from Bordeaux are a bit narrower. i.e. more elegant. The ones from jbprince have an ever so slight flare at the top. The caneles baked in the narrow molds don't seem to rise as much as those baked in the other molds. Can anyone explain this to me?
(Www.culinarion.com sells the Bordeaux canele molds.) I suspose there is a patent on the bordeaux style molds, or why else do they do this?

THanks to Kit , I purchased the silicon flex molds from Bridges. I have tried the gastroflex and du bayer and found them worthless. Due to the heftier weight of these new ones from Bridges, I produced a very acceptable canele, albeit some strange striping along the crevices. There was little shrinkage.

food processor:
Antoine uses a huge mixer to combine his batter, so I just followed suit with my food processor.. I think it efficiently combines the flour and butter, then quickly works in the eggs, etc etc ..Homemakers in Bordeaux do it all by hand.

Again, thank you so much for trying out my recipe.

"The canelé is an artisanal product, so sometimes it doesn't
come out perfectly," ----Antoine, Patissier of Bordeaux

Edited by Wolfert, 18 June 2003 - 08:30 AM.

[jeffG]

I have joined this site because of my renewed interest in Canneles.
Years ago, with my now wife we first had these canneles at Dean and Deluca in New york at the bakery counter, they were from Bouley bakery. This was truly love at first bite which prompted buying 6 copper molds and researching recipes on the net. I was pretty successful, if a bit inconsistent with the results. The taste and texture were always right on, but the shape would sometimes, often more time than not be altered by the accumlation of melted butter in the bottom creating a pocket and disfiguring these otherwise perfect creatures. The molds were a bit hard to clean too. At any rate I quit baking them as well as others here. Recently I decided to give it another shot, this time using a hint a fellow baker gave me about using beeswax to coat the molds as they did in France. Low and behold with the new search query: cannele/beeswax, I find all these other links talking the two up. Next mission, Though we now live in another country, I was able to find 'cera de abejas' at a craft shop nearby, They thought I was loco, because I wasn't making soap or candles. End of story, Glad I found this site of "fellow Cannellers" At one time you could talk about these as if you'd traveled to far off places and found gold, because nobody knew of them. Even better if you made them. Will post results good or bad.
Until then, Ciao,
jeff

Edited by jeffG, 18 June 2003 - 04:57 PM.

[Wolfert]

[

I forgot to think about the fact that I would be putting so much milk into the food processor and, of course, it leaked a bit!  That's what I get for being greedy! 

Kim: I've done that. Only once! Try adding half the milk then quickly pour egg-flour-milk through a strainer into a bowl. Reheat the rest of the milk for a second and add stirring.

Edited by Wolfert, 18 June 2003 - 09:09 AM.

[nightscotsman]

I have joined this site because of my renewed interest in Canneles.

Welcome jeffG! Glad you found our little group of obsessives.

Let us know if you have any questions, and be sure check out the rest of the forums for other great food topics.

[I82Much]

I think I've found something new to try.. thanks

[kitwilliams]

I love it when this topic comes back to the forefront!

I made Paula's canelés in commercial convection last week. I'd only ever baked them in a conventional oven prior to this. I still used my silicon flex molds, baked them at about 375 for an hour and ten or so. They were gorgeous. A beautifully even mahogany color. Chewy, crisp exterior, creamy interior.

Today I made Neil's (or Hermes'!) chocolate canelés for the first time. They are awfully yummy. Tell me if they came out properly, Neil, as the crust is a more tender but crisp crust as opposed to the chewy/crisp texture of the the traditional canelés. In convection at 360 they baked for about an hour and five minutes. They rose straight up like a souffle at first but settled down to just even with the tops of the molds. I lowered the temp due to the convection but next time I'll use the 375 called for and see what happens.

[nightscotsman]

Today I made Neil's (or Hermes'!) chocolate canelés for the first time. They are awfully yummy. Tell me if they came out properly, Neil, as the crust is a more tender but crisp crust as opposed to the chewy/crisp texture of the the traditional canelés. In convection at 360 they baked for about an hour and five minutes. They rose straight up like a souffle at first but settled down to just even with the tops of the molds. I lowered the temp due to the convection but next time I'll use the 375 called for and see what happens.

Yeah, that sounds about right. They are really good, but I think I like the traditional better myself. And they are actually Frederic Bau's recipe.

[kitwilliams]

Yeah, that sounds about right. They are really good, but I think I like the traditional better myself. And they are actually Frederic Bau's recipe.

I'm with you on your feelings about the traditional canelés. A pilgrimage to Bordeaux is in order!

Along the lines of chocolate canelés (but they are not at all the same thing), have you tried Nancy Silverton's Crotin de Chocolat or, as they call them at La Brea Bakery, Bouchon? They are in the muffin section of Nancy's pastry book. Absolutely luscious, not too sweet chocolate treats. They are yeast-leavened but very easily thrown together. And I always bake them in canelés molds which is why the chocolate canelés reminded me of them.

[Msk]

These sound so good, I'm in. However Paula's link doesn't seem to work anymore. Can someone PM me the recipe? Any help would be appreciated.


Msk

[Wolfert]

Sorry, but I took down the link when the book was published. . You can check the full recipe which includes all the tricks and caveats. In the meantime, here is an abbreviated version which might be all you need.



1/2 vanilla bean split with grains scraped into bowl or 1 teaspoon pure vanilla
1 scant cup superfine sugar
2 cups whole milk
3/4 cup cake flour
2 tablespoons firm sweet butter, diced
4 large egg yolks
Pinch of salt
1 tablespoon dark rum

10 seasoned cannele molds.

Prepare the molds in advance: spray the ridged interior of the cannele molds with "white oil" (a combination of bee's wax and tasteless oil---you can get this at any farmer's market where they sell honey); and set in the freezer until ready to fill.

Combine sugar, flour and butter in a mixing or food processor. Mix well.Add the egg yolks, one by one, then add salt and milk heated to 183 degrees F. Mix completely then pour through a really fine strainer. Flavor with vanilla and rum . Cool, cover and refrigerate up to three days.

When ready to bake preheat the oven to 400 degrees. F. Place molds on a baking sheet about 1 1/2 inches apart. Gently paddle not whisk the batter to recombine then fill each mold almost to the top. Place on the bottom oven shelf and bake for 1 1/2 to 2 hours until really dark brown or black. Convection oven timing is about 1 1/4 hours.

To remove a cannele from its mold: rap the crown directly onto something really hard. It should drop out If it doesn't, rap again or use a thin skewer to loosen the sides. Cool on racks for at least 2 hours.

Edited by Wolfert, 23 June 2004 - 05:50 PM.

[Msk]

Thanks Paula.

Your book is on the top of "to purchase list." Thanks for the recipe in the meantime.

These sound so up my alley, I can't believe I have never heard of them let alone tried them.

Msk

[SethG]

I can't believe I missed this thread the first, second and third time it came around.

Admission: I have never tasted a canele. But this thread has inspired me. I will make a special trip to Balthazar to taste a proper specimen, and then I will bake some myself.

This is one of those wonderful things about food-- there are so many avenues down which to wander. There's always some new idea just sitting there, frequently already on your bookshelf, waiting to introduce you to a whole new world.

[mjc]

take a trip to payard to taste a "proper" specimen

[FoodMan]

Williams Sonoma is selling their French made tin canelle molds for 10 for 4 of them (normally they are $23). are they worth it? Or should I just get the Silicon Flex ones?

Elie

[Carolyn Tillie]

Williams Sonoma is selling their French made tin canelle molds for 10 for 4 of them (normally they are $23). are they worth it? Or should I just get the Silicon Flex ones?

Elie

That must be a store-only deal. The website shows nothing other than the silicon ones...

By Paula's accounts, (if memory serves -- I could be wrong here) they should be tin-lined copper. I would think that tin alone might be too thin.

I've had reasonable success with the silicon, but I've also tasted ones that Paula has made in her copper molds and they are far superior to my silicone ones.

[Wolfert]

Whatever you buy, just be sure it isn't aluminum. You can use nordicware, silicone, or best of all--tin-lined copper for successful canneles.

Thanks for the kind words about my canneles.

[nightscotsman]

Whatever you buy, just be sure it isn't aluminum. You can use nordicware, silicone, or best of all--tin-lined copper for successful canneles.

Thanks for the kind words about my canneles.

Actually, the mini aluminum molds I got in France work just fine - results almost indistinguishable from the tin lined copper. I've never been able to get good results from silicon molds, though I've tried a couple different brands. Something about the way they are all attached at the top keeps them from baking evenly in a conventional oven.

[Wolfert]

I am really happy to hear that the aluminum molds do work. I was told that the crunchy exterior just never happened.

Or are you referring to those beautiful chocolate canneles you posted awhile?