62 replies to this topic

[molto e]

I am sure that she has Americanized the recipe ingredients as La Ratte potatoes are rare over here. The process in which to make them of vigorously whipping in the butter rather than slowly incorporating it was really what I was refering to.

Mash Away,

Molto E

[degusto]

The recipes in the French Robuchon books call for the butter to be stirred (remuer) into the mash and the mash, after the milk has been added, to be whipped (fouetter) in order to incorporate air into it.

[bleudauvergne]

Hey, I have never considered the mashed potato with such intensity! Thank you for this thread!

Robuchon reccomends the moulin à legumes, a ricer (?), using the finest disk. The recipe in his book Le Meilleur et le plus simple de la pomme de terre lists the following ingredients for 6 servings:

1 kg. potatoes (ratte or BF 15)
250g. of butter
20-30 cl whole milk
coarse sea salt

He advises that the potatoes be all the same size to ensure they all cook evenly, advises against the blender at all costs, and says choosing new potatoes is a mistake because the mixture will turn out like paste. He says it's no mistake that the salting takes place in the beginning, in the water.

His method (I translate):

Wash but don't peel, and boil just covered in water that's been salted 10g. to the liter. Cook covered at a very slow boil for 20 to 30 minutes, until a knife cuts easily into one. Remove them from the water immediately and peel while warm. Pass them through the mill with the finest disk, into a big pot. Reduce the puree over low heat, stirring vigorously with a wooden spatula, for 4-5 minutes. Incorporate the cold butter little by little. At this point it is important to continue to stir this thoroughly and vigorously to get a smooth puree. Boil the milk and incorporate the hot milk vigorously into the puree until it is completely absorbed. He says If you want to make it even more light and refined, you can pass it through a tamis à toile tres fine.

Vigor. The key.

I think that when considering an author 'americanizing' a recipe, and considering their intentions, we should consider when it was done. Also we have to consider the style of the author. Today people want total authenticity in their recipes, but back in the day for some cookbook authors it was their mission to get people cooking French - I wonder if she just chose not to get into a long discussion of the potato type used in the original recipe, and why she's susbstituting it for something else, especially if that kind's not available? I haven't read Well's recipe. Can anyone clue me in about how far she actually strays from Robuchon's recipe?

[molto e]

Merci-Lucy

Molto E

[winemike]

The recipe with 250g butter for 1kg potato is the one he advertises when he's asked about the recipe for his otherworldly "puree de pommes de terre". Though, caught in a discussion about this recipe, Guy Savoy just laughed at him when Robuchon announced this ratio, adding that he (Guy Savoy) reckons a HALF/HALF butter/potato ratio. Robuchon just answered with a smile, pretty much acknowledging... that in the restaurant, it might be made "differently"...

[Ptipois]

The recipe with 250g butter for 1kg potato is the one he advertises when he's asked about the recipe for his otherworldly "puree de pommes de terre". Though, caught in a discussion about this recipe, Guy Savoy just laughed at him when Robuchon announced this ratio, adding that he (Guy Savoy) reckons a HALF/HALF butter/potato ratio. Robuchon just answered with a smile, pretty much acknowledging... that in the restaurant, it might be made "differently"... 

I'll second that hypothesis. It is quite possible that the restaurant recipe is different. I too have heard of a ration of half/half butter/potato from a reliable source.

[bleudauvergne]

A call to Robuchon is in order. If a chef's written recipe is not a reliable source I would assume that none would be.

[pim]

If a chef's written recipe is not a reliable source I would assume that none would be.

A chef's written recipe is hardly ever a reliable source. Everyone 'tweaks' their recipes ostensibly to 'adapt' to home cooking.

[Ptipois]

A chef's written recipe is hardly ever a reliable source.  Everyone 'tweaks' their recipes ostensibly to 'adapt' to home cooking.

Exactly. Or the chefs keep some precious details to themselves (which is particularly true of pastry chefs, but not only).

The "ratte" detail puzzles me. Of course the primitive "ratte" potatoes that used to be grown in private gardens in the South and Center of France were top quality, and probably good for purée. They sometimes reached large sizes that could make them suitable for mashing. But they are a rarity, and whoever should try to make a purée from the modern "rattes" (small, tough, slightly bitter little things that go green in no time) would end up with a sticky mess. Better choose a mealy potato like bintje or, if available, very large, organic charlottes.

[Bux]

Great chefs are always tweaking their recipes, or at least they always seem to be doing that. On the other hand, I've heard one chef advise a younger pastry chef to change at least one detail before giving out a recipe asked for by another pastry chef. His expanation was that this is simply how it's done. No one really expects to get the real recipe and they know they will have to tweak it to get the results they want. It's not the only story I've heard in that regard. Perhaps pastry chefs are worse because pastry is so much of a science.

[bleudauvergne]

Wow cutting the butter content down to 1/2 of that in the real recipe is certainly "tweaking" alright.

This all brings me to another question. Do you think that the recipes and techniques being taught, for example, at the Paul Bocuse Institute, could possibly be altered in some way? What about the Cordon Bleu? Where does the learning material come from?

[bleudauvergne]

Alright, I'm going to make some mashed potatoes. Ptipois, I am going to follow your advice and do some investigation into the best potato to use. I'll start with the other potato in the recipe, BF15. What are the characteristics of the BF15, and are there any other names for it? Any insight would be appreciated!

Here is one website with a chart, and they say that neither the ratte nor the BF15 are good for puree. I do see the Bintje everywhere at the market. Perhaps a mix?

Potato Chart

[jackal10]

They are both yellow waxy potatoes,
You can make puree with them, but its not as light as that with starchy potatoes, although tastier, except that Binje is rather bland. Since they are so nice plain boiled, most prefer not to puree, bit boil (au vapeur) or use them cold for salads..

[woodburner]

I'm pretty well jacked up over this potato thread.

Seems like there is a line drawn in the sand, in potato variety between mashed, and puree.

So my question is this technique considered mashed, or pureed?


woodburner

Edited by woodburner, 03 December 2005 - 12:30 PM.

[bleudauvergne]

I'm pretty well jacked up over this potato thread. 

Seems like there is a line drawn in the sand, in potato variety between mashed, and puree.

So my question is this technique considered mashed, or pureed?


woodburner

Most likely depends on what language you're speaking...

[MobyP]

They are both yellow waxy potatoes,
You can make puree with them, but its not as light as that with starchy potatoes, although tastier, except that Binje is rather bland. Since they are so nice plain boiled, most prefer not to puree, bit boil (au vapeur) or use them cold for salads..

I think that was supposed to be 'the point' of Robuchon's choice - that he chose a potato not used for that purpose before.

I've used ratte several times to a very luscious effect, but it definitely changes the nature of the dish. You don't want to be eating half a pound of this stuff, even if you make it perfectly.

[bleudauvergne]

So... a mix, for the flavour. Yes?

[MobyP]

Might be worth trying. But again, I think it's worth thinking of the robuchon style as another dish altogether. It's almost a garnish, rather than a side dish.

Also, you have to use a tamis. A potato ricer will take you half-way, but will still leave you with grain-sized particles of potato. So, if you use Jack's potato technique, it's quite a bit of work to the ffinished dish. The good news is you can do it several hours before, then reheat it with the addition of boiling milk.

[bleudauvergne]

So the ratte choice in the recipe is not a purposeful misleading "tweak", it is a certain choice made based on the flavour of the potatoes, which calls for the second "tamis" treatement...

[bleudauvergne]

A chef's written recipe is hardly ever a reliable source.  Everyone 'tweaks' their recipes ostensibly to 'adapt' to home cooking.

Exactly. Or the chefs keep some precious details to themselves (which is particularly true of pastry chefs, but not only).

The "ratte" detail puzzles me. Of course the primitive "ratte" potatoes that used to be grown in private gardens in the South and Center of France were top quality, and probably good for purée. They sometimes reached large sizes that could make them suitable for mashing. But they are a rarity, and whoever should try to make a purée from the modern "rattes" (small, tough, slightly bitter little things that go green in no time) would end up with a sticky mess. Better choose a mealy potato like bintje or, if available, very large, organic charlottes.

Ptipois, do you know of anyplace where they may be still producing these large sized primitive rattes or are they long lost history?

[MobyP]

I regularly buy imported French Ratte potatoes from Borough market which are easily large enough - and fresh enough - to use for purees.

[Ptipois]

Alright, I'm going to make some mashed potatoes.  Ptipois, I am going to follow your advice and do some investigation into the best potato to use.  I'll start with the other potato in the recipe, BF15.  What are the characteristics of the BF15, and are there any other names for it?  Any insight would be appreciated!  

Here is one website with a chart, and they say that neither the ratte nor the BF15 are good for puree.  I do see the Bintje everywhere at the market.   Perhaps a mix? 

Potato Chart

BF15 are more suitable for purée than rattes are, but the problem is that finding good-quality BF15 is not easy. Organic shops will rather carry other varieties. Rattes for purée are a funny idea only a three-star chef could possibly have, or maybe it's a deliberate tweak. Both will yield a denser, stickier mass than regular bintjes or other mealy potatoes, and if you use a blender, even at low speed, you must be ready for potato glue. I'd choose (as I wrote) a large organic charlotte, when it has had time to develop properly as a good all-purpose potato. When bintjes are unavailable, of course.
Bintjes remain the best choice for me, though they have to be first-quality.

My very personal opinion is that Robuchon's purée may be very famous, but it is not the purée to end all purées. It is competition food, a bit show-offy with all that butter and mystery surrounding it, but I'll take a good home-made traditional French purée with a reasonable amount of butter, i.e. poor people's purée, any time. Robuchon-style purée (and star-chef purée in general) is different from the ancestral French purée. It is more like some kind of potato and butter sauce. It is also much less digestible, the main characteristic of a proper purée being its lightness on the stomach, and thus it is a less good accompaniment for main dishes (better as a dish on its own).

In old-time France, nobody at home could ever afford to put so much butter in a purée anyway. In a poor household it would have been unthinkable, in a bourgeois household it would have been offending to the principles of home economy, in aristocratic households it would have been either one or the other depending of how well the family did financially (from hereditary poverty with holes in the château roof to the benefits of clever business during the early 19-century restoration). So Robuchon-style potato purée is clearly a modern, cheffy, desincarnated avatar of the old French dish.

And so, to get back to more modest but un-grandcheffed French purée, it is based on bintjes, milk, and butter. Large chunks of peeled bintjes simmered in a mixture of milk and a little water until tender. Salt added in the end. Drain well, rice in moulin à légumes while still hot (NEVER a blender and careful with the hand masher, unless you use it quite vertically, with no sideways or circular motion. Though with bintjes you don't have to be concerned with the potatoes getting gooey.). First add a little cooking liquid while mixing with a fork, then add butter in the end, I'd say 1/10 to 1/5 butter to the potato mass. Don't overmix, and add lots of pepper. And here comes the secret...

The real purpose of bintjes in purée is indeed their relative tastelessness and their unique texture. Other potatoes (especially rattes) just have too much flavor and make up for this "potato sauce" aspect I described above. They soak in the butter, so you have to use an indecent lot of it. The bintje actually carries the butter flavor much better than any other potato, and that's exactly what lies at the heart of French-style purée: lightness, mildness, a comfortable fluffy smoothness (but not too much of it), and butter as a flavoring, not as the basic principle of the recipe with a little potato to give it body. When the purée is made that way, the butter taste is experienced "on top" of the potato basis and is not overpowering, but it is very present, much more than in the chic recipe. It is then recommended to use the best farm butter, made from raw milk, that you can find. A purée made with bintjes will enable you to taste the difference, a purée made with sticky potatoes won't. As a result, you don't have to add much of it.

Edited by Ptipois, 05 December 2005 - 07:07 AM.

[Ptipois]

So... a mix, for the flavour.  Yes?

I would not recommend a mix since Robuchon-style purée and just purée are two distinctly different dishes. I think Moby's post (which I hadn't read yet when I sent mine) summed up my lengthy point very concisely.
If you want robuchon purée, use the potatoes robuchon recommends. If you want true french purée, use bintjes or another starchy equivalent.

[Ptipois]

Ptipois, do you know of anyplace where they may be still producing these large sized primitive rattes or are they long lost history?

I've never seen those large rattes on markets. Only in private vegetables gardens in Auvergne and the Cévennes. They taste definitely very different from the modern mass-cultivated rattes (which I loathe).

[getxo]

Would someone be kind enough to inform me who currently runs the kitchen (chef de cuisine) in L'Atelier (Paris)?

[molto e]

Would someone be kind enough to inform me who currently runs the kitchen (chef de cuisine) in L'Atelier (Paris)?

Chef Erick Lecerf

[PaulaJK]

I am not aspiring to work in Robuchon's kitchen.....but
would love to make a 'kind-of batch' in advance for a dinner
party. Will I run into major problems if I peel the potatoes
first? Then break them up w. a hand held mixer as I
dry them over a low flame..i.e. no ricer? I read above
about holding after the butter process...but would it
be possible to hold butter/milk completed recipe in
a bain marie for 3 hours?

[russ parsons]

many years ago when michel richard started using this puree, i did something on it. i started with the smaller amount of butter and it just didn't have the same silkiness. when i called him to ask him about it, he said with an almost inexpressible sadness "pas de beurre; pas de beurre." for the record, his version used equal weights butter and potato and no milk or cream. it was incredibly luxurious--not really about the potatoes, but about a new texture for butter.

[MobyP]

Paula - you'll have choose what potato type you want, and what proportion of butter, but follow this method and you should be okay.

[digito]

Hi,

When I did this. I got a problem that's not described (or i missed).

steps:
1. cook and mash potato
2. boil and stir potato paste to reduce water.
3. Add cold butter piece by piece.
4. Add hot milk to adjust stickiness

===>
When cold butter is incorporated into to potato paste. Is heating stopped or not? because it takes quite long for cold butter to melt and the potato may getting cold too. Heating the paste may liquefy the butter.
When adding milk how's the temperature of the paste. Same situation as above.

if potato:butter is only 4:1 or 2:1. There is no problem. But when I tried 1:1, it just like incorporating a small measure of potato into lots of butter. The temperature of potato and butter becomes a series problem. :(

Edited by digito, 11 October 2009 - 06:57 PM.