513 replies to this topic

[ulterior epicure]

Oh right... that would work too!

u.e.

[Sneakeater]

Believe me, it more than works!

Edited by Sneakeater, 24 April 2006 - 01:41 PM.

[ckkgourmet]

But it really was the most decadent condiment I've ever met--I'll give Liebrandt that! They gave me a substantial amount of it too. My friend and I were spreading it on everything bread-like that we could get our hands on. (That reminds me, I thought the bread service was quite nice at Gilt).

Perhaps "decadent" is an understatement for the truffle butter and foie gras--"obscene" (in a good way) might be more suitable!

[ulterior epicure]

But it really was the most decadent condiment I've ever met--I'll give Liebrandt that!

Don't worry, I'm not doubting that!

As for beautiful butters, I have been tempted on a occasion to just go for the spoon... if it weren't for my mother's stern face appearing on who/whatever is across from me shaking her head, I might have actually downed a few pats straight-up... must try Liebrandt's olive oil butter - that'll be a new one... can't wait to see what he chucks into my version!

u.e.

[Sneakeater]

My friend and I were spreading it on everything bread-like that we could get our hands on.

We were, too. It was sort of comical the way we were looking for things we could put it on.

(That reminds me, I thought the bread service was quite nice at Gilt).

You're right. If I didn't mention that in my report, I should have.

Edited by Sneakeater, 24 April 2006 - 11:46 AM.

[ckkgourmet]

As for beautiful butters, I have been tempted on a occasion to just go for the spoon... if it weren't for my mother's stern face appearing on who/whatever is across from me shaking her head, I might have actually downed a few pats straight-up... must try Liebrandt's olive oil butter - that'll be a new one... can't wait to see what he chucks into my version! 
u.e.

I have been known to eat butter "raw". At Gilt, u.e., you will be sorely tempted to defy your mom's memory!

[oakapple]

Is it your impression, oakapple, that the place is hurting? When I went to Gilt, it was quite late on a weeknight. It wasn't necessary a representative example of the restaurant's business.

I have no hard facts, but I would guess thay are struggling. Saturday night should be the money night at this type of restaurant, and while they were doing a decent business, they weren't full. I've just checked on OpenTable, and you can get a reservation any night this week.

[tan319]

Is it your impression, oakapple, that the place is hurting? When I went to Gilt, it was quite late on a weeknight. It wasn't necessary a representative example of the restaurant's business.

I have no hard facts, but I would guess thay are struggling. Saturday night should be the money night at this type of restaurant, and while they were doing a decent business, they weren't full. I've just checked on OpenTable, and you can get a reservation any night this week.

How many times does Per Se turn their tables over on a Saturday nite?
Does the tasting menu take around 2 or 3 hours?
Not withstanding service problems(when they happen), it's been my impression that Liebrandt is trying to offer a more specialized cuisine & service then many in NYC.
Also, from my experience, Friday nite is usually better then Saturdays, in general.
Not trying to be contrary, although I think it's a stretch to assume theres a "struggle" involved at 80% capacity?
Thanks for the reports, the food looks and sounds great.

[Sneakeater]

Also, don't they have weirdly restrictive seating requirements (to prevent undue stress on the kitchen)? Don't they pretty much refuse to seat you at 7 or even 8, instead preferring 6 (or 6:30 if you beg nicely) and then 9? I don't think I'm alone in finding a 6 o'clock seating a bit rough.

Anyway, in that case, you'd expect the restaurant to be pretty empty for the first seating, and to fill up later. But the place still misses out on what I'd consider the prime seating time. So it may be that some of their problems (if indeed they're having any) are of their own creation.

Edited by Sneakeater, 24 April 2006 - 01:35 PM.

[tan319]

Also, don't they have weirdly restrictive seating requirements (to prevent undue stress on the kitchen)?  Don't they pretty much refuse to seat you at 7 or even 8, instead preferring 6 or 6:30 and then 9?  I don't think I'm alone in finding a 6 o'clock seating a bit rough.

That's what I'm talking about.
At $145 to $160 + dollars + wine a person, I think GILT is more interested in delivering a quality experience, a hard thing to do these days...

Ahh, didn't catch your edit...
Prime seating time...
You might have a point about that, maybe not.
It disturbs me to see "problems ( if they're indeed having any) are of their own creation" being floated out there.
It's very F-X news, isn't it?
At the least very 'net.
People said this kind of stuff about wd-50 not that long ago just because it wasn't packed like a Park Ave. South "scene" joint at 6:30 or 7:00 on a Sunday night.

[oakapple]

But it really was the most decadent condiment I've ever met....

And, to correct my earlier comment, it was truffle butter, not olive butter.

[oakapple]

How many times does Per Se turn their tables over on a Saturday nite?
Does the tasting menu take around 2 or 3 hours?
Not withstanding service problems(when they happen), it's been my impression that Liebrandt is trying to offer a more specialized cuisine & service then many in NYC.
Also, from my experience, Friday nite is usually better then Saturdays, in general.
Not trying to be contrary, although I think it's a stretch to assume theres a "struggle" involved at 80% capacity?
Thanks for the reports, the food looks and sounds great.

I'm no expert on restaurant economics, but there are at least half-a-dozen restaurants in the city that are trying to compete at the same level of luxury, so I think one can make comparisons. When the restaurant has tables readily available every night of the week, I would presume they're having some struggles. I wouldn't compare them to WD-50, where the rents must be a lot lower.

I think Per Se gets two turns at most of the tables. Just like Gilt, Per Se doesn't offer 8pm reservations except to VIPs, since those tables can't turn. The difference is that Per Se fills every available slot, and Gilt doesn't.

[ckkgourmet]

Although there is also the ADNY model, which apparently means one seating per table per night.

[tan319]

Although there is also the ADNY model, which apparently means one seating per table per night.

I think Liebrandt is modeling GILT more after that Ducasse/Euro concept.
I've also been under the impression that GILT is being funded by rather deep pocketed private investors who aren't that interested in making money (as strange as that may seem.)rather then the hotel itself.

[rich]

I've also been under the impression that GILT is being funded by rather deep pocketed private investors who aren't that interested in making money (as strange as that may seem.)rather then the hotel itself.

Tan - if you know investors who are willing to put up cash and aren't interested in making money, I have a few projects I'm trying to get off the ground. Please let me know who they are.

[ckkgourmet]

I had heard that the "selfless" investors in question were British in origin. Perhaps rich should go to London with his ideas?

[ASM NY]

I agree. Don't think that there are a lot of investors that will put up that kind of money as charity. Not so much that they are not expecting to realize a quick return on their investment, but more along the lines that as an ongoing concern, a restaurant of this caliber can be very expensive. The issue is not only putting the money down to start the restaurant, but the willingness to put more money in if the restaurant is running negative cash flow.

With that said, I am not getting an impression that the restaurant is in trouble or bleeding. Also it's important to bear in mind that it is part of a high end hotel, and it must get more than its fair share of guests as clientele as well.

Maybe it's a question for another topic, but does anyone have an idea what kind of level of capacity (on a weekly basis) a restaurant of this type need to break even?

[ckkgourmet]

With that said, I am not getting an impression that the restaurant is in trouble or bleeding. Also it's important to bear in mind that it is part of a high end hotel, and it must get more than its fair share of guests as clientele as well.

Maybe it's a question for another topic, but does anyone have an idea what kind of level of capacity (on a weekly basis) a restaurant of this type need to break even?

I want to know the answer to your question too. But I wanted to second your intuitions about the hotel environment. It isn't just a matter of drawing hotel guests, although that's a big part of things. I say this because I remember reading that ADNY was made considerably more feasible for A. Ducasse because of a nice arrangement with the hotel itself. I've also heard that if a hotel needs a good restaurant, the hotel is sometimes willing to pay some of the costs involved, including swallowing some of the rent and shouldering part of the renovation budget.

In the case of Gilt, the historic nature of the Villiard Houses meant that Le Cirque 2000 could not tamper with things too much. Getting that junk from Le Cirque (an aesthetic catastrophe, if you ask me) out was probably quite simple. This is because the historical regulations have forced both restaurants to renovate using "additive" rather than invasive things (think of the strange purple sculpture in Gilt's bar). You may also recall the strange poster-like reproduction (looks tacky too) of a 19th painting by Abbey which is housed, in all places, at Yale. It ornaments the wall of the main dining room. One last example is the strange floor which Bruni noted looked a bit temporary. I bring up these examples merely to illustrate that the renovations were not about infrastructure in the public areas (I don't know about the kitchen)--so perhaps Gilt didn't cost as much as one might suppose it should?

Edited by ckkgourmet, 25 April 2006 - 09:32 AM.

[ASM NY]

I agree that it is important in the eyes of hotel management to have a good restaurant in the hotel besides of potential business that may come from guests, and that they are probably willing to foot part of the bill to run the restaurant. At the same time, a significant percentage of hotel revenues come from food and beverage, so it must be more than just cosmetic.

I am just speculating here, but my guess is that a place like Gilt was not only very expensive to put together, but also in its day to day operations. I am not sure ADNY is a good comparison, all his main restaurants are in hotels, and ADNY opened in NY with the expectation that it would be a huge hit, so perhaps it was at the time, worth the investment. I don't think the same can be said about Gilt as far as initial expectations are concerned.

[tan319]

I've also been under the impression that GILT is being funded by rather deep pocketed private investors who aren't that interested in making money (as strange as that may seem.)rather then the hotel itself.

Tan - if you know investors who are willing to put up cash and aren't interested in making money, I have a few projects I'm trying to get off the ground. Please let me know who they are.

I said "aren't THAT interested in making money" and of course I meant right off the bat.

I certainly wish I knew those kinds of investors, I have just ONE project I'd like to lift off!

Hey, the main thing I'm concerned about is not seeing a bunch of speculative negative junk about this restaurant or any for that matter, being thrown around loosely.
It's too fucking hard these days to get a decent shake and the 'net is like the worst of all mediums sometimes for this kind of stuff.

[gaya]

I've also been under the impression that GILT is being funded by rather deep pocketed private investors who aren't that interested in making money (as strange as that may seem.)rather then the hotel itself.

Tan - if you know investors who are willing to put up cash and aren't interested in making money, I have a few projects I'm trying to get off the ground. Please let me know who they are.

I said "aren't THAT interested in making money" and of course I meant right off the bat.

I certainly wish I knew those kinds of investors, I have just ONE project I'd like to lift off!

Hey, the main thing I'm concerned about is not seeing a bunch of speculative negative junk about this restaurant or any for that matter, being thrown around loosely.
It's too fucking hard these days to get a decent shake and the 'net is like the worst of all mediums sometimes for this kind of stuff.

There are know ivestors of Gilt. It is owned by the Sultan of Brunei. It is true, they are not trying to make a single profit. With the Union wages and hours worked in a restuarant of this concept it is nearly impossible to make a profit.

[ASM NY]

There are know ivestors of Gilt.  It is owned by the Sultan of Brunei.  It is true, they are not trying to make a single profit.  With the Union wages and hours worked in a restuarant of this concept it is nearly impossible to make a profit.

Please forgive me for asking the obvious, but if not for a profit, why are they investing in it? Don't get me wrong, I like the place a lot, and I hope it does very well. But based on what you are saying, should we assume that if it were empty every night, that it will never close down?

I don't know enough of the financial aspect of restaurants to say whether a place like this can or cannot make money, but I would be inclined to think that if it were full every day, that it would make a nice profit.

And to reiterate, I am not implying that the place doesn't do well, or that it loses money, as I said, I like the place a lot. But I am having trouble understanding what the motivation would be for the Sultan to finance a place like this.

[Fat Guy]

There are lots of reasons to invest in a business other than to make money on that business. Often it's a loss leader -- it may be a money-losing operation but it may bring prestige and ultimately revenue to the property it's associated with. Or it may be a necessary service -- something that has to be offered otherwise people won't use the profitable services. Sometimes it's just fun -- if you have billions of dollars, you may just enjoy owning a really great restaurant. Occasionally someone even believes in something.

[rich]

There are know ivestors of Gilt.  It is owned by the Sultan of Brunei.  It is true, they are not trying to make a single profit.  With the Union wages and hours worked in a restuarant of this concept it is nearly impossible to make a profit.

That's terrific news. I'm in the Thoroughbred racing business and I know the Sultan also has interest in that area. If you will introduce me I'm sure we can make mutual Thorougbred investments in line with his current fiscal philosophy. And there is plenty of room to invest and open a top-rate dining facility at Belmont or Saratoga (the most prestigious racetrack in the world).

Edited by rich, 01 May 2006 - 06:26 AM.

[tan319]

I've also been under the impression that GILT is being funded by rather deep pocketed private investors who aren't that interested in making money (as strange as that may seem.)rather then the hotel itself.

Tan - if you know investors who are willing to put up cash and aren't interested in making money, I have a few projects I'm trying to get off the ground. Please let me know who they are.

I said "aren't THAT interested in making money" and of course I meant right off the bat.

I certainly wish I knew those kinds of investors, I have just ONE project I'd like to lift off!

Hey, the main thing I'm concerned about is not seeing a bunch of speculative negative junk about this restaurant or any for that matter, being thrown around loosely.
It's too fucking hard these days to get a decent shake and the 'net is like the worst of all mediums sometimes for this kind of stuff.

There are know ivestors of Gilt. It is owned by the Sultan of Brunei. It is true, they are not trying to make a single profit. With the Union wages and hours worked in a restuarant of this concept it is nearly impossible to make a profit.

That's a great pice of news!!!
The guy can just cook.
As F.G. says, sometimes people just need to spend some money , a lot of money.

[gaya]

Gilt losses money just opening the door. It is truley the closest michelin style restaurant in NY next to Ducasse. It only does 60 covers a night. I heard to GM that passed was a real pain in the ass. Very stubborn. His way or the high way. Gilt is making all the proper changes from service issues to food/ menu concepts to be a truley amazing experience. Bruni is a fucking moron for giving this place 2 stars. One other thing; do some research on who Sultan of Brunei is and you will understand whay money is really not the main objective for Gilt. The Hotel has 900 rooms....they made a profit of over $45 million dollars in 2005.

[rich]

Bruni is a fucking moron for giving this place 2 stars. 

Try not to hold your feelings or be vague on your thoughts. Feel free to say what's on your mind so there will be no misunderstanding of your posts.

[oakapple]

Gilt is making all the proper changes from service issues to food/ menu concepts to be a truley amazing experience.  Bruni is a fucking moron for giving this place 2 stars.

Well, my friend and I thought it was borderline 2-3. I gave it three on my blog, but it was a close call. It's nice to know they're "making all the proper changes," but Bruni had to review what it is, not what it might be down the line.

[Fat Guy]

Without going off on a huge tangent -- we could take this to another topic -- I'd like to note that I disagree with that statement. Newspaper restaurant reviews, based on visits immediately after opening, are by their nature based on a combination of what the reviewer has experienced and what the reviewer's experience says will naturally occur at the restaurant over the course of the next year or so. Given their track records, you can be sure that if Jean-Georges Vongerichten or Mario Batali opens a restaurant the reviewer will have the confidence to break to the higher star because it's predictable that minor glitches and imperfections will be addressed over time, whereas a newbie or limited-experience restaurateur won't get cut the same slack. Likewise, one's gut is a good guide to these things. Sometimes you can walk into a restaurant on day one and understand that, despite problems, this place is going to be in the top echelon -- it's possible to be wrong but over time your accuracy gets extremely good. Some restaurant reviewers will insist they review based only on the food in front of them, but it's not true -- you can read their reviews and easily demonstrate that the opposite is the case. And there's nothing wrong with that. One has to take into account all the information available, and one has to be aware that in most cases there will never be a re-review -- so you go out a little bit ahead in the hopes of giving your review a bit more longevity.

[oakapple]

I am familiar with the idea that a reviewer should cut a restaurant some slack in its early days, on the assumption that minor glitches will be smoothed out over time. I am not sure that Frank Bruni subscribes to that theory, except on rare occasions. Bruni gave the benefit of the doubt (and the higher rating) to Perry St and Del Posto. But I can recall a far larger number of reviews in which relatively minor complaints took a restaurant below its expected rating, even with an established chef at the helm. It's worth remembering that V Steakhouse, another Vongerichten creation, received an absolutely withering critique.

Given their track records, you can be sure that if Jean-Georges Vongerichten or Mario Batali opens a restaurant the reviewer will have the confidence to break to the higher star because it's predictable that minor glitches and imperfections will be addressed over time, whereas a newbie or limited-experiened restaurateur won't get cut the same slack.

Even if Frank Bruni thinks that way, I suspect that Paul Liebrandt (who ranks somewhere between a novice and Vongerichten/Batali stardom) was not somebody who would qualify for a free pass.