78 replies to this topic

[lizziee]

This discussion started on the General thread, but I am repeating it here as it really pertains to California. Also, we need the posts as there are not a lot of e-gullet members out west.
                                                                                               

"I have never found LA to be a particularly great food town, except for the hey day of the late 80's and early 90's. Unfortunately, I find that most people care more about who is eating next to them than what is on the plate. Either that or insisting that their salmon be broiled, sauce on the side - caesar salad hold the dressing." (lizziee)


hollywood responded with his list of restaurants:
                                                                                                         
"On a good day, Bel Air Hotel, Chinois, Diaghilev, The Ivy's, Joe's, Jozu, Yujean Kang, La Cachette, Patina, Shiro and Spago are all capable of turning out a really satisfying meal.  In the middle range, the same is true of Axe, Angeli Caffe, the Bizou's, Mimosa and R-23.  At the interesting lower end, good food can be had at Bombay Cafe, El Tepeyac, Guelaguetza, Kruang Tedd, La Bonita, Palms Thai, Phillippe's, Porto's, Ruen Pair, Sanamluang, Say Cheese, Thai American Express Cafe, Yabu, Yuca's and Zankou Chicken.  Actual mileage may vary.  Past successes are no guarantee of future results.

hollywood, I am not trying to be contentious. I really wanted to know how you view the LA culinary scene. We tend to eat out at the higher end restaurants so I am not familiar with the low end/interesting and thank you for your list. However, I think that at the high end we are lacking. The talent could be there, but the dining public is not.

I would agree that Spago is excellent (particularly if you let Lee or Thomas cook a tasting menu). Chinois is always consistent and a favorite of ours. Patina just lost their chef (Walter is opening his own up north) and the new chef is somewhat timid in his seasoning. We were there Saturday night and I wish I had had some fleur de sel with me. I have not eaten at Joe's in a long while, but my son ate their two weeks ago and loved it. Alex is new, but looks promising from our one meal there. Mark Peel at Campanile can do an extraordinary meal if you let him devise a tasting menu. Water Grill downtown is doing wonderful things with fish. I have had my ups and downs with La Cachette and Jozu - consistency has been a real problem. Melisse which gets a lot of buzz has been a disaster and very expensive. I have not eaten at Shiro or Yujean Kang in Pasadena as it is a very long drive for us. I did try Yujean Kang when it was in Hollywood and fair would be the best way to describe it - I must have been in the majority because it has been closed.

But the bottom line is that in an area with such a huge population, our top end restaurants are few. So many of our good chefs got fed up with the LA scene and left - Michel Richard (Citrus), Thomas Keller, Michel Blanchet (L'Ermitage), Andreas Kistler, Walter (Patina), Masa (Ginza) just to name a few.

[hollywood]

If it's buzz you want, Josie has the buzz.  Add departed for the North chefs: Ken Frank.  Last I heard, Masa hadn't left just yet, but as a practical matter his tariff insulates him from most diners. But there will be more.  Tracht left Jozu, but I hear the new chef is good.  I'm trying to recall Tracht's new spot--also gets buzz.  There's Lucques.  Nick & Stef's is starting to get good WOM.  Shiro is actually in South Pas, so it's closer than you think.  Kang just could not seem to attend to 2 spots (oddly, he was going to do his WEHO place in Frank's old Le Toque but the feng shui wasn't right).  He's pretty good with Chinese fusion and has lots of good wine in Old Town.

You refer to the "dining public" and here you may be on to something.  Well to do Angelenos seem to have private chefs.  So, maybe the good meals are when you are dining private at some mogul's place.

Cheers!

[lizziee]

hollywood,

Actually what I don't want is buzz or wow. That is what I meant by LA diners caring more about who is sitting next to them. That is the opposite of what I care about in a good restaurant. I just want good/great food, served well. Also, I find LA diners to be fickle - everyone rushes to the new "in" restaurant, only to rush next month to the new darling of the  "in" circuit.

My husband has eaten at Josie - she was at Saddle Peak Lodge and said it was OK. Suzanne Tracht is at Jars. My son and I had her "famous" fried clams and we both ended up spending the night in the bathroom. The chef from L'Orangerie has just left - another LA deserter. Alain Giraud (from Citrus) is suppose to open soon - he is a wonderful chef and I do have high hopes. I have heard good things about Lucques but have only been once, about a year ago. Masa (Ginza) is an experience, but you have to hock just about everything you own to eat there. When he first started he was innovative, extraordinary and almost worth the price. Now, he has settled into the LA rut and hasn't been innovative in months. Maybe, that is why he will try his hand in New York. Personally, I think he will have a very hard time.

This is what I find so frustrating about LA. We are often stumped about where to go - when we are in Napa, San Francisco, New York, New Orleans, Paris - it seems we never have enough time to eat at all the places we want to try or have been to in the past.

[cabrales]

The chef from L'Orangerie has just left - another LA deserter.

lizziee -- Do you know what Ludovic Lefevre might have left L'Orangerie for?  

[lizziee]

Cabrales,

I don't know where he is going or why he left.

[Beachfan]

Sad to say, restaurants that thrive in LA would go bust in SF.  The major, unique contribution is in Pacific Rim/Sushi (Chinois, Jozu, Sushi Nozawa).

Patina, and Valentino disappointed.  I haven't given them a second chance (I love Pinot Bistro, though, Spichal's neighborhood place).

I haven't been to Jozu in a couple years; I heard the new chef is hitting their stride.  Matsuhisa used to be my favorite restaurnat in the world, now Nobu is distracted and his original place has suffered greatly.

Of course you can get a great meal here.  But, c'mon, it's the second largest (or third?) city in the US, with a lot of well heeled clientele.  The standards are low.

[hollywood]

This is what I find so frustrating about LA. We are often stumped about where to go - when we are in Napa, San Francisco, New York, New Orleans, Paris - it seems we never have enough time to eat at all the places we want to try or have been to in the past. >>
What you find frustrating is something of a blessing to me.  Since I am not rolling in disposable income, I don't feel I'm missing all that much at the high end (although I think you are overstating the case).  The finds, the joy are in the middle and at the low end.  First, try some lower end places.  Second, drive outside the 310 area code.  There's excellent Thai food.  There's good Oaxacan (in fact, you can get that even in 310).  The sushi's been acknowledged.  And we haven't even touched on the Chinese in the San Gabriel Valley or Korean barbecue, etc.  Try reading Meredith Brody in New Times.  Try reading Gold & Huneven in LA Weekly (check their list of faves that appears each week).  Check out the spots in Gold's book.  Ignore S. Irene for a few months.  There are 3 million people in this town and she's writing for (what?) 5,000 of them.
With respect to the size of the city, it's currently number 2 in the US, but will be number 3 behind Chicago if the Valley foolishly secedes.
There's good food here.  You have to look for it, sometimes in unexpected places.  Keep searchin'.

[lizziee]

hollywood,

I agree with you completely re Oaxacan, Chinese, Thai, Korean etc. However, I do not find these restaurants dining restaurants. We will use these restaurants as a place to eat not dine. We frequent these places when I don't feel like cooking. However, for us, we make dining a priority and a passion. When we go out to a restaurant, it is THE evening activity. My husband likes to bring his own wine and we spend about 3 hours or more in a restaurant. Also, high end dosn't always mean the most expensive i.e. L'Astrance of Paris or Bistro Jeanty in Napa.

I do thank you for your suggestions and will look up Brody, Gold and Huneven.

[hollywood]

While it's true that Astrance and Bistro Jeanty are not the most expensive, being around $80 a head, when you factor in the transportation costs it does get pricey.  And with Astrance, there's also the difficulty getting a table given the 30 day reservation policy and the fewer than 10 tables.  As long as you are spending the money to get to Napa, there's always The French Laundry and Le Toque.  And in Paris, well, you know the places.

[monkeymay]

Hi everyone, newbie here and a chef in LA. Interesting to hear about a need for fine dining - I never seem to have the time or the disposable income to gratify such a high end need. I agree with Hollywood - the more interesting places are off the beaten track without all the hype. Maybe it's easier for me to say that as I am a 4th generation local girl...It also seems to me (as a former private chef) that people here tend to spend their money in a more insular fashion, lots of private dinners with whatever their heart desires...

I like Luques, I think Suzanne does a great job, Diaghelev is good for an over the top experience, Pinot Bistro always yummy...went to JAR, couldn't stand the noise factor or decoration, place reminded me of the old City...have you been to Chadwick's? Ben Ford's doing good things with food and Govind is a friend, although I have to admit that at the end of the 6 course tasting we had I was bombed and woke up in the middle of the night starving (should have gone to Pink's afterward ) Have you been downtown to Zucca?
Hubby went first few days it was open, said at the time food needed work but room was beautiful (mucho decoration $$$ )I've heard it's improved..
Did not know Masa was moving to NYC- where?
Hubby and I used to eat at his first place in LA, Saba Ya located in a  minimall on the corner of Wilshire and Wilton, a million years ago. He used to tell us about the big plans he had, seems he's managed to attain them.

Glad to meet you guys.

Monkey

[Beachfan]

Welcome!  The California board is happenin'!  Whoo Hoo!

[monkeymay]

Glad to finally make someone happy...

[hollywood]

Curious about Zucca.  Was there a big clock or clockface?  I'm told that's one of Splichal's trademarks--one in every restaurant.

[monkeymay]

I have not been -hubby went. Being a designer I'm sure he noticed those things. Me - my face is usually stuck in my plate.

Monkey

[lizziee]

I agree with Hollywood - the more interesting places are off the beaten track without all the hype.  

Did not know Masa was moving to NYC- where?
Hubby and I used to eat at his first place in LA, Saba Ya located in a  minimall on the corner of Wilshire and Wilton, a million years ago. He used to tell us about the big plans he had, seems he's managed to attain them.

Monkey,

Glad to have you here and I second Beachfan's Yippee! for the California board.

It is not the "hype" restaurants that LA needs , we have enough of those, but we are lacking in fine dining that is prevalent in New York and San Francisco. It is a shame that we have so few fine dining restaurants that are interesting. I am not in favor of "high-end" to the exclusion of others, but I do feel that in a city as diverse and large as ours that we do not have that many "culinary destination" restaurants.

I couldn't agree with you more about Jars. I have yet to try Chadwick's, but it is on the list.

One place that is often overlooked is Rockenwagner - he does a wonderful tasting menu and Hans is a creative, hands-on chef. I have heard wonderful things about Aubergine in Newport Beach, but again I have not had the chance to go as yet.

As to Masa, we also started eating his food at Soba Ya. Even then, he tried to maintain exclusivity. If you didn't have a reservation, you couldn't get in. One night we were there and we were the only ones sitting at the sushi bar. Someone walked in without a reservation and they were refused service. Masa will be in New York in the new Time Warner building (I think that's the name) across from the Trump. Thomas Keller will also have The French Laundry in the building.

Monkey, glad to have you here. Welcome.

[monkeymay]

Lizziee - did you eat at the one that was tucked waaay in the corner of the mini mall (next to the 7/11) or the one that actually was on the corner of Wilshire/Wilton? Just curious. I know his second mini mall was quite a formal experience (shades of things to come) but the first place was really an unassuming local sushi bar. He always had  interesing cilentele - I remember the Japanese baseball team eating there during the '84 Olympics as well as Marlon Brando lurking around... We actually became friends for awhile - I remember going out to a few clubs with him, and he and hubby used to get drunk and get out their knives and chisels, shave the hair off their arms to show how sharp they were...
We lost contact with him after our first child was born. Seems he wasn't into dragging out the high chair at the new place like he was at the other. (Couldn't afford both a sitter and sushi at the time) Oh well...
I like Rockenwagner too - had a great white asparagus tasting there couple of seasons ago - my problem is I'm a Hollywood snob and hate driving to the Westside. (I've got friends who say the same thing about driving east of La Brea)

Thanks for the welcome - I look forward to more posts

Monkey

[lizziee]

Monkey,

We went to the one at the corner of Wilshire and Wilton. Compared to Ginza Sushi Ko, it was a steal. I wonder how New York will handle $400 a head without drink at lunch and $500 a head without drink at dinner.

Hans is still doing his white asparagus menu and it is equally as good as before. Obviously, we tend to stay more Westside, but we do venture out - Campanile, Patina, Water Grill, Lucques (not that often). David Rosoff (the GM at Michael's) is opening a new restaurant in Hollywood. They are in the building stage as of now.

Again, a mighty welcome.

[monkeymay]

Yeah, I know about that restaurant that David's doing. Hubby was supposed to be designer, they had a parting of ways. It's the old Red on Beverly Blvd. I'll be curious to see hoe long it takes them to get open.
Monkey

[monkeymay]

Yeah, I know about that restaurant that David's doing. Hubby was supposed to be designer, they had a parting of ways. It's the old Red on Beverly Blvd. I'll be curious to see hoe long it takes them to get open.
Monkey

[hollywood]

It is not the "hype" restaurants that LA needs , we have enough of those, but we are lacking in fine dining that is prevalent in New York and San Francisco. It is a shame that we have so few fine dining restaurants that are interesting. I am not in favor of "high-end" to the exclusion of others, but I do feel that in a city as diverse and large as ours that we do not have that many "culinary destination" restaurants.

So, by now you've had a chance to peruse Sunday's LA Times Magazine and note the 45 or so high end places Ms. Virbila deems worthy of our attention. Your thoughts?

[lizziee]

Irene's list has few high end restaurants noted because LA has so few. I think, hollywood, as you have correctly noted, LA has many low to middle-range good restaurants that serve excellent food. What we don't have are destination restaurants. I do not think the list is meant to be one of 3 and 4 star dining experiences, such as you would find in the New York Times or the San Francisco Chronicle. It is a list of places to get good food. For example, Ginza Susho-Ko and Father's Office are listed. The former is the most exclusive and expensive restaurant in LA, the later a bar to get great fries and a hamburger albeit from the last chef at Michael's. Another example would be Uncle Darrow's Cajun Creole eatery, a "boxy corner stand" with Spago.

The most, I can say, is that I agree that what is represented is excellent food, but is it fine dining, a "Michelin must experience restaurant list", I don't think so.

What do you think?

[hollywood]

I see what you mean. What about her "magnificient seven"?

[hollywood]

It is a list of places to get good food. For example, Ginza Susho-Ko and Father's Office are listed. The former is the most exclusive and expensive restaurant in LA, the later a bar to get great fries and a hamburger albeit from the last chef at Michael's.

Well, on reconsideration, not exactly. The format of the issue is SIV's favorite 7 hi ends, followed by 38 or so others (only exception would be the SGV Chinese) of the hi end sort, followed by "cheap eats, ~40 including Father's Office.
I guess if I understand what you mean by "fine dining" you are limited to Bel Air Hotel, Spago, L'Orangerie, Ritz Carlton's Grill, Valentino, Patina, The Belvedere, Diaghilev and possibly Saddle Peak Lodge. Of course, situations may vary depending on who the chef is.
Earlier you mentioned Chadwick. I'd say you probably want to go on a week night for a longer meal. It's not cheap and the food is good, but I don't think Ford has yet hit his stride. Thought the best part of the meal was some partially forgotten chocolate dessert. Service seems earnest but still learning.

[lizziee]

I see what you mean.  What about her "magnificient seven"?

hollywood,

I think Irene's "magnificent seven" is meant to point out new restaurants in the past year that she likes. They are certainly not representative of fine dining or hi-ends.
You asked me to comment on them and I will try to give you "my take."

Angelini Osteria - I have eaten Gino Angelini's food at Vincenti and I found it to be a hit or miss kind of thing. I will give his new place a try and look forward to real Italian food. Unfortunately Drago used to be wonderful, but it has slipped badly - soggy calamari, gluey risotto, over-cooked pasta.

Red Pearl Kitchen - Tim Goodell's fine dining restaurant in Newport Beach is suppose to be excellent. I have not eaten there as yet, but from our friends'reports, they were impressed. Red Pearl Kitchen is described as "fun and casual" probably what Southern Californians love the most.

Jar - I have eaten at Jar a number of times and inconsistency is again a huge problem. The last time I was there both my son and I became violently ill after eating her fried clams. The best thing on the menu was the steak.

Cobras and Matadors - We have eaten at "Cobras" when it was Boxer and loved Neal Fraser's cooking. We followed Neal, when he left, to head the kitchen at Jimmy's. He was also doing a fine job there. Unfortunately just as Jimmy's was hitting its stride, a lease dispute with the landlord forced Jimmy's closure. Brooke Williamson, the next chef at Boxer, was also doing a fine job. She is now at a little neighborhood bistro called Zax - good, simple bistro fare in a small, cosy space. Cobras is described as "less chef-driven" "in a casual environment" with "a menu of little dishes."

g. garvin's - I know nothing about Garvin so I can't comment, but again the description as a "late-night music industry hangout, where the soundtrack .... can veer from Mary J. Blige to Alicia Keys" doesn't sound like a food-driven restaurant.

Alex - I have eaten at Alex's and I think he is somewhat overstretched - trying to do too much. However, we enjoyed the meal (inconsistencies notwithstanding) and will certainly go back.

Max - Again I can't comment as I have never eaten his food.

hollywood,

I have certainly not in support of the idea that expensive restaurants = great dining. One of my absolute favorite restaurants is Bistro Jeanty which I would consider a destination restaurant. Campanile when Mark Peel is in the kitchen can be an evening of creative cuisine.

The list that you represented as fine dining: Bel Air Hotel, Spago, L'Orangerie, Ritz Carlton's Grill, Valentino, Patina, The Belvedere, Diaghilev are all expensive, but I don't think the expense merits them all as fine dining. Belvedere is mediocre, Patina just lost their chef and our last meal there 2 weeks ago was so underseasoned that I wish I had brought salt, Valentino is only good "if you let Piero devise the menu."

One other thought. I have spoken to a number of chefs who have given up on LA and their main complaint is that LA does not support a fine dining scene. They want to be creative, they want to "really cook", but the client won't allow them.

[hollywood]

The list that you represented as fine dining: Bel Air Hotel, Spago, L'Orangerie, Ritz Carlton's Grill, Valentino, Patina, The Belvedere, Diaghilev are all expensive, but I don't think the expense merits them all as fine dining.

lizziee,
I'm trying to get a fix on what you mean by fine dining. Originally, I thought you meant good food and service. Then, I thought you also included a place where you could bring your own wine(s) and spend an evening. This latter criterion suggests hotel dining. Now, as you speak favorably of Bistro Jeanty as a destination restaurant, coupled with your clear admiration for New York and San Francisco, I'm inclined to think you are like Marco Polo and perhaps prefer your meals on the road. Obviously, a local restaurant can't provide the change of environment, the relief from the stress of daily activity, the feeling that you can just relax because you have nothing else making demands on your time that a vacation situation can. Given those thoughts, I think you will be stymied in finding fine dining locally.

[lizziee]

hollywood,

I am not being very clear. Fine dining for me is good service and good wine where the emphasis is on the food, wine and service.

[hollywood]

lizziee,
Given that clarification, I'd go with La Cachette, Spago and Yujean Kang if you get him to do a food and wine pairing for you. Another possibility would be to strike up an acquaintance with Robert Simon at Bistro 45 in Pasadena, tell him what you are looking for and see if he can deliver.

[Fastidious Kitty]

Hi everyone, I just registered today. I'll start by saying, I love Bistro Jeanty and recently went to Jeanty at Jacks, which is also wonderful. I don't think the food in LA is up to the same level as San Francisco, but there are some great places in town. I live in Los Angeles, and Angelini Osteria is currently my favorite restaurant. The food is fresh, simple, and delicious, and the staff is very friendly and professional. I'm going to Max's tonight....so I'll let you know.

[mixmaster b]

Hello all-

I am another LA resident new to egullet. I am sad to see that this fascinating discussion about the local restaurant scene has dropped off! Maybe now that the new Top 10 has been published in LA mag, there will be more discourse.

I was raised in NoCal (Berkeley & SF) and lived in NY for 8 years before moving to LA about 4 years ago. I must say I can see merit in the views of both lizziee & hollywood. I think LA has some great places to eat ethnic food of all kinds, and many mid-range places that are more than passable. We can be very proud of our Japanese cuisine, for sure. But I have to agree with lizziee when it comes to the really great restaurants.

My significant other & I only go to high end places on special occasions, and have not had the diverse, global experiences you all have been discussing. But when I lived in NY, and it was time for a big, fancy dinner out, there were always a plethora of options that did not disappoint. Perhaps it is the choices I've made since I've been here, but I have been let down by all of the "best" places here. (Most recent was an unimpressive meal at Valentino made worse by a waiter who was obviously ready for us to leave so he could end his shift. Other let-downs have been the now defunct Citrus, inconsistent and often boring Jozu, inconsistent Matsuhisa, Spago BH & Chinois--maybe I expected too much.)

Thinking that perhaps the culinary genius in LA could be found in hipper, trendier places, we tried Jar, Linq, Little Door, Reign, Mr Chow, Eurochow, Les Deux Cafes, and Falcon, and found them all very sceney and totally lacking in any inspiration in the food department (some were just plain awful). Moomba, on the other hand, has actually turned out very well-prepared, interesting, and delicious meals on several occasions.

I have had a few outstanding meals at Trouquet in the super-plastic South Coast Plaza--a tasting menu was particularly good. We went to Cienega once before it closed, and were quite happy with that experience. Zax has also provided several very good (though more casual) experiences. All of these places were kind of uncool, not particularly well decorated, and lacking in celebrities, but the food, wine, and service were top-notch. (We need more like this!)

I suspect that when Angelenos go for a big night out, they want to see stars in a fancy room, and maybe eat something with the sauce on the side. Maybe that is why this town has driven away some talent. And maybe a good reason to focus on the wide variety of off-the beaten-path places that hollywood recommends.

In any event, I would be very curious to hear what you all thought of LA Mag's most recent darlings.

Thanks!

[Beachfan]

Welcome to the california board mixmaster b!

I tend to agree with your assessment. Sorry that you've had inconsistency at Spago BH and Chinois; those are the two that I rely on for excellence in LA.

Keep on postin'!