222 replies to this topic

[MHarney]

...I'd rather spend my free time watching people who seem to be able to restrain themselves.

To repeat something Bourdain pointed out some time ago, he shows remarkable restraint many times in "Kitchen Nightmares." Superhuman restraint once or twice.

I am one of those people that is just rubbed the wrong way by a society that seems to be in love with other people's "celebrity" rather than with other ideas and issues and things that might bring a sense of more fulfillment into their own lives in a real way.

Agreed. In this case, I like his mechanics and ignore the PR.

Plus the angle of the story seemed wrong to me. As Shelora noted, it is not just women who are not in the kitchen.

Exactly. In my circle, there's just one person besides myself who spends much time in the kitchen. Most people seem to subscribe to the idea of food as fuel and fuel alone. Pretty sad.

Edited by MHarney, 25 October 2005 - 05:45 AM.

[Mikeb19]

I totally agree with Gordon Ramsay (in fact, I've been saying this for awhile).

I'm 20 years old. I'm no doubt one of the younger on this board. I do not know a SINGLE woman my age (or within 5 years) who can cook a simple meal from scratch. Most can't even prepare Kraft dinner without some sort of catastrophe. I've never dated a woman who could cook, nor have any of my friends. I do however know quite a few men my age who can cook (mostly due to spending time in the food industry during teenage years). I will not say anything like women aren't capable of cooking (since my grandma was an amazing cook, my mom pretty decent), but this generation of women CANNOT COOK. I would love to date a girl who could prepare an edible meal from scratch, but it seems I'm out of luck.

BTW, if anyone wants to knock my own cooking skills, I have been working in high end cuisine for a while (and not as a commis either). Alot of 'foodies' seem to like to dismiss Gordon Ramsay because of his style (he says things the way he sees them, doesn't try to be nice to avoid wrecking fragile egos), but his credentials, restaurants speak for themselves. BTW, if anyone thinks GR is mean, try working with high caliber french or italian chefs...

[Carrot Top]

"Home cooking" is not something that is valued in our society today in the US as a general rule.

Women may stand out as being different from their mothers or grandmothers in this respect today because they have *not* been encouraged to learn the ways of the home kitchen. (We'll set aside men who are another topic - just to avoid confusion here.)

Women today have the defined task in our society (as a general rule) that is the same as men: to develop their own capabilities into something that could be called a "career" or at the least, a "job" that will bring in income.

Oh, plus they still are the ones that bear children. Nobody has quite figured out how to completely equalize this thing between the sexes yet.

Our mothers and grandmothers performed a needed task when they cooked.
The food *needed* to be prepared for the family. There were not the options for finding ready-made meals everywhere else in sight, as there is now.

And they were (hopefully) appreciated when they did this neccesary task.

Walk into a room full of people chatting some day.

Watch the woman who is telling someone about her new job and her marvellous career prospects. Watch the response of people to her - both men and women.

Then watch the woman who is telling someone about what she cooked for her family's dinner the night before. Watch the response of people to her - again, both men and women.

................................................................

It is natural for people to aim towards doing things that will bring them appreciation and rewards.

Young women today are not thinking of being homemakers "first". They are thinking of finding some sort of way to support themselves financially "first".

Then all they have to worry about, later, is how to make a great meal in the time left after work after doing the housecleaning and after taking care of the kids.

That's all they have to figure out. Minor stuff.

[Carrot Top]

And I've figured out what *really* bothers me about Gordon Ramsay and this article.

Don''t you think that any celebrity chef who sets himself up to be such a thing has a responsibility to be well. . .desireable? Sexy?

..........................................................................

All I know is that if I were sitting across a table from a man having a wonderful dinner and all of a sudden he shoved his face towards me and stuck out his tongue
with his eyes in huge round mad circles and with a diamond "F" from some dinky charm bracelet sitting sparkling in the gobs of spittle, there would definitely be no nooky that night from me. I'd pick up my damn miniskirt and take it elsewhere.

Of course who knows. That ploy may have had millions of women swooning. I could be wrong.

[Adam Balic]

It is natural for people to aim towards doing things that will bring them appreciation and rewards.

Young women today are not thinking of being homemakers "first". They are thinking of finding some sort of way to support themselves financially "first".

Then all they have to worry about, later, is how to make a great meal in the time left after work after doing the housecleaning and after taking care of the kids.

That's all they have to figure out. Minor stuff.

Dude[ette] I work and cook, my missus doesn't cook much (although can and very well, it is just that I like doing it). Having a career certainly makes it more difficult (for either sex), but doesn't make it impossible.

Possibly modern lifestyles break means that only those that like to cook will. Nothing wrong with that (unless you get to the stage we the UK is were utter shite is being fed to kids at home and school). One thing I have noticed is that many friends are intimidated by cooking and feel that it it doesn't look like a food porn shot then they somehow did something wrong.

[Carrot Top]

Yeah. The problem is that kids are getting fed utter *shite*.

I don't know the answer, that's for sure.

But I do know that pointing fingers at *one* group as was done in that article (however it happened, through GR's antics or through the writer's words or through the editor' angle) is divisive and destructive rather than helpful.

Sigh.

[srhcb]

I cook.

Lots of people I know do too.

I don't let any tv personalities bother me.

What a Life!

SB

[Adam Balic]

Yeah. The problem is that kids are getting fed utter *shite*.

I don't know the answer, that's for sure.

But I do know that pointing fingers at *one* group as was done in that article (however it happened, through GR's antics or through the writer's words or through the editor' angle) is divisive and destructive rather than helpful.

Sigh.

The article is a bit lame, it presentd GR's typical personal observation taken to an extreme, then countered it with 1) He is well known for making similar statements before, 2) two comments from female cooks. No attempt to find out if there is any truth to the claim or if it highlights a issue in the UK (given the recent School Dinners issue, you would think this would be picked up).

But the articles job was well done as it is sold papers, which is the bottom line.

As it happens I know more British men that cook then women, but have always assumed that this is because women only want me, while it is the me that want to be me.

[Megan Blocker]

I totally agree with Gordon Ramsay (in fact, I've been saying this for awhile).

I'm 20 years old.  I'm no doubt one of the younger on this board.  I do not know a SINGLE woman my age (or within 5 years) who can cook a simple meal from scratch.  Most can't even prepare Kraft dinner without some sort of catastrophe.  I've never dated a woman who could cook, nor have any of my friends.  I do however know quite a few men my age who can cook (mostly due to spending time in the food industry during teenage years).  I will not say anything like women aren't capable of cooking (since my grandma was an amazing cook, my mom pretty decent), but this generation of women CANNOT COOK.  I would love to date a girl who could prepare an edible meal from scratch, but it seems I'm out of luck. 

BTW, if anyone wants to knock my own cooking skills, I have been working in high end cuisine for a while (and not as a commis either).  Alot of 'foodies' seem to like to dismiss Gordon Ramsay because of his style (he says things the way he sees them, doesn't try to be nice to avoid wrecking fragile egos), but his credentials, restaurants speak for themselves.  BTW, if anyone thinks GR is mean, try working with high caliber french or italian chefs...

I'm 25, a very good and enthusiastic cook, and have equal numbers of male and female friends in my age group who are of similar inclination. I have plenty of friends (male and female, again) who are not great cooks, but who appreciate good food. And then I have a few friends - MALE and FEMALE - who worship at the altar of the packaged and preserved. Gordon Ramsay is wrong. Wrong, wrong, wrong. Or, at least, wrong to target women.

But, I guess it worked, since we're talking about it.

Edited by Megan Blocker, 25 October 2005 - 07:00 AM.

[kitchenbabe]

You're right...those people do exist here...that's why we're here.
However, I see his point. As a woman and a professional cook, on the outset I should be offended....but I'm not.

Here in the states the numbers of female culinary professionals is growing...as is the culture of cuisine among home cooks. But it is sad that so many people, men and women, are out for that quick fix...a simple meal out of the microwave, but it can't have calories, or fat, (or, god forbid, carbs ) or even flavor. It's a bit disheartening.

If he's only reporting on what he's seeing, then no one can fault him. We're a society of people in a hurry and have begun placing these demands on women. We have to wear so many hats, that the toque gets left hanging on the wall.

So the only thing I can say to the women that are squawking about what he's seeing and saying about it, put the toque back on and prove him wrong!!!

[Susan G]

I'm curious why Gordon believes women *ought* to be able to cook well.......and that the same standard doesn't apply to young men??

The harder we work to earn a wage outside the home, the less time there is to cook. It's simple economics.

When I was in high school, I refused to learn typing because of the "traditional working female" connotations - and the lower social status it implied.

I think cooking might be the new typing............

[Andy Lynes]

Andy are you saying that the British are a nation of cooks? (Cue:Theme music; Jamies's School Dinners).

No, but I am pig sick of lazy generalisations about the food in this country.

[ludja]

....

Possibly modern lifestyles break means that only those that like to cook will. Nothing wrong with that (unless you get to the stage we the UK is were utter shite is being fed to kids at home and school). One thing I have noticed is that many friends are intimidated by cooking and feel that it it doesn't look like a food porn shot then they somehow did something wrong.

... Gordon Ramsay is wrong.  Wrong, wrong, wrong.  Or, at least, wrong to target women.

But, I guess it worked, since we're talking about it.

I agree that with many cases in which both parents work or have careers it will come down, hopefully, to the person who enjoys oooking more to do the bulk of the cooking or whatever arrangement is worked out. But there is no getting around the fact that eating very poorly will negatively impact children and also. still importantly, the health of adults, to eat that way.

The special focus on women may not be completely ill-advised though, in the sense that women are still disproportionately the majority of the gender who are feeding kids and teaching them lifelong eating habits---including what they will then pass on to their kids...

[Behemoth]

Andy are you saying that the British are a nation of cooks? (Cue:Theme music; Jamies's School Dinners).

No, but I am pig sick of lazy generalisations about the food in this country.

It wasn't a generalization about British food, it was a generalization about people who think each subsequent generation gets closer to hell in their handbasket than the previous one.

[Tess]

This is what really disappoints me:

Nigella Lawson, the television chef and chat show host, has herself previously attacked British women for ''vaunting their undomesticity.''

I never thought Nigella was mean.

[Adam Balic]

Andy are you saying that the British are a nation of cooks? (Cue:Theme music; Jamies's School Dinners).

No, but I am pig sick of lazy generalisations about the food in this country.

I dunno, DEFRA statistics aren't lazy generalisations and what they say is that in the last decade there has been an increase of "Ready meals & convenience meat products" eaten at home (from 133 gm per person per week to 198). Red meat, poultry and fish consumption remains steady, veg and fruit decline.

60 or so grams per week may not sound like a lot, but as a trend it is very interesting. Given all the food programs and food press over the last decade I am surprised that less British people are cooking at home then a decade ago.

Mind you, I have been here five years and I would say that those of us that are cooking are cooking better (better range and quality of products) now.

DEFRA

From the DEFRA site:

"Household consumption of beef and veal fell by 8.5 per cent in 2001/02. Consumption of lamb, mutton and pork remained at a similar level to 2000/01. There was reduced household consumption of uncooked poultry (-11 per cent) and bacon and ham (-9.8 per cent). Consumption of meat-based ready meals, including takeaways consumed in the household, increased by 15 per cent in comparison to 2000/01, which represents a 70 per cent increase compared to 1996/97. Household consumption of fish and fish products fell by 4.1 per cent in 2001/02. Overall consumption of fresh, frozen and dried fish remains similar to the previous year. Consumption of fresh, chilled or frozen white fish has declined by 21.7 per cent since 1996/97. Egg consumption rose by 1.9 per cent in 2001/02. "

Edited by Adam Balic, 25 October 2005 - 08:14 AM.

[BryanZ]

I totally agree with Gordon Ramsay (in fact, I've been saying this for awhile).

I'm 20 years old.  I'm no doubt one of the younger on this board.  I do not know a SINGLE woman my age (or within 5 years) who can cook a simple meal from scratch.  Most can't even prepare Kraft dinner without some sort of catastrophe.  I've never dated a woman who could cook, nor have any of my friends.  I do however know quite a few men my age who can cook (mostly due to spending time in the food industry during teenage years).  I will not say anything like women aren't capable of cooking (since my grandma was an amazing cook, my mom pretty decent), but this generation of women CANNOT COOK.  I would love to date a girl who could prepare an edible meal from scratch, but it seems I'm out of luck. 

BTW, if anyone wants to knock my own cooking skills, I have been working in high end cuisine for a while (and not as a commis either).  Alot of 'foodies' seem to like to dismiss Gordon Ramsay because of his style (he says things the way he sees them, doesn't try to be nice to avoid wrecking fragile egos), but his credentials, restaurants speak for themselves.  BTW, if anyone thinks GR is mean, try working with high caliber french or italian chefs...

This was a well-stated post. Although I do not not explicitly work in food-service I must admit that the entire generation, with very few exceptions, of kids my age has absolutely no conception of good food or basic cooking. I am not saying that tradtional gender roles are or ever were a good thing, but it cannot be denied that the average 20 year-old girl working or going to school is near braindead when it comes to cooking. Ramsay is not denigrating the females who strive to reach the top of their profession, he is simply remarking on the complete lack of initiative taken by younger women to get into the kitchen and learn how to cook decent meals for themselves.

Ramsay's original statement was not sexist in and of itself; it was only portrayed that way in the headline. He simply notes that many young women today place greater emphasis on entertaining (i.e. mixing cocktails) and similar pursuits than learning how to cook for themselves.

[Carrot Top]

Gordon Ramsay's statements are designed to get attention.

For himself, not for any goal of solving any greater "social problem."

[Carrot Top]

Let's take another look:

Clickie

[shelora]

Ramsay's original statement was not sexist in and of itself; it was only portrayed that way in the headline.  He simply notes that many young women today place greater emphasis on entertaining (i.e. mixing cocktails) and similar pursuits than learning how to cook for themselves.

Maybe Britian will see a whole generation of professional female bartenders!

[bushey]

I would love to date a girl who could prepare an edible meal from scratch, but it seems I'm out of luck. 

You should meet my daughter .

[inny]

I guess I should be offended, but I'm not. Not one bit. I am a bit older than his target demographic in the article, but I've been making the same argument about my generation since the 80s. (Before the days of Food Network).

I'd played with cooking as a kid, but it was really college where necessity won out over hobby. I either had to eat pizza for the rest of my life or teach myself how to cook. Out of my circle of friends, I was the only one who could cook. Anything. They lived on pre-packaged foods, take-out, dorm food... some of my friends probably didn't have a veg their entire time in college.

Over time, I did meet other cooking enthusiasts, but we were a rare breed (always popular at the office/lab potlucks). I'd argue that FN had a lot to do with popularizing home cooking in the 90s. At the very least, it brought some of us out of the closet.

Of course, it appears that we're backsliding now. A little grocery store reconnaissance demonstrates this easily. Most grocery carts I see are full of pre-packaged "heat-n-eat" crap, canned veggies, and (horror!) pre-cooked processed meats. And most of those carts are pushed around by women 25-45 who are at least 40lbs. overweight. Many have small kids in tow.

So, yep. I have to agree with GR based on my own unscientific observations over the last 20 years. Sad, isn't it.

[Andy Lynes]

It wasn't a generalization about British food, it was a generalization about people who think each subsequent generation gets closer to hell in their handbasket than the previous one.

It was a cheap joke at the expense of the Brits, which is fine as my response was a cheap joke at the expense of the Yanks.

[PS]

I'm curious why Gordon believes women *ought* to be able to cook well.......and that the same standard doesn't apply to young men??

Extending the quote from GR I made in my earlier post, you can see that he is saying that the same standard does appear to apply to young men:

"Seriously, there are huge numbers of young women out there who know how to mix cocktails but can't cook to save their lives, whereas men are finding their way into the kitchen in ever growing numbers."

I'd agree with that as well - all the friends of my generation who are most into cooking are men.

[chefzadi]

Wait, does this mean he thinks the previous generation of British women could cook?

...and we're all deeply impressed by mom's apple pie over here of course. Run me through the entire canon of American home cooking not derived from your British ancestors would you, I've got 30 seconds to spare.

Speaking of generalizations....

My KOREAN born wife's family's AMERICAN home cooking has nothing to do with British cooking. My AMERICAN born children eat Korean, Algerian and French.

They'd be surprised to hear about their British ancestors.

[Adam Balic]

It wasn't a generalization about British food, it was a generalization about people who think each subsequent generation gets closer to hell in their handbasket than the previous one.

It was a cheap joke at the expense of the Brits, which is fine as my response was a cheap joke at the expense of the Yanks.

I see. Thankfully everybody loves Australians (even ones that are about to become British
. I will let you know if the quality of my cooking declines at this point).

[Priscilla]

My maternal grandmother was a English-American emigrant, and was a fabulous wonderful incredible cook -- my first and most important cooking role model.

[Carrot Top]

I'm curious why Gordon believes women *ought* to be able to cook well.......and that the same standard doesn't apply to young men??

Extending the quote from GR I made in my earlier post, you can see that he is saying that the same standard does appear to apply to young men:

"Seriously, there are huge numbers of young women out there who know how to mix cocktails but can't cook to save their lives, whereas men are finding their way into the kitchen in ever growing numbers."

I'd agree with that as well - all the friends of my generation who are most into cooking are men.

I know equal amounts of people (male/female) both older and younger that are "into cooking".

Let's face it - it is not the most common thing to find in a person today.

One small difference here that has some sort of internal effect that I'd like to mention, though:

Men who enter the home kitchen are lauded and hung with accolades, slapped on the back and told what a fine fellow they are. (And indeed, they certainly are.)

Women who enter the home kitchen are *generally* not. Generally what they hear is a holler out from the other room of "Bring me a beer, will ya?"

Edited by Carrot Top, 25 October 2005 - 09:15 AM.

[Carrot Top]

Again, I would like to mention the value that "professionalism" (or even aspects of all that glitters) holds here in our society (USA).

I tell people that I was an Executive Chef and I am wreathed with smiles and interest, with curious questions and excitement from people.

I tell people that I am a mother - who cooks for her children at home - and the sorts of things that I like to make. . .and I am suddenly surrounded by a fog of glazed disinterest, with glances around to see who else might be pounced on by the audience for a "better story".

When (or where) home cooking is respected by the society, you will have people cooking at home.

Edited by Carrot Top, 25 October 2005 - 09:28 AM.

[PS]

Women who enter the home kitchen are *generally* not. Generally what they hear is a holler out from the other room of "Bring me a beer, will ya?"

They don't even have to be cooking to get that shout, just in the vicinity of the fridge