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Parmesan Cheese standards lowered in the U.S.


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#1 west2100

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Posted 03 October 2005 - 08:59 AM

http://www.foodnavig...cal-indications

It seems the FDA has lowered curing times from 10 months to 6 months. A similar decision was made in 1973, lowering it from 14 to 10 months. Apparently thers is new techonology that allows for faster curing times.

New technology, eh?

#2 Gifted Gourmet

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Posted 03 October 2005 - 09:08 AM

According to its petition, Kraft Foods claims that Parmesan cheese cured for aix months is physically and organoleptically equivalent to current Parmesan cheese cured for 10 months.
consumer taste panels confirmed that the grated six-month cured product is considered to be equivalent in taste, texture and cooking properties.
Kraft Foods also states that the shortened curing time has no effect on the nutrition profile of the product.
Kraft Foods stated its six-month product is "just as wholesome and nondeleterious as other such cheeses available to consumers''.
Kraft Foods states that the proposed amendment would reduce the cost of inventory and reduce losses from damage during the additional four-month holding
period.

I don't know about you folks but I fail to see this as a real problem unless one lives in a parmesan-producing region in Italy .. cheaper, more easily available, more production ... looks good for the consumer ... equivalent in taste by a tasting panel sounds promising to me ...

remember that competition benefits the consumer ... :wink:

Want to refute my argument? :rolleyes:
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#3 kiliki

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Posted 03 October 2005 - 09:39 AM

I'd have to think that the people who buy Kraft "parmesan" cheese and the real thing are two entirely different groups, so it's hard to believe this could hurt Italian producers.

#4 PassionateChefsDie

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Posted 03 October 2005 - 09:59 AM

According to its petition, Kraft Foods claims that Parmesan cheese cured for aix months is physically and organoleptically equivalent to current Parmesan cheese cured for 10 months.
consumer taste panels confirmed that the grated six-month cured product is considered to be equivalent in taste, texture and cooking properties.
Kraft Foods also states that the shortened curing time has no effect on the nutrition profile of the product.
Kraft Foods stated its six-month product is "just as wholesome and nondeleterious as other such cheeses available to consumers''.
Kraft Foods states that the proposed amendment would reduce the cost of inventory and reduce losses from damage during the additional four-month holding
period.

I don't know about you folks but I fail to see this as a real problem unless one lives in a parmesan-producing region in Italy .. cheaper, more easily available, more production ... looks good for the consumer ... equivalent in taste by a tasting panel sounds promising to me ...

remember that competition benefits the consumer ... :wink:

Want to refute my argument? :rolleyes:

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How can you call that competition sounds like good marketing to me for an inferior product. A farmer against a large commercial body like Kraft I dont need to point out who's going to win this one.
Cant see this ever happening in europe thank goodness! If I wanted an inferior product I'd use Grana Padano, according to european spec only 800 farms can produce the milk (To very high specs no bulk buying of milk here!) for Parmesan and only these cheeses can be called Parmesan. Looks like you're being done, Ok so the majority wont notice the difference and there aggresive marketing techniques may well drive imports for true Parmesan down until it becomes an artisan cheese which it is!
But the true gourmet who can tell the difference between Grana Padano and Parmesan certainly isn't going to be fooled by an imitation, its another big cooperation picking on small artisan products eventually driving them out of the market place! Maybe in years to come they'll get taken to court but by that time US parmesan export would of probably fallen into major decline, and as parmesan production isn't produced in the US I cant see it ever happening IMHO!
I'm interested in the reduction of cost in inventory whats that one line of writing xxxx cheese turned in barrel on xxxx date christ what a cost saving exercise! :laugh:
Secondly as far as know the minimum for Parmesan in Europe is 12-48 months so you've already taken 2 months of european specs is it Parmesan or a poor imitation that you get already?
As for more production thats not possible unless its fake cheese as mentioned European states very clearly who can produce milk for Parmesan to stop this kind of practise in Europe, but then your in the US which doesn't need to adhere to these rules.
Just my opinion but dont get you food import laws at all, they seem to want to keep production in the US and aggresively keep out other countrys produce.
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#5 alexhills

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Posted 03 October 2005 - 10:08 AM

One should also note the taste tests were carried out on GRATED parmesan.... The stuff that has been grated x-weeks ago and has no taste anyway. Bleh... I'm forgiving about some things, but not kraft pre-grated parmesan. Woodshavings would be no worse.

#6 melkor

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Posted 03 October 2005 - 10:21 AM

I can't imagine anyone eating the Kraft 'Parmesan' cheese from the green can is going to notice the difference between 10 month and 6 month old cheese. One tastes like cardboard, the other tastes like cardboard.

#7 Gifted Gourmet

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Posted 03 October 2005 - 10:36 AM

My bet here is that what Kraft will be offering won't be anything equivalent to what is in the green can at the moment. I don't think that they are comparing grated, dried up parmesan to the original Italian product from P-R region ...but I may6 be wrong ... why anyone would compare the stuff in the green can to anything boggles my mind ...

My understanding was that this will be a new product, aged in a way that makes it similar to the "real deal" ... but I have no way of knowing what is being compared without reading the documents themselves on the new product aged for a few months. (Valid) comparisons must be done on equivalent items ...

but then your in the US which doesn't need to adhere to these rules.
Just my opinion but dont get you food import laws at all, they seem to want to keep production in the US and aggresively keep out other countrys produce.

PassionateChefsDie: Living in the US doesn't make anyone a gourmet or not a gourmet .. that is an individual preference, not a geographical one and we are cognizant of food import laws here as well.
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#8 melkor

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Posted 03 October 2005 - 10:43 AM

Kraft is looking to lower the requirements for what the put in the green can and the plastic cheese-type product they sell shrink-wrapped in the dairy case at the grocery store. They already offer a wildly inferior product, how much harm could 2 months less age do to it?

#9 Mallet

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Posted 03 October 2005 - 10:49 AM

Kraft is looking to lower the requirements for what the put in the green can and the plastic cheese-type product they sell shrink-wrapped in the dairy case at the grocery store.  They already offer a wildly inferior product, how much harm could 2 months less age do to it?

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It could allow them to churn outmore of the stuff by having a shorter production cycle.... :biggrin:
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#10 PassionateChefsDie

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Posted 03 October 2005 - 11:02 AM

but then your in the US which doesn't need to adhere to these rules.
Just my opinion but dont get you food import laws at all, they seem to want to keep production in the US and aggresively keep out other countrys produce.

PassionateChefsDie: Living in the US doesn't make anyone a gourmet or not a gourmet .. that is an individual preference, not a geographical one and we are cognizant of food import laws here as well.

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No but European Law isn't enforceble in the US that was my point! I dont believe that a Gourmet would buy this product that was my point. That and as you have US law if it goes against European Law there is nobody and no one that can do anything Law doesn't work like that. Its only country specific unless you've signed up to EU you have no reason to follow our specs and unless I've missed something I dont believe your a member of the EU yet. In Europe Kraft would of been taken to court just for suggesting it was Parmesan!
I could go to a country thats not covered by EU law make the worst cheese in the world and call it Parmesan if there laws dont stop me that was my point.
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#11 ludja

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Posted 03 October 2005 - 11:16 AM

My bet here is that what Kraft will be offering won't be anything equivalent to what is in the green can at the moment. I don't think that they are comparing grated, dried up parmesan to the original Italian product from P-R region ...but I may6 be wrong ... why anyone would compare the stuff in the green can to anything boggles my mind ...

My understanding was that this will be a new product, aged in a way that makes it similar to the "real deal" ... but I have no way of knowing what is being compared without reading the documents themselves on the new product aged for a few months. (Valid) comparisons must be done on equivalent items ...


It seems relatively clear that they are comparing the new "6 month grated domestic cheese" to "10 month grated domestic cheese".

According to its petition, Kraft Foods claims that Parmesan cheese cured for aix months is physically and organoleptically equivalent to current Parmesan cheese cured for 10 months.

In addition, consumer taste panels confirmed that the grated six-month cured product is considered to be equivalent in taste, texture and cooking properties  to grated parmesan cheese currently available to consumers, the company claims.


What I do find interesting, as a scientist, is the way they report that they have achieved the reduced curing time by using a speedier version of the enzyme presumably implicated in the curing process.

If there are no other factors involved in achieving the flavor of a traditionally aged parmigiano reggiano (all other factors being kept constant, such as the quality of the milk, etc), perhaps this is a way that all producers could speed up their production with no ill effects to their existing product. Or, some adjustments to other processing conditions may be needed in tandem with the accelerated enzyme in order to still (truly) achieve the same endpoint. That is, Kraft will remain Kraft, but perhaps Parmagiano Reggiano would also remain the same with this accelerated process. I'm not advocating tampering with the traditional approaches, but it is interesting from a scientificc standpoint.
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#12 PassionateChefsDie

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Posted 03 October 2005 - 11:28 AM

My bet here is that what Kraft will be offering won't be anything equivalent to what is in the green can at the moment. I don't think that they are comparing grated, dried up parmesan to the original Italian product from P-R region ...but I may6 be wrong ... why anyone would compare the stuff in the green can to anything boggles my mind ...

My understanding was that this will be a new product, aged in a way that makes it similar to the "real deal" ... but I have no way of knowing what is being compared without reading the documents themselves on the new product aged for a few months. (Valid) comparisons must be done on equivalent items ...


It seems relatively clear that they are comparing the new "6 month grated domestic cheese" to "10 month grated domestic cheese".

According to its petition, Kraft Foods claims that Parmesan cheese cured for aix months is physically and organoleptically equivalent to current Parmesan cheese cured for 10 months.

In addition, consumer taste panels confirmed that the grated six-month cured product is considered to be equivalent in taste, texture and cooking properties  to grated parmesan cheese currently available to consumers, the company claims.


If there are no other factors involved in achieving the flavor of a traditionally aged parmigiano reggiano (all other factors being kept constant, such as the quality of the milk, etc), perhaps this is a way that all producers could speed up their production with no ill effects to their existing product. Or, some adjustments to other processing conditions may be needed in tandem with the accelerated enzyme in order to still (truly) achieve the same endpoint. That is, Kraft will remain Kraft, but perhaps Parmagiano Reggiano would also remain the same with this accelerated process. I'm not advocating tampering with the traditional approaches, but it is interesting from a scientificc standpoint.

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Totally agree but production in the EU will never increase you cant put land where there isn't! By EU law its extremely regionally specific I say lets increase production put the same rules and regs on Grana Pandano at least its the other side of the river. So even if you speed up the curing process, production by EU law is going to struggle to increase production I can't put cows on land thats not there, but this is where I got lost in the difference in Law!
So even though you'd see an initial speed up in production after the first year it would still be the same amount being produced. If I milk 100 cows just because my cheese is ready earlier doesn't mean my cows are going to produce more milk! So why fix something thats not broke?
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#13 Pontormo

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Posted 03 October 2005 - 12:13 PM

Is Nancy Radke a member here? She's the US rep for marketing Parmigiano Reggiano.
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#14 MHarney

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Posted 03 October 2005 - 04:01 PM

One tastes like cardboard, the other tastes like cardboard.

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We kind of age our parmesan in only the finest wheel-shaped corrugated boxes, carefully selected by our purchasing manager Eddie and lovingly hand-assembled by Carol over there. Now with extra science!
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#15 rooftop1000

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Posted 04 October 2005 - 07:16 AM

Are we all forgetting that Parmesan isnt Parmigiano in the first place. It is merely a cheese food in the style of Parma right. People that like Parmigiano Regiano or Grana Padana arent going to eat Kraft Parmesan in the first place weather in the shreads or the green can....at least not willingly. I am guessing that if you make smaller cheeses they will age faster or at least dry out for canning faster.
Personally I like Locatelli Pecorino Romano better than Parmigiano.
eh


T
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#16 PassionateChefsDie

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Posted 04 October 2005 - 02:46 PM

Are we all forgetting that Parmesan isnt Parmigiano in the first place. It is merely a cheese food in the style of Parma right. People that like Parmigiano Regiano or Grana Padana arent going to eat Kraft Parmesan in the first place weather in the shreads or the green can....at least not willingly. I am guessing that if you make smaller cheeses they will age faster or at least dry out for canning faster.
Personally I like Locatelli Pecorino Romano better than Parmigiano.
eh


T

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Is in my country can't call anything else parmesan and the rest of the EU
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#17 jayt90

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Posted 04 October 2005 - 05:11 PM

Whenever a cheese topic like this comes up, thereis a lot of interest.

Isn't it time for a Cheese section on the board?

#18 Lady T

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Posted 04 October 2005 - 05:25 PM

:hmmm:

I suspect that it's 'preaching to the choir' to warn anybody who cares about the provenance, quality, and nutritional capacities of what they eat -- and I would call that the minimum-standard description for folks who come here -- against a product that makes unsubstantiated (as yet, anyhow) claims like these.

I have no intention of touching this stuff until both the scientists AND the critics of taste have weighed in on it.

:huh:
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#19 MarketStEl

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Posted 05 October 2005 - 07:45 AM

No but European Law isn't enforceble in the US that was my point! I dont believe that a Gourmet would buy this product that was my point. That and as you have US law if it goes against European Law there is nobody and no one that can do anything Law doesn't work like that. Its only country specific unless you've signed up to EU you have no reason to follow our specs and unless I've missed something I dont believe your a member of the EU yet. In Europe Kraft would of been taken to court just for suggesting it was Parmesan!


It works both ways, by the way.

US trademark law is the reason the people in Ceške Budovice, Czech Republic, who brew genuine Budweiser beer can't call it by that name in the United States. I understand that Anheuser-Busch even tried to keep them from calling their product by its proper name in Europe!

I guess the French producers of Roquefort cheese had some good lawyers representing them in the United States, for we usually are not shy about adopting place-specific names elsewhere to describe domestic products that resemble them.

Another example: For many years in the late 19th century, the producers of Saratoga mineral water--now a well-known place-specific name in its own right--referred to their product as "Saratoga Vichy water."

The fact that the sparkling water is no longer referred to as "Vichy" suggests to me that part of the problem is that the US hasn't had a long enough history of place-specific food production to make names stick.

However, that has begun to change over the past few decades. Cheeseheads can tell the difference between New York State, Vermont, and Wisconsin cheddar, and each has its partisans. Big cheesemakers in each of the three states have produced prize-winning cheeses in national competitions, and Wisconsin is actually the home of the only cheese variety that originated in the US, Colby (after the county), a mild cheese that is like Cheddar, but softer. (Someone is no doubt going to come after me for not including Monterey Jack cheese in this category, but California was part of Mexico when this cheese was created.) Similarly, certain California counties (Napa, Sonoma) have strong enough associations with fine wine production that there is now talk of setting up a geographic name control system similar to what the EU uses.

Americans who know their cheese would not purchase Kraft (or 4C, or Frigo...) grated or solid Parmesan instead of Parmigiano-Reggiano just because the former is cheaper*; the longer aged genuine article tastes better, even if it's been sitting around a while in an airtight jar after grating. But like Gifted Gourmet, I'm ambivalent about this development; one of the reasons we can eat so well for so little in the US is because of these mass production techniques that produce acceptable quality products at low prices.

*Okay, okay; when I'm short on funds, I would. But I do so harboring no illusions that I'm buying real Parmesan.
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#20 rooftop1000

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Posted 05 October 2005 - 02:50 PM

Actually when I make my grandmothers parmesan dumplings for chicken soup I buy Colona Parm/Romano blend in a jar because thats what they are supposed to taste like.


T
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#21 ludja

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Posted 05 October 2005 - 03:12 PM

Whenever a cheese topic like this comes up, thereis a lot of interest.

Isn't it time for a Cheese section on the board?

View Post


Sounds like a good idea.
"Under the dusty almond trees, ... stalls were set up which sold banana liquor, rolls, blood puddings, chopped fried meat, meat pies, sausage, yucca breads, crullers, buns, corn breads, puff pastes, longanizas, tripes, coconut nougats, rum toddies, along with all sorts of trifles, gewgaws, trinkets, and knickknacks, and cockfights and lottery tickets."

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#22 PassionateChefsDie

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Posted 05 October 2005 - 07:58 PM

It works both ways, by the way.

Another example: For many years in the late 19th century, the producers of Saratoga mineral water--now a well-known place-specific name in its own right--referred to their product as "Saratoga Vichy water."

The fact that the sparkling water is no longer referred to as "Vichy" suggests to me that part of the problem is that the US hasn't had a long enough history of place-specific food production to make names stick.


Hate to dissapoint you but Vichy is West of Lyon in France(And the original fizzy water I believe) so it looks like you being selling under false place names for longer than I thought. As for your other points, you just mentioned other products that America tried or suceeded in selling in the US even though they weren't the original. I also believe on Budwieser that they had to concede on the grounds that it was the way the beer is made with out checking I believe it's a top fermented beer with specific ingredients German in originality.
What gets me is as a country your the first to enforce trademarks/copyrights.
Your justification that its better for the consumer doesn't really win the high ground on morality. Lets be honest if I started making cereal and calling it Kellogs you'd be the first country sueing me, its like the graduate picking on the infant.
There's no country in the world that could affect you commercial interests even if we let fake Kellogs from China into this country it wouldn't affect you. The only reason MS got taken to court was because of the action it took against Netscape how many European software houses did he crush in the process.
I understand business is business buts lets be honest here do we really think this isn't going to have an affect on Italian exports? IMHO I just think as a superpower you could go about a better PR campaign rather than aggresive underselling. I also understand all countries are guilty of this but I don't see any European country letting fake American products on the market.
Was interested about Roquefort do you know why they won? I'm speculating that the difference is Parmesan not Parmigiano Regiano and I take it that I couldn't make Parmigiano Regiano in your country?
Why should we adhere to you naming scheme you dont follow ours? Whats to stop us marketing English Wine and calling it Napa Chardonnay? Just higher morals you can be sure that Europe will enforce your naming scheme.

Edited: Vichy wasn't East it was West don't give me a compass!
Also does anyone know when and why the term Parmesan was coined?

Edited by PassionateChefsDie, 06 October 2005 - 04:02 AM.

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#23 MarketStEl

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Posted 06 October 2005 - 04:45 AM

It works both ways, by the way.

Another example: For many years in the late 19th century, the producers of Saratoga mineral water--now a well-known place-specific name in its own right--referred to their product as "Saratoga Vichy water."

The fact that the sparkling water is no longer referred to as "Vichy" suggests to me that part of the problem is that the US hasn't had a long enough history of place-specific food production to make names stick.


Hate to dissapoint you you but Vichy is east of Lyon in France(And the original fizzy water I believe) so it looks like you being selling under false place names for longer than I thought.


That was my point, and the reason why I brought up the Saratoga example. (To throw another interesting monkey wrench into this discussion, for a period of time in the 1980s and 1990s, the company that owned the Saratoga Springs in New York State was a subsidiary of Anheuser-Busch.) I know that Vichy is in France--about the only Americans who wouldn't are those who slept through the history of World War II. (Vichy was also the seat of the French puppet government under German occupation.) It was because Vichy was associated with sparkling water that the bottlers of Saratoga water appropriated the French place name.

Want me to further muddy the waters? The most popular brand of cream cheese in the US is named for the city where I live, but has no other association with it--it was never manufactured here, nor did anyone from here produce it elsewhere. The makers of Philadelphia Brand cream cheese gave it that name because--again, in the late 19th century--Philadelphia had a reputation as a center of fine cooking and dining in America, and they wanted to capitalize on that association. You can find all sorts of US-made products now that seek to capitalize on some association with well-known American locales, but if you read the fine print, have none beyond the labels (e.g., West Virginia brand bacon, made outside the state; a company in New York City for many years sold smoked sausages under the "Carolina" brand name--the product is now sold as "Caroline," with the "e" shaped so that it recalls an "A", presumably to avoid legal action over the sausages not actually coming from the Carolinas).

As for your other points, you just mentioned other products that America tried or suceeded in selling in the US even though they weren't the original. I also believe on Budwieser that they had to concede on the grounds that it was the way the beer is made with out checking I believe it's a top fermented beer with specific ingredients German in originality.
What gets me is as a country your the first to enforce trademarks/copyrights.
Your justification that its better for the consumer doesn't really win the high ground on morality. Lets be honest if I started making cereal and calling it Kellogs you'd be the first country sueing me, its like the graduate picking on the infant.
There's no country in the world that could affect you commercial interests even if we let fake Kellogs from China into this country it wouldn't affect you. The only reason MS got taken to court was because of the action it took against Netscape how many European software houses did he crush in the process.


Let's come back to this assertion in about 20 years, when the Chinese economy may well be bigger than the United States'. The Chinese are just beginning to realize the need to protect names and trademarks as a guarantee of quality as their own companies now compete on the world stage. I guess they're lucky that none of our manufacturers has yet adopted "Hunan" or "Szechuan" as a trademark for a line of Chinese foods.

I understand business is business buts lets be honest here do we really think this isn't going to have an affect on Italian exports? IMHO I just think as a superpower you could go about a better PR campaign rather than aggresive underselling. I also understand all countries are guilty of this but I don't see any European country letting fake American products on the market.


Of course not. European manufacturers and producers understand "intellectual property" and trademarks. But I'll bet that somewhere, some European manufacturer is making a line of, say, barbecue sauces called "Old Kentucky" or something like that.

Was interested about Roquefort do you know why they won? I'm speculating that the difference is Parmesan not Parmigiano Regiano and I take it that I couldn't make Parmigiano Regiano in your country?


I have no knowledge of how the Roquefort producers were able to protect their name from misuse in the United States, and it may well be that in this matter, it also hinges on the specific term "Parmigiano Reggiano"--which you indeed cannot produce in the U.S., no more than you could grow Vidalia onions in the UK. (Vidalia onions are one of those rare American foodstuffs that do have a legally protected, place-specific name--they must be grown in a specific region surrounding Vidalia, Ga. Edited to add: In response to the success of the Vidalia onion, other growers have developed super-sweet varieties, the best-known of these newcomers being the Texas 1015.)

Why should we adhere to you naming scheme you dont follow ours? Whats to stop us marketing English Wine and calling it Napa Chardonnay? Just higher morals you can be sure that Europe will enforce your naming scheme.

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Then we may want to learn the distinction between the terms "Parmesan cheese" and Parmigiano Reggiano, since there appears to be one. Edited to add: And if there is, then we may have actually gotten better at respecting protected place-specific designations for foodstuffs than our exchange suggests.

Edited by MarketStEl, 06 October 2005 - 04:59 AM.

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#24 PassionateChefsDie

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Posted 06 October 2005 - 10:45 AM

I think this has gone a little to far, I just like you believe in protecting intellectual property. I'm also am interested in finding out when the phrase was coined and the meaning of Parmesan? As this seems extremely relavent.

As I pointed out it will have an effect on Italian exports, how many of us distinguish between Parmigiano-Reggiano and Parmesan speaking for myself I certainly dont.

As for Vichy I hold my hands up I must of fell asleep during that lesson. I knew of it because of Vichy Carrots, I had to get the Atlas you nearly convinced me it was American. :laugh:

As for the Chinese market I believe you're right but before that happens they're going to have to honour the rest of the worlds copyright laws can't see that happening in the next 20 years. Though how can you be protecting intellectual rights when the majority of the originators are dead. This is a law thats abused both ways in most countrys simply for monetary reasons not intellectual rights. Many copies aren't trying to imitate just produce cheaper, to which you and I dont have a problem with, its the blurring of lines and trying to sell as the said article. In Sweden there copyright laws leave the defence to prove loss of business which makes far more sense than the ones we've got over here. A fine example was a little Jewellers I knew called Harrods, sign completly different, not a single piece of marketing material that even looked remotely like it, just someones surname and I'm sure you can guess the rest.

As we both agree that discerning taste buds will notice the difference.

I really dont care first I'm not an American consumer, secondly I believe that even if you sold it as Parmigiano-Reggiano I'd still taste the difference.
It was simply an outside perspective from an EU point of view, I gain nothing and lose nothing by the dialogue we've had.

I really do stand by Business is Business and I'm not really have a go. I know and understand that someone could pick on our laws for looking after our own commercial interests.
This simply started by my assertion that in the EU as far as I'm aware they're the same cheese, it affects the American consumer and Italian exporters more than it affects me.

I don't mean to offend here but your not really known for your culinary exports(Not saying you haven't got any), and certainly not place specific products, beyond Monterary Jack I myself would of struggled to name place specific food stuff. JD of course, I certainly could of mentioned far more wines, I believe that several of you top wines are giving the competition a run for its money.

I was more interested to see that you already have a less matured cheese I have also come across the fact that Grana Padana and Parmigiano-Reggiano(Is this matured for less time, for your country?) are known as Parmesan. So this already throws a spanner in the works my source implies both are. You and I would probably disagree on the latter as its a far different cheese, I never use to eat Grana Padana(Ok on my pasta) it just didn't have the same depth as the other, where you to sell it to me as parmesan I'd give it back. Seeming as it implies it's two cheeses guessing you'd have a problem trying to own it as term for a single cheese, I hope someone else can enlighten us!

Sounds like a headache for a legal team that couldn't ever be won as it doesnt distinguish between the two cheeses probably is a term for a hard cheese from the Parma region.

Please don't take any offence these weren't opinions but more an outside perspective. As mentioned I can't really comment about any countries legal system as someone said to me years ago 9/10ths of law are about ownership.
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#25 MarketStEl

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Posted 06 October 2005 - 06:30 PM

I think this has gone a little to far, I just like you believe in protecting intellectual property. I'm also am interested in finding out when the phrase was coined and the meaning of Parmesan? As this seems extremely relavent.

As I pointed out it will have an effect on Italian exports, how many of us distinguish between  Parmigiano-Reggiano and Parmesan speaking for myself I certainly dont.


It may well be that Parmesan, like Cheddar, Colby or Monterey Jack, has become a generic for a variety of cheese made by a certain method and possessing certain texture and flavor characteristics and has become completely divorced from the place that gave birth to the cheese.

I suspect that you are typical in not necessarily distinguishing Parmigiano Reggiano from "generic" Parmesan when shopping for cheese, and to the extent that people buy on price and not taste, your concern for Italian cheesemakers is warranted.

As for Vichy I hold my hands up I must of fell asleep during that lesson. I knew of it because of Vichy Carrots, I had to get the Atlas you nearly convinced me it was American. :laugh:


Well, since Versailles (pronounced ver-SALES) is a community of about 2,500 people in Morgan County, Missouri, about 125 miles SE of my hometown of Kansas City, who knows? Vichy might well be American after all. :laugh: :wink:

As for the Chinese market I believe you're right but before that happens they're going to have to honour the rest of the worlds copyright laws can't see that happening in the next 20 years. Though how can you be protecting intellectual rights when the majority of the originators are dead. This is a law thats abused both ways in most countrys simply for monetary reasons not intellectual rights.


Here in the States, with this statement, you'd be bringing up a bunch of Mickey Mouse legislation :wink: that has very little to do with the topic of these forums.

I feel for the owner of that jewelry shop called Harrods.

I was more interested to see that you already have a less matured cheese I have also come across the fact that Grana Padana and Parmigiano-Reggiano(Is this matured for less time, for your country?) are known as Parmesan. So this already throws a spanner in the works my source implies both are. You and I would probably disagree on the latter as its a far different cheese, I never use to eat Grana Padana(Ok on my pasta) it just didn't have the same depth as the other, where you to sell it to me as parmesan I'd give it back. Seeming as it implies it's two cheeses guessing you'd have a problem trying to own it as term for a single cheese, I hope someone else can enlighten us!


I've never eaten Grana Padana--I'm sure that there must be a local cheese shop that sells it, probably DiBruno's--but I have tasted a Dutch hybrid called Parrano that is a cross between Parmesan and Gouda, or something like that. (Gouda--there's another place-specific cheese whose name has become a generic!)

Please don't take any offence these weren't opinions but more an outside perspective. As mentioned I can't really comment about any countries legal system as someone said to me years ago 9/10ths of law are about ownership.

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"He who has the gold makes the rules."

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#26 rooftop1000

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Posted 06 October 2005 - 08:24 PM

Just to add to any confusion, lets not forget about dishes like chicken or eggplant parmesan/parmigian which are covered in Mozzerella. Often just called Chicken Parm.
In a recent short stint working at an Italain deli...we carried Parmigiano Regiano in chunks, Grana Padana in chunks, Locatelli Romano in chunks, and this wholesale bagged grated cheese that went into 1# containers marked Parmigiano Regiano. I had to quit before they hung the 55# Provolone in the front window......Yech


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#27 Daniel Rogov

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Posted 07 October 2005 - 09:47 AM

As often, I have both good news and bad news.

The good news is that much of the cheese rightlyknown as Parmigiano Reggiano is superb, in fact, one of the best cheeses in the world.

The bad news is that what is produced outside of Italy and called "Parmesan" often has the texture of rubber, the flavor of processed cardboard and the charm of a dead mouse.

Relating to the wisdom of nearly every major and quite a few minor religions on our little planet: "If it is like an egg, it is not as good as an egg".

So be it.