542 replies to this topic

[MarketStEl]

I do have one thing to say...I thought they at least used a real dairy mix for their shakes... 

Let me guess: Something derived from seaweed?

Nonfat dry milk powder?

Sodium caseinate?

Chocolate flavored Coffee-Mate®?

Congrats on scoring a copy of "How Not to Make A Hamburger Worth Waiting For."

I'll bet--completely without sarcasm--that it's fascinating reading, and that Mark Twain quip about laws and sausages probably applies to reading this book as well.

[Magus]

I do have one thing to say...I thought they at least used a real dairy mix for their shakes...  

Let me guess: Something derived from seaweed?

Nonfat dry milk powder?

Sodium caseinate?

Chocolate flavored Coffee-Mate®?

Congrats on scoring a copy of "How Not to Make A Hamburger Worth Waiting For."

I'll bet--completely without sarcasm--that it's fascinating reading, and that Mark Twain quip about laws and sausages probably applies to reading this book as well.

It is fascinating..To know what the used to do...when I worked there many moons ago vs. what they do today. They have totally dumbed down their whole system. Just by reading the material it brings to mind one of my favoite sayings ....If you want square work, you cant cut corners!!

[crinoidgirl]

The establishment will be located in Michigan

Yay!!!!

[Magus]

I have been doing some more burger recon. It seems that there is a lot to take into consideration First, meat to fat ratio. It seems that if you go with a lean cut of beef, then it lacks that juiciness. Where as if you go with a modest fat content, you get a great tasting burger, but it shrinks all to heck, so you are almost forced to go with a bigger burger.

With this said, what would be a good size. 1/4lb or 1/3rd lb.
(Based on precooked patty weight.)….I always wanted to say that.

This leads into my next question. Burger presentation. I already know that it is unacceptable to have the bun bigger in circumference than the burger itself. What seems more pleasing, the burger being the same size as the bun or overhanging the bun.

Condiments
I personally like romaine lettuce over iceberg
.
Beefsteak or Heirloom tomatoes.
Kosher dill pickles.
Red or White onions.
Home made mayo or Helmans.

What condiments do you like?

Next would be burger thickness. I don’t want to be anywhere near the (oversized, super size, biggie) craze. But what would be a good thickness of a burger. Keep in mind that it will be cooked on a griddle rather than a char broiler. Griddles have more cooking surface area than a char broiler. I have also been thinking about grinding my own burgers. I was thinking, If I could make the burgers into meatball shapes, I could fit more fresh burgers in the fridge, not have to worry about them being smushed…if that’s a word, and then give them an initial smash when they are put on the grill, then they will have those beautiful irregular edges.

What are your thoughts?….

Edited by Magus, 26 September 2005 - 02:35 PM.

[snowangel]

Beefsteak or heirloom tomatoes will be a challenge most of the year in Michigan...

[MarketStEl]

I have been doing some more burger recon. It seems that there is a lot to take into consideration First, meat to fat ratio. It seems that if you go with a lean cut of beef, then it lacks that juiciness. Where as if you go with a modest fat content, you get a great tasting burger, but it shrinks all to heck, so you are almost forced to go with a bigger burger.

With this said, what would be a good size. 1/4lb or 1/3rd lb.
(Based on precooked patty weight.)….I always wanted to say that. 

My own experience is that 80/20 ground beef produces an adequately juicy burger with a little less shrinkage. You might even be able to use 85/15 if shrinkage is a major worry for you. (Does McDonald's specify fat content in its manual?)

Depending on the price you want to charge, a 1/3 pound burger will probably look and taste better.

This leads into my next question. Burger presentation. I already know that it is unacceptable to have the bun bigger in circumference than the burger itself. What seems more pleasing, the burger being the same size as the bun or overhanging the bun.

My personal preference is for a burger just a little bigger than the bun--another argument for the higher precooked weight.

Condiments
I personally like romaine lettuce over iceberg.
Beefsteak or Heirloom tomatoes.
Kosher dill pickles.
Red or White onions.
Home made mayo or Helmans.

What condiments do you like?

I'm with you on the lettuce. Will you be able to get a constant supply of good heirloom tomatoes year-round in Michigan? If not, go with the beefsteaks.

Red onions are sweeter than white ones, and if you're going to serve them sliced rather than chopped, I'd use the red variety. I'm partial to hamburger dills on the burger itself rather than kosher dill spears on the side, but if you are serving your burgers on a plate, I'd go with the spears. If you mainly plan to sell these to travel, find a source of kosher dill chips and place them on the burger. Given all the time and effort you're putting into the rest of the product, why not give yourself a break and use Hellman's? You're going to need large quantities of mayo, after all. But what about ketchup and mustard? (Dijon, preferably.)

Next would be burger thickness. I don’t want to be anywhere near the (oversized, super size, biggie) craze. But what would be a good thickness  of a burger. Keep in mind that it will be cooked on a griddle rather than a char broiler. Griddles have more cooking surface area than a char broiler.  I have also been thinking about grinding my own burgers. I was thinking, If I could make the burgers into meatball shapes, I could fit more fresh burgers in the fridge, not have to worry about them being smushed…if that’s a word, and then give them an initial smash when they are put on the grill, then they will have those beautiful irregular edges.

What are your thoughts?….

I'd definitely form my burgers as balls and flatten them just prior to throwing them on the grill. You will also get slightly thicker patties that way. For a 1/3 pound burger, I'd say a 1/4-inch-thick patty would look beautiful, but that thick of a patty might not fill the bun.

[PCL]

Been enjoying this thread, and I wish you luck Magus. One thing I wanted to throw into the mix (mind you I"ve only read up to like, halfway down page 2), is that perhaps you'd want to think about the packaging of takeaway products.

One of the issues that US-based food outlets are criticised for is the sheer amount of packaging involved. I mean, I was in SF like, 3 months ago, and most days I'd buy lunch from an outlet, be it tex-mex, burgers, sandwiches whatever.... the amount of plastic and styrofoam I had to deal with totally boggled my mind.

How would you deal with this at your establishment??

[Magus]

Been enjoying this thread, and I wish you luck Magus. One thing I wanted to throw into the mix (mind you I"ve only read up to like, halfway down page 2), is that perhaps you'd want to think about the packaging of takeaway products.

One of the issues that US-based food outlets are criticised for is the sheer amount of packaging involved. I mean, I was in SF like, 3 months ago, and most days I'd buy lunch from an outlet, be it tex-mex, burgers, sandwiches whatever.... the amount of plastic and styrofoam I had to deal with totally boggled my mind.

How would you deal with this at your establishment??

Well, as far as packaging...these are my thoughts.
Cold cups for sodas and milkshakes. (paper)
Burger Wrap (white butcher paper) with a sticker of the logo to hold the paper together. On this, I can short hand things like sandwiches (plus or minus) something.
Fries..(white paper cone)
Takeaway bag (white) with logo on it

[Magus]

Progress:

I found a place to park my establishment. I went to the owner (an older gentleman) and told him that I would like to park my establishment on his property. After I told him what I wanted to do, with the detail that I was going for the 1940-50 look he was so happy...he said that he will charge me $35 bucks a month....Wow.

Also, I have tracked down another source for Beef tallow. The only issue is that it is 95% beef tallow and 5% soybean oil. Does anyone know if this combo of shortening will be an issue.

Other offerings:

My thoughts.

Breaded red fish burger
Chopped lobster burger

Portabella burger
black bean burger

Blue cheese burger

marinated chicken burger

(sorry I dont have any names for the burgers yet)

Friers:
Regular potato
Sweet potato
O-Rings



Does anyone know anything about onion rings? I would like to make fresh onion rings but dont know the best onions to use for this. Should they be beer battered. or breaded.

Or

Should the menu be trimed down a bit...again, I would rather have a fantastic small menu than a good big menu.

Edited by Magus, 27 September 2005 - 09:15 AM.

[Jason Perlow]

Also, I have tracked down another source for Beef tallow. The only issue is that it is 95% beef tallow and 5% soybean oil. Does anyone know if this combo of shortening will be an issue.

No, its probably not an issue. Soybean oil is actually a very good oil for deep frying because of the very high smoke point.

[MarketStEl]

Progress:

I found a place to park my establishment. I went to the owner (an older gentleman) and told him that I would like to park my establishment on his property. After I told him what I wanted to do, with the detail that I was going for the 1940-50 look he was so happy...he said that he will charge me $35 bucks a month....Wow.

Congratulations!

Other offerings:

My thoughts.

Breaded red fish burger
Chopped lobster burger

Portabella burger
black bean burger

Blue cheese burger

marinated chicken burger

(sorry I dont have any names for the burgers yet)

Friers:
Regular potato
Sweet potato
O-Rings



Does anyone know anything about onion rings? I would like to make fresh onion rings but dont know the best onions to use for this. Should they be beer battered. or breaded.

Or

Should the menu be trimed down a bit...again, I would rather have a fantastic small menu than a good big menu.

I'd also focus on doing a few things well at the outset.

That said, it's a good idea to offer alternatives for your customers who might not want beef. I'd probably offer either chicken or fish but not both, plus the portabella mushroom burger--a nice, hearty-flavored offering for vegetarians.

How much room will you have to store stuff? That also needs to be factored in when considering what you can offer. I assume you will have access to a large freezer off-site where you can store whatever you will not be using that day? If the space in the trailer is as compact as I suspect it is, you should probably stick to three burgers, two or three cheeses (blue is a very good option), regular fries and maybe o-rings.

[Magus]

How much room will you have to store stuff?

Well, the entire trailer (kitchen) will be about 350sqft
Roughly 8x30 or 8x40...that range.

I assume you will have access to a large freezer off-site where you can store whatever you will not be using that day?

Yes, I have access to a commercial kitchen.

[TPO]

Sounds like things are going very well so far! As for the menu, I would stick with a just a few basic items, but then offer the types of condiments that would offer a lot of variety to those few items.

Breaded red fish burger: A fish burger is nice, but not necessary. Do it if you can, but if it turns out to not be feasable don't worry about it.

Chopped lobster burger: Personally, I wouldn't do it. But then, I live in Maine and have a thing against lobster that's been frozen or refrigerated for any period of time.

Portabella burger: Most definitely! There are restaurants I go to just because they offer this. It's an easy solution for vegetarians.

black bean burger: I don't think I'd bother with this and portobello burgers. I'd pick one, and then add the other if you feel the demand is there. If bean burgers make more sense because they are not as perishable as portobello mushrooms, then by all means start with bean burgers.

marinated chicken burger: Personally, if I were dining at your establishment I would love seeing a chicken option more than a fish option. I think chicken is almost a necessity, whereas I think fish burgers would be nice only if you have the ability to do both.

As for the blue cheese burger, I'd offer at least three different cheeses (and for me, one would have to be feta!) to allow people to have a variety of sandwiches.

[Magus]

No, its probably not an issue. Soybean oil is actually a very good oil for deep frying because of the very high smoke point.

High smoke point? Does this mean that the oil breakdown is less. (last longer)
I can cook at higher temps?

[Magus]

Potato issue:

I just got off the phone with my local produce guy and he informed me of the following.

The kind of potatoes that I wanted Russet Burbank are not available all year, I guess there are two months out of the year where they are not available.

He also went on to tell me that the Burbank is only one kind of Russet. They also grow a potato called Norcoda and Gold Rush. From what I gather, the Burbank is the best because of the low moisture content. They will be unavailable from the middle of Sept to the end of Oct. This means that I may need to switch to the Gold Rush potato and adjust the fryer temp to acount for the higher moisture content.

With a fresh potato, I will also have to deal with the price going up and down along with potato size. These I can not control...I have to leave this up to mother nature and the whole supply and demand rules of the market.

It takes alot of work to produce a great product. Now I see why so many (fast food) establishments go with a frozen fry

[shelora]

Potato issue:

I just got off the phone with my local produce guy and he informed me of the following.

The kind of potatoes that I wanted Russet Burbank are not available all year, I guess there are two months out of the year where they are not available.

He also went on to tell me that the Burbank is only one kind of Russet. They also grow a potato called Norcoda and Gold Rush. From what I gather, the Burbank is the best because of the low moisture content. They will be unavailable from the middle of Sept to the end of Oct. This means that I may need to switch to the Gold Rush potato and adjust the fryer temp to acount for the higher moisture content.

With a fresh potato, I will also have to deal with the price going up and down along with potato size. These I can not control...I have to leave this up to mother nature and the whole supply and demand rules of the market.

It takes alot of work to produce a great product. Now I see why so many (fast food) establishments go with a frozen fry

Having done some research into the French fries available where I live, the restaurnts who cut their own use, without a doubt, Kennebeck potatoes. Why? Consistency. The majority of these potatoes hail from the U.S. Have you ever heard of them?
I found the oil used in frying is 100% canola, with one location using peanut oil and another beef tallow.
All the places have different degrees of fry excellence but the potato used remains the same throughout. I've seen these great boxes of spuds in restaurants and each potato is pretty much the same size.

Edited by shelora, 27 September 2005 - 11:46 AM.

[divalasvegas]

Progress:

I found a place to park my establishment. I went to the owner (an older gentleman) and told him that I would like to park my establishment on his property. After I told him what I wanted to do, with the detail that I was going for the 1940-50 look he was so happy...he said that he will charge me $35 bucks a month....Wow.

Also, I have tracked down another source for Beef tallow. The only issue is that it is 95% beef tallow and 5% soybean oil. Does anyone know if this combo of shortening will be an issue. 

Other offerings:

My thoughts.

Breaded red fish burger
Chopped lobster burger

Portabella burger
black bean burger

Blue cheese burger

marinated chicken burger

(sorry I dont have any names for the burgers yet)

Friers:
Regular potato
Sweet potato
O-Rings



Does anyone know anything about onion rings? I would like to make fresh onion rings but dont know the best onions to use for this. Should they be beer battered. or breaded.

Or

Should the menu be trimed down a bit...again, I would rather have a fantastic small menu than a good big menu.

You have so many great ideas Magus. I just had a couple of opinions/suggestions and questions for you:

I agree with everyone else here who has advised you to keep it small. When I think of the original McDonalds menu and what their menu looks like today, well it's dizzying IMHO.

When you say "fish burger" are you thinking of a fish fillet? What kind? What kind of fish is local, from Michigan rivers that you can purchase for a good price and are of good quality year-round? Or (shudder) are you speaking of a reconstituted, rectangular fish product like micky-d's? To start, I'd go with the beef burger, portobella burger, and the chicken burger/fillet although the chopped lobster burger sounds delicious.

Bless you for the beef tallow blend for the fries. Battered onion rings for sure. Sweet potato fries are intriguing. Have you considered making the final product have a salty/sweet taste, say, right after they come out of the fryer they get a hit of salt and raw/turbinado sugar? I know a lot of people like that flavor contrast (including me).

As for cheese for the beef burger, how about adding two more: a good aged cheddar and a swiss cheese?

And for condiments, I've always loved the option of a good horseradish mayo type concoction every once in a while. I remember Roy Rogers used to offer that for their roast beef sandwiches.

Best of luck and when you franchise, please consider the DC/Metro area, okay?

[Magus]

Having done some research into the French fries available where I live, the restaurnts who cut their own use, without a doubt, Kennebeck potatoes. Why? Consistency. The majority of these potatoes hail from the U.S. Have you ever heard of them?

I have not heard of them but I am researching them now..thank you so much.

Edited by Magus, 27 September 2005 - 11:59 AM.

[Magus]

Progress:

When you say "fish burger" are you thinking of a fish fillet?

Red fish

  Or (shudder) are you speaking of a reconstituted, rectangular fish product like micky-d's?

I would rather drill screws into my toenails than to serve that!!!!

Have you considered making the final product have a salty/sweet taste, say, right after they come out of the fryer they get a hit of salt and raw/turbinado sugar?  I know a lot of people like that flavor contrast (including me).

No, I have not thought of that, BUT! I am currently working on a salt and balslamic vinegar combo. I am trying to get the mixture right to be able to mist the mixture over the fries without making them soggy.

As for cheese for the beef burger, how about adding two more: a good aged cheddar and a swiss cheese?

I like thoes ideas...I also like feta.

And for condiments, I've always loved the option of a good horseradish mayo type concoction

Funny you say that, I already have one and it has been very well recieved so far. I also have a garlic mayo for the lemon garlic marinated chicken burger.

Best of luck and when you franchise, please consider the DC/Metro area, okay?

I think I would rather remain a small guy with a big rep.

[MarketStEl]

No, its probably not an issue. Soybean oil is actually a very good oil for deep frying because of the very high smoke point.

High smoke point? Does this mean that the oil breakdown is less. (last longer)
I can cook at higher temps?

Yes to all your questions.

The higher the oil's smoke point, the longer you can use it, because it won't break down as quickly.

Of course, if you cook at higher temperatures, you accelerate the breakdown process.

[MarketStEl]

One more comment after looking at your post on how you plan to package your food:

You're in Michigan. It gets cold there in the winter.

Given any thought to offering hot coffee and tea, or hot chocolate in season?

[shelora]

Ever heard of poutine? It's a French Canadian "delicacy" involving melted cheese curds and gravy over French fries.
On a cold winter day with lots of black pepper? Watch out.

[divalasvegas]

Progress:

Best of luck and when you franchise, please consider the DC/Metro area, okay?

I think I would rather remain a small guy with a big rep.

Amen to that!

One more question. When it comes to beverages other than milk shakes are you going to start out with fountain sodas or just figure out what's the most popular in that area and use a refrigeration unit? My guess is that a refrigeration unit would be the cheaper option, with whatever you determine to be most popular served in bottles or cans (a few less paper/styrofoam products to worry about), at least in the short run.

Again, I wish you all the best.

[Magus]

One more question.  When it comes to beverages other than milk shakes are you going to start out with fountain sodas or just figure out what's the most popular in that area and use a refrigeration unit?

That is a hard question. I like the "idea" of havig fountain drinks and I may do this, but I remember on my visits down south, they had soda in tall skinny bottles. I liked thoes alot...the drinks just seemed to taste different.

I believe that I will go with fountain drinks. I cant afford to take any shortcuts. The reason why I want to push my own brand of items. I "want" to be as self reliant as possible.

Yes, Can soda would be less trouble but live in MI where a deposit is 10 cents. These are dimes that I will spend and never see again and this adds up. On the other hand...I did find the distributor for Papaya King Juices.

[Pan]

Just a couple of thoughts:

(1) If you're going to go the seafood route, how about crab cakes or burgers instead of lobster burgers? I think it's probably easier to buy good lumpen crab meat than good lobster meat. Lobsters that aren't completely fresh just aren't good, but my possibly erroneous impression is that crab seems to keep a bit better.

(2) It's really hard to find good onion rings. You need to keep the batter thin and use good-sized rings of high-quality onion. There are fewer onion ring fanatics than french fry folks, but we can be really rabid, so if you get known for serving superior onion rings, word could travel fast.

[Shalmanese]

I know your at the stage where you are commited to an excellent product but have you sat down and thought about how much this is all going to cost and what your going to have to price stuff as to make a profit?

It may well turn out that a "casual" burger at your place would cost comparable to a sit-down meal. I know quality counts and all that but you have to also realise that most people are unwilling to pay that much. Especially if your in a out-of-the-way location. Then again, your rent is minimal and you have no staff costs so you can probably afford to build up business slowly and organically.

[Magus]

I know your at the stage where you are commited to an excellent product but have you sat down and thought about how much this is all going to cost and what your going to have to price stuff as to make a profit?

It may well turn out that a "casual" burger at your place would cost comparable to a sit-down meal. I know quality counts and all that but you have to also realise that most people are unwilling to pay that much. Especially if your in a out-of-the-way location. Then again, your rent is minimal and you have no staff costs so you can probably afford to build up business slowly and organically.

Well...I am a strong believer that if it doesn't make dollars it doesn't make sense.
So I am very well aware of all the numbers.

Commited to an excellent product?...I think that may be an understatement ...I am in the obsessed relm at this point.

My first goal is to please my customers by making sure that EVERY burger that is served form my establishment is of great quality and taste. By focusing on all of my customers first...all else will be a piece of cake.

Edited by Magus, 27 September 2005 - 06:47 PM.

[M.X.Hassett]

"Commited to an excellent product?...I think that may be an understatement ...I am in the obsessed relm at this point." Magus

This is great to hear, a lot of the time people starting a food service business will only think of the numbers and turning a profit. I think that by focusing on a great product a business has a much better chance in the long run than ones just focused on cost.

It is refreshing to see people turn to EGullet for advice on this you, Glenn Susser (melt), Eric Eisenbud (I do not think he has settled on a name yet but same deal as you but with hotdogs), Lazrowp (kaiten [spl] style sushi in Pennsylvania), and many others.

Best of wishes to you and your business, that balsamic salt spray sounds great. Damb now I am going to have to fly out to MI.

Edited by M.X.Hassett, 27 September 2005 - 06:49 PM.

[savvysearch]

Do you have a secret sauce or are you going basic with the condiments? You should also consider malted shakes instead of milkshakes. Many prefer them over regular milkshakes.

In-n-out has a great way of wrapping their burgers in waxed paper and placing them in paper pouches. Visually, it makes the burgers more appetizing.

According the the Les Halles cookbook, Bourdain prefers beef fat, but says beef fat breaks down too quickly and is expensive and difficult to handle in a busy restaurant. Both Bourdain and Thomas Keller use peanut oil for the fries.


Here is something said by Alan Richman that may be useful to you from July 2005 GQ where he ranks the 20 best burgers in the nation:

I've always believed this about burgers. The best beef is chuck, which is particularly flavorful. Ordinary ground beef is bland. Sirloin is magnificent but perhaps overly aristocratic. Ground round is almost always too dry. I also believe in the hand-formed, loosely packed burger. Performed patties are useful but never great, because compressed meat is incapable of rising above mediocrity. Here are a few words youve never heard spoken at the conclusion of a meal "That pressed food was mighty good."

Edited by savvysearch, 27 September 2005 - 08:58 PM.

[divalasvegas]

Hello again Magnus. I think that the points made here about everyone's admiration for your devotion to quality are dead on. No one here wants to eat at yet another place that "taste's" like all they care about is the bottom line. However, because I am so excited for you and your vision, I must reiterate Shalmanese's point about cost. Have you figured out, to your satisfaction, how much money EACH DAY you are in operation you will have to make to:

Just to break even, as in take care of you and yours, as well as all of every possible thing that you might be conceivably responsible for, both forseeable and not: rent, insurance (insurance costs that many savvy business owners never imagined), taxes at all levels, workman's comp, some bizarro turn in events, i.e., burger sales going way down after another Oprah vs. meat industry battle publicity disaster, cold feet by investor relatives/friends, and other financial issues that only a psychic friend could foresee? And, let alone make a profit? Actually, although I decry the decline of Food Network programming, have you ever watched one of their newer shows, "Recipe for Success?" As someone who has never been in the for-profit end of the food industry, I think that this show is a pretty good one and tells some cautionary tales for those hoping to start off on their own in the food business.

You seem to have a) given a lot of forethought to your dream; and, b) come to just the right place (eG) for all of the good advice I've seen given to you.

As I have said before, all the best to you.

Edited for spelling

Edited by divalasvegas, 27 September 2005 - 09:45 PM.