114 replies to this topic

[eje]

First there was curaçao, an orange liqueur produced on the Dutch Carribbean island of Curaçao using the peels of the local bitter oranges.

I thought that too, and it may still be possible; but, I'm not sure the dates add up for that version of history.

Grand Marnier, according to their website originally named "Curacao Marnier," has been produced since 1827.

Cointreau has been produced since 1849.

It doesn't seem like the Senior family started distilling on Curacao until 1888 or so. Most of the modern rum houses, (Bacardi, Clement, Havana Club,) were founded around the same time, between the 1830s and 1900.

If there was rum based orange liqueur coming from the West Indies in prior to 1827, it was likely not very nice.

From what I can tell, the European Orange liqueurs probably pre-dated the ones actually produced in the islands.

[eje]

Another quote I've never known quite what to make of, is from the Liqueurs de France Website:

Distillery Combier

Triple Sec was invented in 1834 by Jean-Baptiste Combier and its recipe has been copied many times, but never bettered. Sun-dried orange skins from Haiti are steeped in alcohol for 24 hours and distilled in 100 year-old copper stills to give a bitter sweet liqueur that can be drunk on its own or used as a irreplaceable ingredient in a top-shelf margarita. Try the original and taste the difference!

The liqueur itself is not excessively expensive, at least once you get over the shipping, or the balance of the other tempting items you might accidentally purchase from LdF.

[slkinsey]

First there was curaçao, an orange liqueur produced on the Dutch Carribbean island of Curaçao using the peels of the local bitter oranges.

I thought that too, and it may still be possible; but, I'm not sure the dates add up for that version of history.

Grand Marnier, according to their website originally named "Curacao Marnier," has been produced since 1827.

Cointreau has been produced since 1849.

It doesn't seem like the Senior family started distilling on Curacao until 1888 or so. Most of the modern rum houses, (Bacardi, Clement, Havana Club,) were founded around the same time, between the 1830s and 1900.

If there was rum based orange liqueur coming from the West Indies in prior to 1827, it was likely not very nice.

From what I can tell, the European Orange liqueurs probably pre-dated the ones actually produced in the islands.

Yea, that's hard to say.

I'm not sure Senior is saying that they are the original producers of curaçao liqueur, but rather that their product is the only "original" because it's the only one made on the island of Curaçao exclusively with local bitter orange peel. It's a bit like Crystal saying, "we're the only ones making the 'original Louisiana-style hot sauce' because we're the only ones making the sauce in Louisiana exclusively with local ingredients" (for clarification: Texas Pete, a Louisiana-style hot sauce, is made in North Carolina). That's not quite the same thing as saying, "we invented Louisiana-style hot sauce" -- although it is cleverly worded to make it seem as though that's what they're saying.

As for precedence, given the fact that sugarcane plantations in the Caribbean were making rum as far back as, say, the 1600s, it's not a far reach to think that someone might have thought of dumping in some dried orange peels and extra sugar. This would put it well before Grand Marnier. I'm not sure we have to believe that the alcohol for the original curaçao liqueur was distilled locally, and I doubt it would have been re-distilled following infusion.

Another quote I've never known quite what to make of, is from the Liqueurs de France Website:

Distillery Combier

Triple Sec was invented in 1834 by Jean-Baptiste Combier and its recipe has been copied many times, but never bettered. Sun-dried orange skins from Haiti are steeped in alcohol for 24 hours and distilled in 100 year-old copper stills to give a bitter sweet liqueur that can be drunk on its own or used as a irreplaceable ingredient in a top-shelf margarita. Try the original and taste the difference!

The liqueur itself is not excessively expensive, at least once you get over the shipping, or the balance of the other tempting items you might accidentally purchase from LdF.

I find some of their claims a little dubious, but maybe they're right. What they say in their history is that the Combiers were confectioners who opened a shop in Saumur in 1832, and they "began to make liqueurs in their back shop." By 1848, they became full-time makers of liqueur. Cointreau didn't start making their famous triple sec until 1875.

So the questions are: Is the liqueur sold by the Combiers today meaningfully similar to the one they were making back in the 1840s -- which is to say, would we recognize it as "triple sec"? Or might it be the case that they were making something a bit different, and simply called it "triple sec"? Or were they making something we might recognize as "triple sec-like" but calling it something else? If they were making something called "triple sec" and that we would recognize as triple sec as early as 1834, why is it that the product seems to be unknown until Cointreau's 1875 debut? Regardless, it seems clear that the Cointreau model is the one that defined the category (so much so that Cointreau removed "triple sec" from their bottle and re-branded as simply "Cointreau" after the market was flooded with cheap immitators in knockoff bottles).

Edited by slkinsey, 04 April 2007 - 07:34 AM.

[eje]

An interesting orange liqueur tidbit in Gary Regan's column for the San Francisco Chronicle this week.

New Orleans cocktail journeys to Cognac

At the house of Cognac Frapin I met a remarkable man by the name of Max Cointreau. He's now the patriarch of the Frapin household and a descendant of the people who created Cointreau in the mid-1870s. It's one of my very favorite liqueurs. And Max Cointreau is a delight.

I didn't hear any earth-shattering secrets about Cointreau from Max, save the fact that it was originally deemed a "triple sec" because the third recipe used during the development phase of this fine, dry, peppery orange-flavored liqueur, was the one that is still used today.

Also includes a rather nice sounding orange liqueur and Cognac based drink called "La Tour Eiffel".

[slkinsey]

[url=http://forums.egullet.org/index.php?showtopic=37373]Posted in this thread on Canadian Whisky[url]:

i like boycotting things....

cointreau
grand marnier
canadian whiskey
chambord
vodka
chilean pisco....
kahlua
bailey's

Why on earth would you "boycott" Cointreau and Grand Marnier? Not only are they two of the oldest and highest quality orange liqueurs in the world, but Cointreau is a fundamental ingredient in a huge number of the best classic cocktails.

Edited by slkinsey, 23 May 2007 - 01:01 PM.

[bostonapothecary]

Why on earth would you "boycott" Cointreau and Grand Marnier?  Not only are they two of the oldest and highest quality orange liqueurs in the world, but Cointreau is a fundamental ingredient in a huge number of the best classic cocktails.

they are so expensive. i started drinking creole shrub.

[slkinsey]

Hmm. I get Cointreau for 30 bucks a liter at Warehouse Spirits here in Manhattan. Doesn't strike me as all that much money compared to, e.g., any of the Van Winkle or Anchor Distilling whiskeys; gins such as Hendrick's, Junìpero, etc; Favorite and Niesson Rhum Agricole, etc. And I would argue that Cointreau is at least as high quality a spirit as the others I listed, not to mention that Cointreau is used in much smaller amounts than these base spirits and therefore one bottle's worth equals a vastly larger number of cocktails.

Creole Shrub is fine, for what it is. But I wouldn't consider it a substitute for Cointreau. A Sidecar with Creole Shrub instead of Cointreau? No, thanks.

[Kouign Aman]

has anyone tried Mandarine Napoleon ? (sp)

[thirtyoneknots]

Hmm.  I get Cointreau for 30 bucks a liter at Warehouse Spirits here in Manhattan. 

I am so jealous. The cheapest I have ever seen Cointreau in Texas is $28/fifth. I know that the cost to my place of employ is closer to $40-45/liter. Of course we buy from a local package store that seems to get kicks from screwing us over. I do love me some Cointreau though.

[bostonapothecary]

Hmm.  I get Cointreau for 30 bucks a liter at Warehouse Spirits here in Manhattan.  Doesn't strike me as all that much money compared to, e.g., any of the Van Winkle or Anchor Distilling whiskeys; gins such as Hendrick's, Junìpero, etc; Favorite and Niesson Rhum Agricole, etc.  And I would argue that Cointreau is at least as high quality a spirit as the others I listed, not to mention that Cointreau is used in much smaller amounts than these base spirits and therefore one bottle's worth equals a vastly larger number of cocktails.

Creole Shrub is fine, for what it is.  But I wouldn't consider it a substitute for Cointreau.  A Sidecar with Creole Shrub instead of Cointreau?  No, thanks.

i'm just naturally iconoclastic....

when you see a polarization of the classes you react. i see that too many people associate cocktails with the upper class and think therefore its not for them. it may seem different in a different city.... but i try to make my focus not about the perfect nuanced whiskey for a drink that some one else just might not get, but much more about acid/brix/bitter.

so i try to throw out established bourgeois things and make stuff for the blue collar.
cointreau may be perfect but from my strange seeming perspective there is negative cultural resonance....

[Splificator]

Something to toss into the debate about curacaos on page one of this thread. This advertisement, from 1899 or very soon thereafter, is one of the many interesting ads found nestleed among all the wack drinks contained in the 1985 Larousse Book of Cocktails.

[eje]

I recently was looking through some old books about distilling (M. McKENNIE's 1871 English translation of Duplais' "A TREATISE on the MANUFACTURE AND DISTILLATION of ALCOHOLIC LIQUORS.")

The book fairly large sections on liqueurs.

I did notice that there is a classification for liqueurs called "double" and another called "Third Fine". Notwithstanding Messrs Cointreau et Regan, I do wonder if the use of the word "triple" is somehow related to these traditional classifications.

Classification of Liqueurs.
  Liqueurs which are prepared by distillation (or maceration), or by the solution of the essences, are divided into four principal classes : common (ordinaires), half fine (demi-fines) , fine (fines), and superfine (surfines) liqueurs.

  The third fine (liqueurs teirs-fines) liqueurs are known only in the city of Paris ; they are prepared by mixing the common and half-fine in equal parts.

  Double liqueurs (liqueurs doubles) are manufactured everywhere else in France except in Paris; and the suburbs of the city ship them in considerable quantities.

  The classification of liqueurs depends on the proportions of alcohol, perfume, sugar, and water employed in the manufacture, as well as in the care given to their preparation.

  The names waters and oils (eaux et huiles) are applied more particularly to common (ordinaires) liqueurs ; there are, however, some liqueurs of superior quality which are also known by these names. The names creams and elixirs (cremes et elixirs) are given almost exclusively to fine and superfine liqueurs. These last are further divided into several kinds, as French, foreign, and West Indian liqueurs (Francaisee, etrangeres et des Iles) . The ratafias are liqueurs composed of infusions of fruits or aromatic substances.

[eje]

Something to toss into the debate about curacaos on page one of this thread. This advertisement, from 1899 or very soon thereafter, is one of the many interesting ads found nestleed among all the wack drinks contained in the 1985 Larousse Book of Cocktails.

Huh, so I guess using Grand Marnier when a cocktail recipe calls for Curacao, is appropriate?

Also answers my question about there being Curacaos other than the Brizard made with aged brandy!

So, if the Brizard Orange Curacao was originally a Curacao Marnier clone, does that mean Brizard now has two products on the market based on Marnier's orange liqueur?

[Splificator]

First of all, my caption to that picture should read 1889, not 1899; by 1901, Curacao Marnier was calling itself Grand Marnier (perhaps as a result of winning all those medals). And yeah, this pretty much proves that Grand Marnier is to orange curacao as Cointreau is to white or triple-sec curacao.

As for the teminology. Unfortunately, the history of curacao is a sort of third rail for the would-be drink historian; I've found it so, anyway--as soon as you think you've got something figured out, something else comes up to prove you wrong.

Case in point, that extract from Duplais. This could very well explain the "triple orange" in the poster. But then there's this, from Artaud de Montor's 1837 Encyclopédie des gens du monde & c.:

EAUX DISTILLÉS
…les eaux distilleés ont été divisées en odorantes et non-odorantes, et l’on a remarqué que leur vertu dépendait en grand partie de la manière dont la distillation avait été conduite. Lorsqu’on veut les avoir parfaits, il faut faire passer plusiers fois la meme eau sur de nouvelles plantes: c’est ce qu’on nomme eaux distillés doubles, triples.

A rough translation:

Distilled spirits have been classified as fragrant or non-fragrant, and it has been remarked that their virtue depends in large part on the manner in which the distillation has been performed. Should one wish them to be perfect, one must pass the same distillate several times over new botanicals; this makes for what are kown as "double" spirits, "triple" spirits etc.

So--a "triple" curacao is one that has been distilled three times, with a fresh batch of orange peel used in each distillation. All well and good, but by the time Curacao Marnier and Cointreau were on the market, pot-still distillation (a batch process) was being replaced by the continuous column-still process, which makes those three separate distillations obsolete.

Then again, as far as I can tell these terms weren't regulated, so it could be mere empty verbiage, stating in effect merely that it's a high-quality product with a concentrated orange flavor. But I'm not sure what to make of the passage from Duplais, or how Grand Marnier's cognac base figures into things.

P.S. I think this last factor explains the two MB products: most curacaos use a neutral spirit base, not a brandy base like the GM Cordon Rouge (indeed, there used to be--and maybe still is--a cheaper, neutral spirit-based Grand Marnier, the "Cordon Jaune," or Yellow Ribbon). Thus two grades of orange curacao, with an MB for each.

[eje]

I was thinking about Curacao based on some discussion over at the DrinkBoy MSN forums.

Then, a friend asked to borrow some Orange Curacao so he could try to make himself a Mai Tai. Of course, one of the most famous uses of Curacao is Trader Vic's Mai Tai.

To the best of my knowledge, however, Vic always recommended DeKuyper, (or another Dutch Curacao,) based on neutral spirits, rather than the ones blended with brandy, like Brizard or Grand Marnier.

Were the original Curacaos then orange macerations, probably based on rum, like the Creole Shrubb liqueur? Then when the europeans got ahold of them, they started distilling the peels, and it evolved into the more sophisticated liqueurs like Cointreau and Grand Marnier.

In reproducing older recipes, what is the best thing to look for in a Curacao? Is its function mostly for sweetness? If so, then why is it so often used in combination with gum syrup? Or is it also there for the bitter orange kick you'd get from a macerated liqueur?

[bostonapothecary]

I was thinking about Curacao based on some discussion over at the DrinkBoy MSN forums.

Then, a friend asked to borrow some Orange Curacao so he could try to make himself a Mai Tai.  Of course, one of the most famous uses of Curacao is Trader Vic's Mai Tai.

To the best of my knowledge, however, Vic always recommended DeKuyper, (or another Dutch Curacao,) based on neutral spirits, rather than the ones blended with brandy, like Brizard or Grand Marnier.

Were the original Curacaos then orange macerations, probably based on rum, like the Creole Shrubb liqueur?  Then when the europeans got ahold of them, they started distilling the peels, and it evolved into the more sophisticated liqueurs like Cointreau and Grand Marnier.

In reproducing older recipes, what is the best thing to look for in a Curacao?  Is its function mostly for sweetness?  If so, then why is it so often used in combination with gum syrup?  Or is it also there for the bitter orange kick you'd get from a macerated liqueur?

i still firmly believe that creole shrub is the only orange liqueur worth mixing... but there are still lots of questions to answer to seperate it from other similar products... do you lose a bitter quality when the orange peels are distilled like in cointreau? both options have incredible amounts of sugar... any type of bitter quality would seem like a huge asset at those levels... also wouldn't a fortifying option with more character be more fun? i love the flavor and the rustic appeal of the shrub. i don't exactly know what the added effort of distilling the liqueur does but my limited experience makes distilled options seem over engineered...

i think i should submit myself to a blind taste test and see which one i prefer... and then follow it up with a blind pegu club cocktail test just to make sure...

[jmfangio]

What do you folks think about the Prunier Liqueur d'Orange?

The money quote from the linked LA Times article:

Prunier La Lieutenance Liqueur d'Orange. Not only does this make a great gift, but tasting it side by side with Grand Marnier and Cointreau makes it clear that it's time to rethink one's house orange liqueur. A beautiful burnished orange color, the Prunier La Lieutenance has candied orange peel scents and a deep flavor that's a bit more sophisticated and less sweet than the big two. A natural for mixing in cocktails, it's also terrific to sip on its own.

I picked up a bottle just before Christmas, and have tried it in a couple of cocktails that usually call for Cointreau. I'm making what I'm now calling the Corpse Reviver 2 1/2, swapping out the Prunier for the Cointreau, and Cocchi Aperitivo Americano for the Lillet. Fabulous.

Edited by jmfangio, 07 January 2008 - 10:50 PM.

[eje]

[...]

Prunier La Lieutenance Liqueur d'Orange. Not only does this make a great gift, but tasting it side by side with Grand Marnier and Cointreau makes it clear that it's time to rethink one's house orange liqueur. A beautiful burnished orange color, the Prunier La Lieutenance has candied orange peel scents and a deep flavor that's a bit more sophisticated and less sweet than the big two. A natural for mixing in cocktails, it's also terrific to sip on its own.

[...]

Well, it is a nice selection of liqueurs and amaros in the article, (including my personal hobby horse Cocchi Americano,) and hard to argue with their opinions about most of the ones I have tried.

Though, to me, pushing the VEP Chartreuse offerings is more about conspicuous consumption than anything else. Has a rap song been written about them yet?

In regards the prunier, I have heard the, "it's time to rethink one's house orange liqueur," line so many times and have been disappointed so many times, that I would only really be willing to pony up for yet another bottle of orange liqueur if I tried the Prunier first before buying it.

[Mayur]

Would you take a second opinion?

I'm a huge fan of the Prunier, and it has become my go-to orange liqueur ever since I picked up a 375ml at LeNell's. Similar flavor notes to GM, but ratcheted way down on the sweetness and has a bit more of the slightly bitter post-tannic quality I've noted in some cognacs.

[Mayur]

Though, to me, pushing the VEP Chartreuse offerings is more about conspicuous consumption than anything else.  Has a rap song been written about them yet?

No, but PDT in New York has a new "high roller" menu featuring a Last Word that uses the VEP!

[Edited for clarity.]

Edited by Mayur, 08 January 2008 - 11:06 PM.

[eje]

One of the things that has always bugged me about Senior's Curacao of Curacao, is their spurious claims to be the "authentic" curacao liqueur. I love their liqueur, but it seems to me their claims to be the "authentic" or "original" Orange Curacao just pretty silly.

It is true that they are the only liqueur distillery on the Island of Curacao.

However, it appears, from their website or another, that the company wasn't even founded until some time in the mid 1800s and both Cointreau and Grand Marnier were making their eponymous products by that time.

Anyway, so I asked Philip Duff, who has a relationship with Bols, how long he thought that company had been making Curacao.

His response:

I just got off the phone with Ton, who confirmed Bols were making curacao already in the 1600s, and there's an original recipe book, from Bols, from 1726 on display in the House of Bols in Amsterdam with curacao recipes. So, for the details guys at least since 1726, but realistically a lot, lot earlier...

[Alcuin]

One of the things that has always bugged me about Senior's Curacao of Curacao, is their spurious claims to be the "authentic" curacao liqueur.  I love their liqueur, but it seems to me their claims to be the "authentic" or "original" Orange Curacao just pretty silly.

It is true that they are the only liqueur distillery on the Island of Curacao.

However, it appears, from their website or another, that the company wasn't even founded until some time in the mid 1800s and both Cointreau and Grand Marnier were making their eponymous products by that time.

Anyway, so I asked Philip Duff, who has a relationship with Bols, how long he thought that company had been making Curacao.

His response:

I just got off the phone with Ton, who confirmed Bols were making curacao already in the 1600s, and there's an original recipe book, from Bols, from 1726 on display in the House of Bols in Amsterdam with curacao recipes. So, for the details guys at least since 1726, but realistically a lot, lot earlier...

Ahh, marketing. I use Senior Curacao of Curacao because it's the only one I've been able to find that isn't blue (besides Grand Marnier, but that's a lot more expensive). I suspect that the only reason they even carry it where I buy it is because it comes in a fancy-looking bottle, has a long pompous name, and perhaps because it has pretensions to originality.

It's a good liqueur though. I'm glad its available and I'm not sure it would be without all the marketing bells and whistles.

[thirtyoneknots]

One of the things that has always bugged me about Senior's Curacao of Curacao, is their spurious claims to be the "authentic" curacao liqueur.  I love their liqueur, but it seems to me their claims to be the "authentic" or "original" Orange Curacao just pretty silly.

It is true that they are the only liqueur distillery on the Island of Curacao.

However, it appears, from their website or another, that the company wasn't even founded until some time in the mid 1800s and both Cointreau and Grand Marnier were making their eponymous products by that time.

Anyway, so I asked Philip Duff, who has a relationship with Bols, how long he thought that company had been making Curacao.

His response:

I just got off the phone with Ton, who confirmed Bols were making curacao already in the 1600s, and there's an original recipe book, from Bols, from 1726 on display in the House of Bols in Amsterdam with curacao recipes. So, for the details guys at least since 1726, but realistically a lot, lot earlier...

I wonder at what point the beverage in question began to resemble something we would recognise though...surely it would have changed a bit over 400 years. I'll certainly give credit to Bols and all but I'd be shocked if you could make a palatable Sidecar or Mai Tai with 17th century versions of orange liqueur.

[eje]

[...]
I wonder at what point the beverage in question began to resemble something we would recognise though...surely it would have changed a bit over 400 years. I'll certainly give credit to Bols and all but I'd be shocked if you could make a palatable Sidecar or Mai Tai with 17th century versions of orange liqueur.

To be honest, I don't think either distilling or the traditional recipes used for these liqueurs have changed that much. I've seen some 18th and 19th century disiller's manuals. Following the procedures in those books, I suspect you'd come up with something at least as palatable as modern Cointreau or Curacao, if not better.

Here's a better question, what do you think the distillers of the 17th, 18th, or 19th century would say about the vast majority of the products currently sold under the name Curacao or Triple Sec?

[bostonapothecary]

i just saw an old bottle of mexican "citronge" orange liqueur in a liquor store... the label looked old and had no mention of patron. the bottom of the bottle formed in glass said something like "made in mexico city". so did "citronge" exist pre patron?

[shantytownbrown]

In my home bar, what orange flavored liquor(s) should i have on hand...
they get ubiquitously substituted at our home, with Cointreau being our staple (currently Patron Citronage finishing up a stand-in appearance). We use them for many different concotions, both tiki and traditional, plus a few of my own experiments...

Do I need...
a Curacao?
a Brandy/Cognac based, eg Gran Marnier?
and a triple Sec (cheapo or Cointreau, etc?)

if so, what brands of each do you like and why?

thanks in advance

SB

Edited by shantytownbrown, 28 December 2008 - 02:32 PM.

[slkinsey]

If you have Cointreau and Grand Marnier, you're set.

[eje]

I'm not really sure anyone needs Grand Marnier, unless they are inordinately fond of B-52s and the like, but it doesn't hurt to have it.

Remember, any Tiki Type recipe is likely calling for something like the DeKuyper or Bols Curacao, which are neutral spirits based.

In regards 19th Century drink making, I was reading through the Mud Puddle re-release of the 1862 The Bartender's Guide: How to Mix Drinks: A Bon Vivant's Companion and came across recipe 188 in the first section (not Christian Schultz) section of the book:

188. English Curacao
Cut away the peel of oranges very thin, until you have obtained half a dozen ounces of it; put these into a quart bottle, and then pour in a pint of genuine whiskey.  Cork the bottle down tightly, and let the rind remain infused for ten or twelve days, giving the bottle a good shake as often as you have an opportunity for so doing; at the end of this period, take out the orange peel, and fill the bottle with clarified syrup, shake it well with the spirit, and let it remain for three days.  Pour a teacupfull of the liqueur into a mortar, and beat up a drachm of powdered alum and an equal quantity of carbonate of potash; pour this, when well mixed, into the bottle, shake it well, and in a week you will find the Curacoa perfectly transparent, and equal in flavor to that imported from Malines, or any other place in the universe.

Any insight into the function of alum and potash? Is that just to clarify and preserve?

[shantytownbrown]

If you have Cointreau and Grand Marnier, you're set.

any opinions on Cointreau vs Patron Citronage?

[slkinsey]

Cointreau is better.