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Demo: Baguette a l'ancienne

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44 replies to this topic

#31 joesan

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Posted 03 October 2005 - 07:56 AM

Jack - I am either a fool or a pedant but could you please give us an exact outline of the refresh process on a step by step basis because I can't quite follow the refresh method.

e.g.

1. Take x of starter add to y and z of flour and water.
2. Ferment for a hours at b temp
3. Pour away c of existing starter and add starter/flour/water mix.
4. Repeat etc.


If you can be bothered a similar outline of what we need to do on a regular basis to maintain a healthy starter would also be good.

#32 jackal10

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Posted 03 October 2005 - 08:06 AM

Refreshment:

1. Take 100gm/4oz of starter add to 100gm/4 oz of flour and 100gm/4 oz water.
2. Ferment for 8-12 hours at 30C/85F temp
3. Repeat (100gm is about 1/3rd of the starter mix)
etc.

The starter can be held in the fridge almost indefinately between baking sessions (say up to a couple of months). It will seperate into two layers.
When you want to bake take a tablespoon of the bottom layer and mix with 100gm of water and 100gm of flour, and incubate at 30C/85F for 8-12 hours to form the starter sponge.
When the jar in the fridge is looking a bit empty make a double batch (200gm of flour and 200gm of water) and top the jar up with the surplus starter.

Edited by jackal10, 03 October 2005 - 10:10 AM.


#33 joesan

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Posted 03 October 2005 - 10:07 AM

Thanks Jack - that's crystal clear. I'm going to be doing this over the next couple of days to revitalise everything.

I appreciate your patience on this one!

#34 jsolomon

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Posted 12 October 2005 - 04:15 AM

I don't have a food processor. Would a blender provide a sufficient substitute for the food processor techniques?
I always attempt to have the ratio of my intelligence to weight ratio be greater than one. But, I am from the midwest. I am sure you can now understand my life's conundrum.

#35 jackal10

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Posted 12 October 2005 - 06:21 AM

Depends on the blender. A stand mixer on high speed might be better.
You need to get 11 watt/hours of work per Kg of dough.
So for a mixer with a typical 350 watt motor that is about 2-3 minutes on full speed.
A hand blenders are usually lower rated, typically only around 150 watts, unless an industrial version.

#36 Matthew Grant

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Posted 25 October 2005 - 04:56 AM

Jack, I used your method with some success. If I wanted to use this mixture to make a single round loaf what would sort of baking time would you recommend?
"Why would we want Children? What do they know about food?"

#37 jackal10

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Posted 10 November 2005 - 04:08 PM

I may be finally getting some understanding and beginning to be able to reliably turn out a decent baguette.

At Dan Lepard's suggestion I scaled back the water a bit, to around 67% hydration, and now have a much more managable dough.

For 1Kg dough

Starter
100g soft flour
100g water
30g clef (mother starter)
Ferment for 12 hours at 30C
The sponge is very well developed with lots of acidity and flavour

Dough
Al the starter sponge above
500g soft flour (9% protein)
300g water cold
12 g salt
5g Vitamin C


Whizz in a strong food processor for 2 mins.
Put into a lightly oiled basin, covered, in the fridge for 24-48 hours.
I believe there is lots of enzyme activity and slow fermentation

Shape, and put into a couche - about 4 hours at room temperature
Can retard after 2 hours.

Bake with lots of bottom heat. Steam for the first 30 seconds.

Posted Image Posted Image

Posted Image

My moulding still leaves something to be desired. However note the super-thin cell walls. You can only get this degree of development by using high intensity mixing.

#38 bethesdabakers

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Posted 12 November 2005 - 01:55 AM

Dear Jack,

I've been meaning to ask for a long time now why you insist on the importance of 30C for starter fermentation.

The accepted wisdom in sourdough baking is that fermentation takes longer at lower temperatures but still happens.

Is that too simple a position?

Best wishes,

Mick
Mick Hartley
The PArtisan Baker
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"I can give you more pep than that store bought yeast" - Evolution Mama (don't you make a monkey out of me)

#39 jackal10

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Posted 12 November 2005 - 03:19 AM

The science is here: http://forums.egulle...showtopic=27634

Sourdough is a complex system. The yeast, the lactobacillus and the underlying enzyme activity splitting the starch into sugars all have different rate changes with temperature. By changing temperature you are rather crudely selecting the composition of the culture.

Posted Image
(after Ganzle)

30C/86F gives optimum growth for the yeast, and near optimum for the lactobacillus. Its actually quite a narrow region for optimal peformance. A bit cooler and the growth of the lactobacillus slows and you get less flavoursome bread. Warmer and the yeast growth slows, and the bread doesn't rise as well or if fermented longer gets much sourer. The starter composition changes as well.

If you are culturing a new starter, keeping it at the optimum temperature for sourdough growth helps select the bugs you want.

Obviously you can culture and prove at different temperatures, but the bread will be... different.

Edited by jackal10, 12 November 2005 - 03:54 AM.


#40 bethesdabakers

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Posted 13 November 2005 - 03:03 AM

Dear Jack,

I'm sure this is a naive question - but if you don't ask you don't learn.

If 30C is the optimum temperature for yeast and lactobacilus activity (which I suppose means lift and flavour) why do we prove loaves at a lower temperature - sometimes even in the fridge?

Mick
Mick Hartley
The PArtisan Baker
bethesdabakers
"I can give you more pep than that store bought yeast" - Evolution Mama (don't you make a monkey out of me)

#41 jackal10

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Posted 13 November 2005 - 04:19 AM

Good question.
I'm not sure the science is well known, since very few commercial bakeries ferment cold. Artisan bakers just find that it works. As I said dough is a complex system.

My belief (and its only a belief, I would be interested in any research) is that what happens during cold fermentation is somewhat different, besides selecting for cold tolerant organisms. What I think is happening is that the enzyme activity is less affected by the cold, and so more fermentable sugars are being produced That means that when the dough warms up, either in a subsequent warm proof phase of during the first part of the bake the yeast can be much more active.
There is also another effect, mostly seen during retardation after the final proof. Here, besides the interior of the loaf continuing to ferment for a couple of hours while it cools down, I think the most important effect is the slight drying of the outside, leading to a different crust formation. The presence of fine bubbles on the crust after baking usually indicates retardation.

Edited by jackal10, 13 November 2005 - 04:24 AM.


#42 Tepee

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Posted 14 November 2005 - 12:11 AM

Followed Jack's latest formula, except I didn't have vitamin C, so I used (horror of horrors!) 5g bread improver. Not much spring, but good flavour.

Posted Image

I would like a thinner crust, though. How can I achieve that? Don't mist?

p/s My shaping and slashing is atrocious...so no loaf shots. :rolleyes:

Edited by Tepee, 14 November 2005 - 12:40 AM.

TPcal!
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#43 Desiderio

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Posted 17 September 2006 - 11:18 PM

Umm I hope the thread its still open, cause I wanted to ask a question if possible.
Flour question for the baguettes, do I use regular AP flour or a mix of AP and cake flour to obtain the 9% Jackal mentioned?

Thank you )
Vanessa

#44 jackal10

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Posted 17 September 2006 - 11:38 PM

Use regular AP

#45 Desiderio

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Posted 18 September 2006 - 12:46 AM

Thank you so much )
Vanessa





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