230 replies to this topic

[Chris Amirault]

Susan, re: the venison, I also was thinking about sage -- and of course juniper. I wonder if sage, juniper, cinnamon, nutmeg, and a touch of ancho for body would work.

Or:

Maybe you can make a simple ragu with venison and the aforementioned spices, bit of onion and tomato to bind it, and serve that with a stuffed cheese pasta using something a bit stronger than ricotta....

This is tricky!

[Smithy]

re: Venison. It is quite dry, so it will need something to counter this. Maybe 1/3 ground pork belly I would think.

Ground pork certainly helps with the lean-ness of the meat. Chunks of bacon could do the same thing, or a nice oily nut, which would also add a pleasant crunch to the stuffing.

Susan, re: the venison, I also was thinking about sage -- and of course juniper. I wonder if sage, juniper, cinnamon, nutmeg, and a touch of ancho for body would work.

Or:

Maybe you can make a simple ragu with venison and the aforementioned spices, bit of onion and tomato to bind it, and serve that with a stuffed cheese pasta using something a bit stronger than ricotta....

This is tricky!

I like the sound of the ancho with the cinnamon and nutmeg - that would be a nice, savory and spicy direction. That might even make the juniper palatable to me. Even though it's a popular combination, I've never much liked juniper with meat - except in the form of gin and tonic.

Edited to add: egg could be the binder, too. I've had pretty good luck with that; the egg in the stuffing cooks while the ravioli are simmering.

Edited by Smithy, 20 September 2005 - 12:23 PM.

[little ms foodie]

Thoughts on the next cook-off, folks? Here's the list I've been compiling from suggestions people have made; I've placed in bold the ones that I'm particularly interested in:
tapas (Spanish)
chili (Tex-Mex)
bibimbap (Korean)
carnitas, tamales (Mexican)
jerk (Carribean)
pho (Vietnamese)
crepes (French)
paella (Spanish)
sushi (Japanese)
barbeque (chopped) pork (you pick the state)
kasha varnishkes (Jewish)
kung pao chicken (Chinese-American?)
osso bucco (Italian)
potato pancakes (various)
sukiyaki (Japanese)
satay/kebabs (various)
preserves and canning
beans, beans, the musical fruit (just checking if you're reading the whole list)
whole fish
pancakes/waffles
omelettes
(cold) soups

New ideas? Support for those here?

Well with summer ending I would actually vote against the paella as it should really be done on an open flame and I don't have a gas stove (yet!) but that is just me..........

fall has me thinking of:

chili
carnitas/tamalas
osso bucco

stews
braising

[Chris Amirault]

Remember: it's only fall for those north of the equator, Wendy!

[CharityCase]

Remember: it's only fall for those north of the equator, Wendy!

I think pho would be a fun one but since you've just done a pasta maybe jerk chicken?

What about hot sauce or spice pastes? Many of us have tons of chillies being harvested now, and our indian eGulleters have them throughout the year.

[little ms foodie]

Remember: it's only fall for those north of the equator, Wendy!

danm other end of the world!!


yes of course, sorry all.......

ricotta gnocchi with red sauce, both out of Molto Italiano...

[Smithy]

Wendy, I want you to know you were the deciding factor in whether I'd keep that latest Mario book that had come to my house on spec. Take the credit or the blame, as you wish; my cookbook collection just got bigger.

Susan, have any of those venison ideas sounded good or sparked further ideas? Talk to us, woman! Now I've got mushrooms worked into the dish!

[snowangel]

Susan, have any of those venison ideas sounded good or sparked further ideas?  Talk to us, woman!  Now I've got mushrooms worked into the dish!

I'm still debating. Pasta is not in the cards this week because a heavy week of kid activities.

I'm leaning towards either of Chris's suggestions, but no juniper here, either!

And, I've only made pasta once, and with minimal success, so I'm wondering if a stuffed one is overly ambitious?

[Smithy]

...
And, I've only made pasta once, and with minimal success, so I'm wondering if a stuffed one is overly ambitious?

It depends on how discriminating your audience is. I started right in with the stuffed pasta, and am glad I did. However - after 3 attempts to get it right, with disappointment over the pasta dough every time, I've decided to take a step back and just try the noodles. If I can get the noodles to be not "doughy/chewy" (my take) or "soggy" (Russ' take) then I'll move back to stuffed pasta. It isn't hard to stuff the pasta. I think it's hard to get the pasta right. Meanwhile, dh is showing signs of test fatigue. It's easier, in my book, to make a small batch of pasta (next time it's a quarter batch) and make noodles than to go through all the stuffing making, pasta rolling, pasta stuffing, etc.

[daniellewiley]

Susan, have any of those venison ideas sounded good or sparked further ideas?  Talk to us, woman!  Now I've got mushrooms worked into the dish!

I'm still debating. Pasta is not in the cards this week because a heavy week of kid activities.

I'm leaning towards either of Chris's suggestions, but no juniper here, either!

And, I've only made pasta once, and with minimal success, so I'm wondering if a stuffed one is overly ambitious?

I have a mess of ground venison as well. Let us know what you do!
(I'm thinking stuffed cabbage, stuffed peppers or chili - I want something I can make in bulk and freeze)

Back on topic, I have my new pasta roller, but just haven't had the time! I am sooo looking forward to a weekend with nothing to do. Maybe in 18 years or so? I wonder if this thread will still be here...

[Smithy]

I have a mess of ground venison as well. Let us know what you do!
(I'm thinking stuffed cabbage, stuffed peppers or chili - I want something I can make in bulk and freeze)

I've had great success making stuffing for cabbage rolls with venison and freezing them for later. Take 'em from the freezer, pop 'em in the oven, and sometime later, with sauce - there's dinner! I have a mess of red bell peppers, and I think some of them are going to be stuffed and frozen for later.

Back on topic, I have my new pasta roller, but just haven't had the time! I am sooo looking forward to a weekend with nothing to do. Maybe in 18 years or so? I wonder if this thread will still be here...

Back on topic, just remember these immortal words:

Just a note to those of you who are coming to this cook-off later than others. Thanks to the internet, remember that you're never too late for an eGullet cook-off. While all have a specific starting time, none have a end time, and there are many of us eager to see what you will do with the cook-off recipes. So don't hesitate to contribute if you're finding this thread weeks or months after its start: your posting your own ideas, questions, or results can bump activity back up on this thread in no time!

[slkinsey]

Since this is a "stuffed pasta & gnocchi" cook off, I decided to combine both and make stuffed gnocchi. These are stuffed with a mixture of mushrooms and chicken livers cooked with a little tomato paste, smoked garlic, a touch of aged balsamic and a tiny grating of fresh nutmeg.

In the pan


On the plate


Looking inside

[MobyP]

A little known historical fact - the single reason Napolean's army never made it through the Russian winter and back to France was because they didn't have Sam in the mess tent.

That looks fantastic.

[Chufi]

Sam, those gnocchi are awesome.
They were, in fact, my inspiration to give the gnocchi-thing another try, after my gnocchi disaster upthread.

Today I decided to make the simplest gnocchi - just potato and flour. I realize that with something so simple, the choice of ingredients becomes really important. As for the potatoes: in Holland the potatoes you can buy range on a scale from 'kruimig' which, presumably, translates as 'floury'; to 'vastkokend' (firm in cooking) which, I presume, translates into 'waxy'. I bought potatoes that are supposed to be somewhere in between, but more on the floury side.
Simple all purpose flour.

Here's what they looked like before cooking. Pretty...


I used Marcella Hazan's recipe. She says to stop adding flour when the dough is firm but still slightly sticky. I had not used all the flour she specified, but the dough was firm & slightly sticky, so I thought that was ok.

Here's what they looked like after cooking and after tossing with the tomato sauce. They were extremely soft and fell apart during the tossing process. As you can see they almost melted together with the sauce:


While we were eating (yes, we did eat them ) I was thinking about it and thought: the only thing holding these things together is the flour. So maybe there just wasn't enough flour??

So after dinner I went back to the kitchen. I had some dough leftover. I just started adding more flour to it (a couple of tablespoons) until it was very firm and decidedly not sticky anymore.
Cooked them and tossed them in the little bit of sauce that was left over.

they looked like this:

They were much firmer. But when we tasted them, we both thought they were just a little bit too heavy.. too gluey.

So. I guess my question is: how on earth do you know how much flour to add to achieve light but firm gnocchi???

[MobyP]

That's the difficult part. Too much flour, and they get gummy. Overcook the potatoes and they get gummy. Pour in a bucket of gum and they get gummy. I'm telling you , it's just impossible.

[Chufi]

I'm telling you , it's just impossible.

well, that's not very reassuring. It would certainly mean that I can never make gnocchi for guests...
But how do other gnocchi-makers do it?

[MobyP]

You can actually make it up until you take them from the boiling water (and you should always boil them as close to when you made them as possible), oil them lightly, and place in the fridge until you're ready to reheat.

[Chufi]

that's not what I meant (about the preparing ahead)...
I meant that if you're not sure how they will turn out, either gummy or light and fluffy, I would not be confident serving them to guests.. what would I say.. "I spent the afternoon making gnocchi, chances are they taste like wallpaper glue, but, hey, enjoy your dinner everybody"?

Oh well. Maybe I'll just accept that, as much as I love to say the word gnocchi, ,making them is not in my genes.

[ellencho]

I made two types of tortellini last night.

One was your standard cheese tortellini



I served them in a jarred tomato sauce.


The second type I made was a tortellini stuffed with braised oxtail.


I removed the meat from the bones and then processed it without anything else.



I served them with the same jarred tomato sauce but I added a ladel-ful of the braising liquid to it to mellow it out a bit.


Normally with just the plain cheese ones I can scarf down an obscene amount of them, but since I had also served the meat ones, and since they were so rich we got full really fast.

[slkinsey]

that's not what I meant (about the preparing ahead)...
I meant that if you're not sure how they will turn out, either gummy or light and fluffy, I would not be confident serving them to guests.. what would I say.. "I spent the afternoon making gnocchi, chances are they taste like wallpaper glue, but, hey, enjoy your dinner everybody"?

Gnocchi really should be made as soon as possible before they are cooked. I wouldn't rest them uncooked more than an hour or two. Here's what I do: While you are making up your gnocchi dough, have a pot of water simmering on the stove. Make one gnocco and toss it in the water to cook. Take it out and taste it. Is it too soft? Add more flour. Is it hard and gummy? Start over or default to something else. Once you have made gnocchi a number of times, though, your skill and judgment will increase and you will gain confidence that it will turn out right every time. If you're worried about a gummy texture from overworking the potato, you can always do Jack Lang's retrogradation trick, which eliminates this concern. Especially if you are not doing Jack's trick, a potato ricer is absolutely de rigeur.

Thinking about potato gnocchi, I decided to make some for dinner last night.

I riced Yukon Gold potatoes directly onto a pastry cloth.

Sprinkled on flour and a small grating of nutmeg. I like using a pastry cloth, because it makes combining the ingredients easy with minimal manipulation of the dough (I didn't have time for Jack's trick tonight). I just pick up one side of the cloth, use the cloth to fold the dough in half, press firmly, repeat until dough holds together, adding a bit more flour as and if necessary.

Divide the dough and roll into "snakes." I find that it's much more efficient and easy to "snake" all the dough at once, rather than making one snake of completed gnocchi at a time.

Continuing the bulk production theme, all the snakes are cut into sections. This also makes it easy to make sure that all your gnocchi are the same size.

Flick each one off the back of a fork. In my opinion, the dents in the back side of the gnocchi are just as important to sauce adhesion (if not moreso) than the grooves on the front side.

Cooked and sauced with my favorite tomato sauce for gnocchi: San Marzano tomatoes, a halved onion and a good lump of butter started together in a cold pan and slowly brought up to temperature until the butter and tomato emulsify and the onion has given up its flavor.

[slkinsey]

Those oxtail ravioli look delicious, Ellen! For something really rich like that, I've often found that I like it best minimally sauced (perhaps just moistened with a little reduced braising liquid and butter) and with a lump of cold chevre on top. You take a bit of chevre with each tortellino, and the cool tartness of the cheese really cuts the warm richness of the meat.

[Chufi]

Here's what I do:  While you are making up your gnocchi dough, have a pot of water simmering on the stove.  Make one gnocco and toss it in the water to cook.  Take it out and taste it.  Is it too soft?  Add more flour.  Is it hard and gummy?  Start over or default to something else. 

that sounds like a very good idea.

2 other things I've learned from your post.
- I don't have a potato ricer (bows head in shame). I just mashed them. Took a long time to get them smooth. I guess that with a thing as simple as this, every detail does matter. I need to get a potato ricer...

- I did not know that overworking the dough would contribute to the gumminess. When I added flour for the second batch, (which ended up much firmer), I worked the dough for quite some time. Added to the time it took me to mash the potatoes to a smooth consistency, that's almost certainly one of the reasons that the end result wasn't as it should be.

I agree that practice seems to be the thing here. At least potatoes are cheap. I already warned my husband there's plenty of gnocchi in his future because I'm not giving up yet

[slkinsey]

Get a ricer and do Jack's retrogradation trick next time. I guarantee a substantial improvement.

[anzu]

Chufi,

in Joyce Goldstein's The Mediterranean Kitchen , she describes her long quest to find the secret for light gnocchi. Her final conclusion was that if you bake the potatoes rather than boiling them, they end up far lighter.

So maybe you should also try potatoes which are as floury as possible.

According to her recipe, bake the potatoes whole, cut in half and scoop out the insides while still hot, put the insides through a potato ricer, then add salt and as little flour as you can possibly use to hold it together. Also, she said, try making the gnocchi smaller.

I have to admit I haven't made this, but if you are experimenting then it's worth a try, right?

[ellencho]

Those oxtail ravioli look delicious, Ellen!  For something really rich like that, I've often found that I like it best minimally sauced (perhaps just moistened with a little reduced braising liquid and butter) and with a lump of cold chevre on top.  You take a bit of chevre with each tortellino, and the cool tartness of the cheese really cuts the warm richness of the meat.

You know, I was thinking of something along those lines, but I used the tomato sauce in the hopes that its acidity would cut the richness of the meat. But now that I think of it, I bet they would taste really good in an oxtail broth as part of a soup rather than in a tomato sauce as a sauced pasta dish.

[slkinsey]

. . . now that I think of it, I bet [oxtail ravioli] would taste really good in an oxtail broth as part of a soup rather than in a tomato sauce as a sauced pasta dish.

Certainly. Tortellini in brodo is very traditional. I'm not big on tortellini in soup that has many other ingredients floating around, but tortellini in a clear broth is one of the best ways to appreciate them.

[cjsadler]

Chufi,

in Joyce Goldstein's The Mediterranean Kitchen , she describes her long quest to find the secret for light gnocchi. Her final conclusion was that if you bake the potatoes rather than boiling them, they end up far lighter.

So maybe you should also try potatoes which are as floury as possible.

According to her recipe, bake the potatoes whole, cut in half and scoop out the insides while still hot, put the insides through a potato ricer, then add salt and as little flour as you can possibly use to hold it together. Also, she said, try making the gnocchi smaller.

I have to admit I haven't made this, but if you are experimenting then it's worth a try, right?

I forget which chef I read does this, but taking the baking idea one step further, put the riced potatoes on a sheet pan and put them back in the oven at a low temp to dry out even more. Another little trick that makes the gnocchi even lighter.

[Anna N]

Never imagined I would be anything but any onlooker to this thread but on the weekend I picked up a manual pasta machine at a garage sale for $4. Had to try my new toy! These are shrimp stuffed ravioli with a lime ginger sauce. They were very good for a first try. Must be beginner's luck!



The stuffed ravioli.



The cooked ravioli with sauce.



A (blurry) look inside.

[slkinsey]

You know, I've tried these various tricks to make gnocchi lighter. . . baking the potatoes, etc. But ultimately I've never seen any reason to go away from my usual practice of boiling sliced potatoes in water and allowing them to dry in the colander for a few minutes. I don't use eggs in my potato gnocchi, so perhaps I've never needed to take extreme measures for drying (presumably these techniques are used so that less flour is required to bind the dough). But I also feel that it is possible to go too light. If you don't use enough flour, you end up with little lumps of mashed potato that don't have enough integrity to stand up as dumplings.

[Chufi]

Those ravioli look lovely Anna N! was that really your first stuffed pasta ever.. they look great
I really like the idea of the lime/ginger sauce, doesn't sound very Italian, but why not be creative with the flavors sometimes..