187 replies to this topic

[MHesse]

We stopped for lunch at Katz's today after a hard morning of lamp shopping on the Bowery. Got there around 2pm. Place was PACKED, many first timers including my wife. We split a pastrami on rye and a matzoh ball soup. She found a table while I worked my way to the counter. Got served just after the table was found. Pastrami was very juicy, but a little on the fatty side (I didn't want to order lean). Wife said soup was the best MB soup she's had; sandwich was very good, but I need to go back again and see if it could be better. Rye bread of course completely insufficientto contain sandwich. Lots of people ordered on club roll; good idea. The mass of humanity in the place took a little away from the experience. Will go off hours if possible next time. Was thirsty the rest rest of the day.

[Pan]

If you want to pick your pastrami, go up to the counter. The counterman will give you some to try, and if you aren't satisfied, ask him to replace it with another one that's juicier, leaner, of more consistent texture, or whatever. Tip the counterman, then sit in the self-service section.

And why were you thirsty? Didn't you get anything to drink with your pastrami?

[jogoode]

Rye bread of course completely insufficientto contain sandwich. Lots of people ordered on club roll; good idea.

A club roll is sacrilege!

Order it on rye. Ask for extra bread. One sandwich becomes two.

BTW, I think 2nd Ave Deli has better rye bread.

I like a soda with my pastrami. Root beer, or a Pepsi. Lots of ice. One of the few times I drink soda. With pastrami and brick-oven pizza.

[wesza]

Whenever I used to go to Katz's for a Snack?

I followed the custom learned from my Father-in-Law who owned a business on Eldridge Street.

They generally ordered a Pastrami on Rye and a side order of Chopped Liver that always came with Sliced Rye Bread.

This was reassembled at the table into several combination sandwiches of Pastrami and Chopped Liver.

During the week at lunchtime it wasn't unusual to see this being put together on more then a few tables.

The other sides that seemed popular were Coleslaw, Potato Salad or French Fries.

The Coles Law or Potato Salad were often also incorperated into the Sandwiches the French Fries were a inbdulgence with ketchup for big eaters.

A lot of these guys shared regular tables at lunch for years, something like a lunch at Katz's Club.

Irwin

[Pan]

Lunch at Katz's sounds good to me, but a snack?!!!!!

[Felonius]

I've been to both Katz's and Carnegie Deli a few times and thoroughly enjoyed both pastrami sandwiches. Certainly better than any pastrami I've had outside NYC. My impression was that Katz served a hotter and somewhat jucier sandwich.

This thread has me intrigued. Tipping the meat slicer guy? Sampling slices for approval? I had no idea this was part of the routine.

So help me out NYC pastrami experts (and there seem to be quite a few on this thread). What does a clueless Southern gentile like me need to know in order to obtain a proper pastrami sandwich in NYC? Is there a certain ritual akin to what Fat Guy so expertly described in his opus on ordering at a sushi bar?

I seem to remember trying to order a "Reuben" sandwich one day at 2nd Ave Deli and being given a very strange look by the waiter. My dining companion explained to me that I had just ordered a non-Kosher item in a Kosher deli. So clearly I need all the help I can get on this topic.

Edited by Felonius, 21 December 2003 - 12:55 AM.

[Pan]

Felonious, all you really have to do is ask for a pastrami on rye. Like I said, the counter guy will give you a couple of little slices to try. If you like them, tell him, and he'll make a sandwich with them. If you find them wanting, tell him, and he'll get another big slab out of the steamer and give you a sample of that one, too. Of course, if you know you want one that's juicy or one that's lean, tell that to the counter guy right away. Once he's done, tip him at least a dollar, and at least two if you rejected the first sample. And don't forget your ticket! If you lose the ticket you get at Katz's on entry, you'll be charged $50!

If you're not really, really hungry and don't think you could finish a whole pastrami sandwich, you can get a half sandwich with or without a bowl of soup (matzo ball or split pea - both good).

If you want cole slaw or some other side dish or soda, go to the far end of the counter to order that. The soups are at the side nearest to the window.

Anything else you wanna know?

[wesza]

Lunch at Katz's sounds good to me, but a snack?!!!!!

Michael: That was a mid afternoon Snack for my wife and my self.

Believe it ? For Lunch in those days I'd scraff: Bowl Matzoh Ball Soup, Pastrami Sandwich, Slice Garlic Wurst , Knish and bottles of Dr Browns Celery and Cream Soda.

Someday i'll tell you how my eating habits wound up after about 50 years full time.

Irwin

[rozrapp]

I seem to remember trying to order a "Reuben" sandwich one day at 2nd Ave Deli and being given a very strange look by the waiter.  My dining companion explained to me that I had just ordered a non-Kosher item in a Kosher deli.  So clearly I need all the help I can get on this topic.

Felonius, There is nothing inherently non-kosher about the individual items in a Reuben. However, kosher rules dictate that dairy and meat not be mixed. Therefore, a Reuben, which includes corned beef and cheese, cannot be served in a kosher deli. In fact, there are no dairy products of any kind in a kosher deli. Unlike the 2nd Ave. Deli, Carnegie and Katz's are not kosher. So, they can offer a Reuben. Whether or not they do is another question.

[MHesse]

If you want to pick your pastrami, go up to the counter. The counterman will give you some to try, and if you aren't satisfied, ask him to replace it with another one that's juicier, leaner, of more consistent texture, or whatever. Tip the counterman, then sit in the self-service section.

And why were you thirsty? Didn't you get anything to drink with your pastrami?

I did get my sandwich at the counter. I tipped a dollar as I gave my order. I liked the sample slices he gave me. The sandwich had more fatty slices than the sample. I'm not really complaining; I liked the sandwich and I've read here that some fat is better than all lean, though I'm not sure I agree with that now. I asked the counterman to also get me my soup and a cel-ray. He did, while explaining that his job is just to make sandwiches. Another dollar tip. Having to go to the counter three times: sandwich, soup, soda yesterday in that crowd would have been worse than getting a DVD on sale at Walmart.

One half a cel-ray was not enough to cure my thirst. I will asked for extra bread next time. Yesterday I was so happy to have reached the counterman with only 15 minutes waiting and then not having the tray knocked over by the crowd behind me, I considered that a victory.

We did sit in self serve. My wife found two seats after about ten minutes. Solo, I would have had a cold lunch by the time a seat opened up.

Still, a NY experience. Funny, I don't enjoy NY experiences as much as I used to.

[John]

I seem to remember trying to order a "Reuben" sandwich one day at 2nd Ave Deli and being given a very strange look by the waiter.  My dining companion explained to me that I had just ordered a non-Kosher item in a Kosher deli.  So clearly I need all the help I can get on this topic.

Felonius, There is nothing inherently non-kosher about the individual items in a Reuben. However, kosher rules dictate that dairy and meat not be mixed. Therefore, a Reuben, which includes corned beef and cheese, cannot be served in a kosher deli. In fact, there are no dairy products of any kind in a kosher deli. Unlike the 2nd Ave. Deli, Carnegie and Katz's are not kosher. So, they can offer a Reuben. Whether or not they do is another question.

Roz,
The Deli King in Clark is on my mail route. They are a kosher deli and will not mix meat and dairy like you said, but will put the cheese on the side or on another plate so that you can have a reuben. I haven't asked them yet, but I just realized that they are open on Saturdays. Isn't this also a violation of Kosher law?

[rozrapp]

Roz,
      The Deli King in Clark is on my mail route. They are a kosher deli and will not mix meat and dairy like you said, but will put the cheese on the side or on another plate so that you can have a reuben. I haven't asked them yet, but I just realized that they are open on Saturdays. Isn't this also a violation of Kosher law?

John, A distinction has to be made between a kosher deli that has been certified as being "strictly kosher," and a deli that serves kosher products but has not been so certified. The former would never serve any dairy products, while the latter can, if they so choose. Therefore, your Deli King appears to fall into the latter category. As for the Saturday issue, there is a category of kosher delis called glatt kosher. They are usually owned by very observant Jews and are not open on Saturday. In the case of "regular" (non-glatt) kosher delis, if the owners are not particularly observant, they tend to be open. However, all kosher delis close during the entire 8 days of Passover, since many deli products -- and bread, of course -- are verboten during Passover. So, have I now thorougly confused you?

[John]

Yeah, now I am confused. I've seen advertisements for the Deli King where they claim to be certified kosher, even having the name of the Rabbi whose supervision they are under. Yet they're open on Saturday. I think I'll just ask them when I'm in there again.

[wesza]

Yeah, now I am confused. I've seen advertisements for the Deli King where they claim to be certified kosher, even having the name of the Rabbi whose supervision they are under. Yet they're open on Saturday. I think I'll just ask them when I'm in there again.

All it takes is two Magical words if i'm not mistaken.

"SHABOS GOY".

Irwin

[bloviatrix]

As for the Saturday issue, there is a category of kosher delis called glatt kosher.  They are usually owned by very observant Jews and are not open on Saturday.  In the case of "regular" (non-glatt) kosher delis, if the owners are not particularly observant, they tend to be open.

I hate to be a crank, but I feel a need to clear up a common misconception but Glatt has nothing to do with how observant the owner of a shop is.

Per Rabbi Ari Zivotofsky:

Glatt is Yiddish for smooth, and in the context of kashrut it means that the lungs of the animal were smooth, without any adhesions that could potentially prohibit the animal as a treifa, an issue only applicable to animals, not fowl or non-meat products.

What he's is saying that there's a higher level of scrutiny used in determining whether an animal's lungs meet the requirements for kashrut. (In simplest terms, in order for meat to be kosher, the animal must 1) slaughtered in a certain way 2) have it's internal organs inspected to make sure they meet certain requirements 3)the meat must then be salted and soaked in order to draw the blood out.)

As to whether a restaurant is open on the sabbath, that's dependent on what type of rabbinic supervision they have.

[Fat Guy]

As far as I can remember, I've never rejected a pastrami sample at Katz's. Also, I've noticed over the past few years that the sampling process has become routinized and is no longer truly an approval process unless you assert yourself. In other words, they start to make your sandwich and they give you a couple of slices while they're at it.

In days of yore, I always opted for waiter service at Katz's. In the 1980s and early 1990s, it seemed to me that the majority of serious fressers were in the waiter-service section, although some old-timers insisted on counter service. Then all the good Jewish waiters disappeared -- seemingly at the same time -- sometime in the mid 1990s. So I switched to counter service. But over the past year or so I've gravitated back towards waiter service. The servers seem to be better now than they were at their all-time low in the '90s; one woman even seems to be a deli veteran. You don't have to wait as long, you don't have to schlep, and as far as I can tell the guys behind the counter try to perform well for the waiters. You can still specify your pastrami (extra fatty, extra lean, etc.) and they still listen. So I think I'm off the counter for awhile.

[Fat Guy]

Bloviatrix: yes and no. While the term glatt has a technical meaning, about which you are correct, the phrase "glatt kosher" is also widely used in common language to refer to the overall level of kashruth at an establishment and not just the way the animals' lungs have been inspected. A "glatt kosher" establishment will, in my experience, always be under strict orthodox supervision and will always be shomer shabbat.

[menton1]

Yeah, now I am confused. I've seen advertisements for the Deli King where they claim to be certified kosher, even having the name of the Rabbi whose supervision they are under. Yet they're open on Saturday. I think I'll just ask them when I'm in there again.

My orthodox friends have always advised me that this is really "Kosher Style". In other words, the food would be meat/dairy separated, and the meat would come from a kosher source. But observant Jews would never patronize the place.

[Pan]

As far as I can remember, I've never rejected a pastrami sample at Katz's.

That surprises me somewhat. I reject samples on occasion, though usually not. The last time I rejected a sample, it was too gristly.

[bloviatrix]

Bloviatrix: yes and no. While the term glatt has a technical meaning, about which you are correct, the phrase "glatt kosher" is also widely used in common language to refer to the overall level of kashruth at an establishment and not just the way the animals' lungs have been inspected. A "glatt kosher" establishment will, in my experience, always be under strict orthodox supervision and will always be shomer shabbat.

FG, the joke in the orthodox community is that most places that tout themselves as Glatt Kosher are open on saturday - travel down Union Turnpike or Queens Blvd. and you'll see what I'm talking about. It's passively understood that if a place is under orthodox supervision, the meat will be glatt. That's why I felt a need to explain what Glatt truly is.

There are a limited number of kosher meat processors in the US, and across the board they use orthodox shechita and the meat is glatt. Hence, even a place that it open in the sabbath will sell glatt meat. What they do to the meat, once they get hold of it, I can't comment on.

[Fat Guy]

FG, the joke in the orthodox community is that most places that tout themselves as Glatt Kosher are open on saturday - travel down Union Turnpike or Queens Blvd. and you'll see what I'm talking about.

Interesting. That has not been my experience in Manhattan with places calling themselves "glatt kosher." I'm not aware of any places that use that designation but are not shomer shabbat. For example, Prime Grill goes by "Prime Grill Glatt Kosher Steakhouse and Sushi" and is closed on shabbat. Tevere 84 makes the same claim and is shomer shabbat. Maybe there are counter-examples, I don't know.

[jordyny]

A store that is open on the Sabbath can sell glatt kosher meat. The meat will still be just as kosher.
What to me is very misleading about delis is that sometimes they say they are kosher style but not really kosher.
A restaurant that serves Glatt Kosher prepared food must be closed on sabbath. Simply for the fact that Glatt meat(all kosher meat) has to be slaughter by a Jew but glatt has to have closer supervision. Also the food is only kosher if a jew turns ont he oven. I think I am right.
I went to a really religous yeshiva high school and we learned the talmud that discusses just matters like this.

[Pan]

Am I the only person who thinks the marketing term "kosher style" is nonsense because food is either kosher or treif? Would kosher beef bacon be called "treif style"?

[Fat Guy]

Great idea. We should open a "treyf style" restaurant.

[Fat Guy]

Most orthodox Jews I know don't accept the certification of Hebrew National on the basis that it is not "up to community standards" in terms of the rigor of its supervision. Some have cited the acquisition of Hebrew National by ConAgra as the point at which they felt supervision risked becoming too lenient. This may very well be an issue of perception only: I haven't heard any actual proof that Hebrew National is cheating or being too lenient, and such proof may not exist. Some also find Hebrew National's advertising to be objectionable.

[Fat Guy]

Hi, is this the Katz's pastrami thread?

Let's cease the kashruth discussion on this thread before Sam Kinsey figures out what's going on and throws us all in jail for veering too far off topic.

Two things: 1) I've made contact with some rabbinical organizations in the hopes of drumming up an authoritative guest for a kashruth Q&A; and 2) You all are welcome to start a new thread for discussion of kashruth, but please don't post anymore about it here.

[VivreManger]

To get us back on track. Last week I was in LA and managed half a pastrami at Langer's. I would have ordered the whole sandwich, but I had been to Roscoe's Chicken & Waffles for breakfast and that cramped my style, among other parts of my body.

Unfortunately my Katz's experience is decades old so that basis of comparison is denied me. However I will be in NY next month and hope to get downtown to try a pastrami sandwich. My more recent basis of comparison is Montreal smoked meat, with samples from Schwartz's, Snowdon Del and the Main.

Langer's is much less spicy and tangy than Montreal meat, hardly a surprise. It was also noticably more tender. The overall taste was excellent. The meat was flavorful and moist.

As you know Langer's does not have counter service, but I was able to make my preference for medium fatty, not Hollywood lean, made know through the waitress and the sandwich arrived as ordered.

Some claim that Langer's is the best in North America. I would not go there, but the rye bread is good -- better than the standard issue in Montreal. The mustard choices are better.

The ideal sandwich would be Montreal smoked meat spiciness with Langer's tender juiciness and superior accompaniments. On the other hand, the pickles are better in Montreal.

Next month, Katz's, God willing. In March I am contemplating a smoked meat March madness marathon -- hitting all the major purveyors for a taste-out on and off the Main (Montreal talk for St. Lawrence). Anybody else interested?

[greenfield]

However I will be in NY next month and hope to get downtown to try a pastrami sandwich.

Personally, I would pick 2nd Avenue Deli over Katz's anyday. I think 2nd Avenue Deli has much better consistency, better table service, and a friendlier atmosphere. If you just want to run in and grab a quick sandwich to go, then Katz's is probably the fast choice. If you want better pastrami or corned beef, I think 2nd Avenue Deli is the best. And if you have to run, you can always call ahead an order anyway.

Plus, 2nd Avenue Deli has great tongue. :-)

[menton1]

There is a certain "je ne sais quoi" about Katz' pastami because it is hand sliced. I don't know why it is, but that hand slicing gives a flavor and texture that can't be matched with machine slicing.

[greenfield]

There is a certain "je ne sais quoi" about Katz' pastami because it is hand sliced. I don't know why it is, but that hand slicing gives a flavor and texture that can't be matched with machine slicing.

I thought that the 2nd avenue deli had hand sliced pastrami and corned beef as well. Does anyone know one way or another?