187 replies to this topic

[jaybee]

The above josh made me think that I did not enjoy my last Katz' pastrami sandwich very much. I ordered a half and half--brisket one side, pastrami the other. The pastrami was too greasy, fatty and salty to my taste. I used to inhale the stuff. The brisket was better, but lately I prefer Arties brisket sandwich. (One of the few thngs they do really well). So I wonder, have my tastes changed or has Katz?

[Steve Plotnicki]

I had dinner there on Thursday night after the Almodovar movie and my sandwich was great. Jaybee, next time I'll call ahead for you. Or just tell them to let the chef prepare it any way he wants .

Edited by Steve Plotnicki, 04 January 2003 - 09:10 AM.

[Suzanne F]

Jaybee, your experience is 180º from ours on New Year's Day. The pastrami was very lean (without our asking), tender, moist, and mildly flavored. In fact, the only problem was that it was a little TOO mildly flavored -- could have used more spice etc. We were quite surprised that it was both lean and moist (probably from the steam, but that was ok).

None of that answers your question about which has changed, though. And we can't go back for another 6 months to check. So maybe a different eGulleteer will have to go each week and report on the state of the pastrami.

Edited by Suzanne F, 04 January 2003 - 08:53 AM.

[Sandra Levine]

It's clear that Katz's is inconsistent.

[Suzanne F]

Well, obviously. But are they more often good or bad? Or should we just look elsewhere for our deli fix? (We generally prefer Carnegie Deli for pastrami, anyway.)

[Sandra Levine]

Traditionally, Katz's has been my favorite place for pastrami, over the years. And I mean years. I've been going there since I was a little girl. I've been complaining about the bread for some time. The last fabulous pastrami I had there was three years ago. Since then, it has been either too dry, too bland or gristly. One of the things I've always liked about Katz's was the variation -- when it varied from good to superlative. Lately, however, the variation has been from okay to very good. This is a sign of serious decline. I hope the owners will decide to take the legacy they hold to heart rather than allowing this incomparable NY institution to slide into oblivion, riding on its reputation.

Ranitidine, it should be noted, disagrees with me and still rates Katz's two capsules.

[Fat Guy]

It's clear that Katz's is inconsistent.

Indeed, it's meat. It's going to be inconsistent no matter what. This is the case at Peter Luger, or with the finest Kobe beef, or lobster, or anything natural. I think you're right that the range of quality has shifted a bit. But to me it's now sometimes just as excellent as I always remember, and the problem is that it sometimes dips lower in quality than it ever did. (Which is not all that low). That being said, I'm not sure how anybody could think that Carnegie or Artie's competes with Katz's pastrami or brisket ever. I mean, both have good stuff, but it's not in quite the same category and of course the machine-slicing issue trumps all.

I wonder, in seeking to explain this, has the brisket supply itself suffered, much as the rest of the meat supply has -- for everyone?

[Sandra Levine]

and of course the machine-slicing issue trumps all.

Quite right.

[Fat Guy]

and of course the machine-slicing issue trumps all.

Quite right.

I guess I should add "unless the pastrami sucks to begin with." I mean, the most important thing is good pastrami. But after that, hand-slicing gives such a huge bump up in my rating system (whatever that is) that among meats anywhere in the good to great range the hand-sliced example goes to the head of the class.

[Stone]

FG -- I know you're all hot about hand-slicing, but if they set the machine to slice thicker, wouldn't that do the trick? I agree that thicker slices offer better texture. But other than that, what's the deal? (This is probably discussed elsewhere, but I couldn't find it.)

[Sandra Levine]

I don't know why, but it just doesn't work. Maybe the irregularlity of hand-slicing means that each piece is a little different in texture, adding to the complexity of the sandwich. Machine slicing, by its nature, imparts a mechanical sameness to each slice (and may press out more juice.) Should I go out on a limb and say that the hand-slicing is artisinal and the machine slicing is commercial?

[macrosan]

FG --  I know you're all hot about hand-slicing, but if they set the machine to slice thicker, wouldn't that do the trick?

Ever so many years ago, I used to work every Sunday at a deli. We had an electric meat slicer, and knives. Whenever people asked for sliced meat, we would ask "Machine or hand sliced?". The only time I remember anyone asking for machine was a very smart lady (a regular) who said "Machine sliced, and very thin. It's only for some guests we have coming over".

Machine slicing imparts a smooth, hard, sometimes shiny texture to the surface of the meat. I guess that's because of the speed of the rotating blade. Hand slicing just never does that. A real expert can cut meat wafer thin, but it still has much better texture than from a machine.

[VivreManger]

Important ADDITION

In every instance where I mentioned smoked meat, the product in question is called OLD-FASHIONED.

The other stuff should never have been made.

Almost any NY deli meat could beat the pants out of NON old-fashioned smoked meat, so if that was the product compared, NY wins all the time -- only slight exaggeration.

Edited by VivreManger, 05 January 2003 - 06:56 AM.

[Steve Plotnicki]

Katz's is usually excellent but I think a lot of that comes from the meat bering very hot when they serve it. And hand slicing, which really means thick slices, retain their heat longer then thin, machine cut pastrami. But I think neither place, Katz's or Schwartz's compares to either the original Pastrami King, or the Roumanian Pastrami at Bernstein;'s on Essex.

[jaybee]

Possibly I got a less than good batch of pastrami, but there is the possibility that I have lost my taste for the stuff. It happens. In the interests of pure research, I'll just have to make my way back to Katz and conduct a follow up experiment. At lunch on a weekday. Maybe we can walk over to Bernstein's on Essex and do a comparison. I've got a can of 1961 Dr. Brown's Cel-Ray in my cellar for the occasion. Who would like to be my lab assistant?

Edited by jaybee, 05 January 2003 - 04:22 PM.

[Steve Plotnicki]

Pastrami Queen isn't any good and neither is the pastrami at Artie's. By the way, Schmulke Bernstein offered two versions of pastrami. Roumanian pastrami and another version that was just identified as pastrami. The non Roumanian pastrami was similar to what you would find in kosher delis all over the city. But the Roumanian pastrami, oy was that good. I am not sure what recipe Arte's bought at auction but I can tell you that they do not sell the Bernstein Roumanian pastrami there.

The funny schizo thing about Bernstein's was that in addition to the kosher deli they served, they had an entire menu of kosher Chinese food. And it was served by Chinese waiters wearing yamulkes! Now where did they get them? Did you ever go to one of those Chinese Cuban joints with the schizo half Chinese half Cuban menu? Well this was half kosher deli and half Chinese. I always heard the Chinese Cuban places came about because they imported workers from China to build the railroads in Cuba. I wonder if the same thing happened here. Maybe they brought people from China to build the Minsk-Bialystock line and that was the genesis of kosher Chinese cuisine? Save to say, there is nothing worse tasting then kosher Chinese food. Veal spare ribs instead of pork and gloopy chow mein loaded with corn starch. The whole thing could make you brech.

[SteveW]

The people here who have enjoyed excellent Katz's Pastrami in earlier times, & find it inferior nowadays(or at least inconsistent from one batch to another). Has the thought occur, that if they get a bad Katz's Pastrami sandwich, after taking a bite, just return it back to the server & not accept it. Ask them for another one! And these pastrami sandwiches are monsters in size. It's criminal that they don't offer smaller portions.

--------------
Steve

Edited by SteveW, 05 January 2003 - 09:13 PM.

[jaybee]

Has the thought occur, that if they get a bad Katz's Pastrami sandwich, after taking a bite, just return it back to the server & not accept it.

Steve, the pastrami tasted a lot like it always did, except I didn't like it as much. The pieces I got were too fatty, so I should have asked for "lean." But I'm not so sure it was them. It could have been me. Next time I will ask for lean and get 1/2 a sandwich.

[Kenk]

The variation in quality of a pastrami (or smoked meat) can indicate simply that it is a natural product. These days the fat content in beef can be so low as to render an ordinarily prime cut of meat into something that will tast like crap and be dry no matter how you cook it. Brisket which is normally a though cut of beef thus will feel this the most.

Variation of fat content will make the brisket feel too dry at times alright at other times. The variation of fat content will also negatively affect the cooking time. Less fat will make the meat more vulnerable to overcooking leading to dry stringy meat.
It is easy to find more consistancy in mass produced chemically balanced water pumped pastrami. This stuff will consistantly taste blah.

The last industrial smoked meat, in my case, I tried had the consistancy of a cellulose sponge. It was very scary.

Hand slicing pastrami (or smoked meat) is the only way a restaurant should serve it.
Always expect to get a dry sandwich if you order it lean.

[Steve Plotnicki]

I am not understanding this not get a good sandwich at Katz's issue. As opposed to Blue Hill where you let the chefs decide what you are going to eat for dinner, Katz's has to be managed throughout the entire ordering process. When I was there last Thursday, I did my typical schtick and took out a few singles for the slicer to see when I ordered. He had a piece of pastrami in front of him, he trimmed it a little and cut me a few slices which he put on a plate on the counter in front of me. I tasted them and I rejected them as not warm enough or juicy enough for me. So he got a new pastrami from the steamer drawer, trimmed it and went through the same ceremony. This one wasn't perfect, but it was very good and it passed muster (I should say mustard) so I accepted it. But I would have had no problem rejecting 2-3 until they got it right. So I don't see why anybody shouldn't get a good sandwich there? Especially since the situation is so manageable.

[Fat Guy]

Once told to me by a waiter at Katz's:

"A few months ago, we got a new pickle slicer. Now, we used to have this guy Lenny, he worked behind the counter. Lenny goes to the boss one day and says: 'Hey, boss, I got a problem. I got this irresistible urge to stick my schlong [Yiddish slang for penis] in the pickle slicer.' The boss says: 'Lenny don't do it. I'm sending you to a shrink.'"

"So Lenny sees this shrink and tells about the problem and the shrink listens and they talk and the shrink says at the end: 'Lenny, you got problems. We gotta work on this. Whatever you do, before the next time you see me, don't stick your thing in the pickle slicer, OK?'"

"Lenny goes back the next week to the shrink and says: 'Doc, I couldn't help myself. I did it. I stuck my schlong in the pickle slicer.' The shrink says: 'So what happened?' Lenny says: 'I got fired.'"

"'Yeah,' says the shrink, 'but what about the pickle slicer?'"

"'Oh, she got fired too."

[Fat Guy]

Then there was the time the lady asked the counterman if the tongue was good and he said, "It speaks for itself . . ."

[La Niña]

Had lunch at Katz's. Wonderful pastrami, but disgusting, and I mean disgusting, tongue. So salty it was inedible. And a gross, over-offal-y aftertaste. Yuck.

[SteveW]

Just finished watching the 'Sandwiches that you will like' PBS documentary. Katz's deli was one of the featured sandwich places. The Katz's pastrami brisket, to my eye looks noticeably different from Montreal smoked meat.

According to the Katz's person, the key when ordering pastrami there, is to tell the counter person have it 'juicy.' Definitely don't order it lean or extra lean. One of the Katz's customers mentioned that when he was young, they were around 500 Jewish delis in Manhattan, now they're only around a dozen. Wow! interesting fact.

---------------
Steve

Edited by SteveW, 08 January 2003 - 07:51 PM.

[jaybee]

One of the Katz's customers mentioned that when he was young, they were around 500 Jewish delis in Manhattan, now they're only around a dozen. Wow! interesting fact.

That is true. In a ten block radius of my apartment house, there were no fewer than ten legit Jewish delisin 1965. Today there are none. Atie's and Fine & Shapiro's are retro creations. Only Barney Greengrass remains from that era.

But there are probably twenty glatt kosher restaurants today when five years ago there was maybe one.

Edited by jaybee, 08 January 2003 - 08:44 PM.

[jaybee]

I'm not sure what you mean when you say that Fine & Shapiro is a retro creation. I remember eating there in the late '60s.

I believe the Russian owners have no connection to the original F&S. They bought the name and the store. In fact, I think they are the second generation of ownership from the originators.

[weinoo]

I think part of the problem with Katz's isn't so much the quality of the meats, but the quality of the people slicing it...my last pastrami sandwich there (and it will be my last) had meat sliced so thickly that it could barely be eaten. I'll take the 2nd Ave Deli's sandwiches over Katz's any day.

Real belly lox is available as well at Sable's, on 2nd Ave. between 77 & 78. Wouldn't it be great to be able to get a real bagel as well?!

[porkpa]

I went to Katz's on Sunday afternoon at about 2.30. The place was packed. If you are one person how do you arrange to get a seat? I got lucky and a small table was vacating when I had my food. Otherwise I guess you stand around looking silly. I cleared the remaining debris myself and sat down and ate amongst the surrounding chaos. Next time, if the place is full, I'll just take the food out.
I had half a pastrami and half a beef brisket sandwich. The pastrami was excellent - tasty, slightly on the fat side, well spiced and delicious. The brisket was not bad, but not really good either. Bland and somewhat tasteless. Second Avenue's brisket is much better, but Katz's pastrami prevails. The young meat slicer, was polite well presented and did his job well. For ambience, user friendliness and especially cleanliness Second Avenue stands out. I'm not sure on the price differential, if in fact there is one.
Porkpa

[Bobaloo]

As an ex–deli pro with nine year's experience in the Chicago area, I must chime in on this topic. For me, a visit to a new deli requires ordering pastrami. It is the substance that defines the place. Unfortunately, there is only one place in our metro area that serves good pastrami, Max & Benny's in Northbrook, which fortunately is a 25 mile schlep for me.

My wife is from New York, so we get to visit pretty often. Here is my take on the question. NY (and Montreal) pastrami is made from brisket. It usually is made without the "point" or "deckel", the fatty tissue that sits on top of the brisket flat. Chicago pastrami is usually made from the plate, the area on the front of the abdomen, which is fattier. Nobody in Chicago cures their own meats anymore; they all use vacuum-packed stuff from Vienna, Hebrew National (not plate), Best's Kosher, etc. At one point in 1976, we actually tried using Schneider's from Canada, which didn't go over very well with anybody.

I think that the extra fat in the Chicago version enables a more consistent product, even though always machine sliced thin. I think that New York pastrami, when fatty/juicy enough, will outshine anything in the world. But after dozens of meals at Carnegie, 2nd Avenue, Stage, Ben's, Katz's and others, way too often (even when asking for "not lean"), the tendency (with the exception of Carnegie, which was dripping with fat...eeecchhh) is for NY product to be too lean/dry, but still tasty.

My wife's grandmother, from Romania, always ordered her pastrami "cold and fat". She made it to 90 before she developed a blockage!

[VivreManger]

Bobaloo,

Welcome to the club. If it interests you you might take a look at the various Montreal Smoked Meat threads which spun off the Katz's discussion. I would be curious if you have information about what precisely distinguishes NY pastrami from Montreal smoked meat. The latter is usually tougher and must be sliced very thin. What would cause the greater toughness? You are right that the whole Montreal brisket lacks the fatty covering, but it does usually have a fatty tip. If you can't find the discussions, I can PM you with the references and main points.