403 replies to this topic

[Toufas]

That wouldnt't be a problem, as I have sous vide equipment. Any recipes or ideas based on that? It doesn't need to be shoulder, but I would prefer a cheap cut of meat.

[Mjx]

There's the Sous Vide Pork Shoulder topic.

[Toufas]

yes, but after that? How do i make it into a terrine? Chop up the meat and use some concentrated stock or fat to bind it?

[Mjx]

One of the terrine queens or kings in this thread is going to have better suggestions than I probably would (I'd be inclined to dice the cooked pork, and re:stock, veal stock would proably be a good idea, nice and gelatinous, and goes well with pork; or, you could add a little gelatine, if veal stock was out of the question; you could do somthing xtremely attractive with the celery leaves, or you might look into lovage, too).
My inclination would be to check back through this thread for some ideas, and if nothing solidly helpful emerged, and I couldn't find a really good recipe in my cook books, I'd PM one of the participants in this thread for sources/recipes.

If I come across anything that looks promising, I'll post it.

[thirtyoneknots]

I should point out that this is now veering in the direction of a head cheese if you're binding chopped meat with gelatinous stock. I love head cheese and all, but is that the effect you are shooting for?

Why not go more in the direction of a jambon perseille if you want to do a whole muscle preparation? Cure (if desired) and cook your pork, SV or otherwise, then glaze with an aspic and include the celery leaves there.

Or just do a normal terrine. It's not clear from your post whether you have made a terrine before, but in my own opinion the similarities to meatloaf are highly superficial, and mostly in the execution--not the flavor or texture

[Baron d'Apcher]

While sous-vide cookery has its merits (very few) using boil-in-a-bag for the purpose of making a terrine from the entire contents it contrived and a waste of plastic. Similar if not better results can be obtained by simmering the brined pork in seasoned water (salt, aromatics) until tender, clarifying the liquid with egg whites and then adding 8-10% gelatin by weight to the amount needed, as with the Randall-Lineback terrine up-thread. Excess clarified liquid can frozen and reused at a later time. Very difficult to check for tenderness with sous-vide and that method won’t generate enough liquid. And sous-vide simply has no soul. Jambon persillé should indeed be the guiding star.

Consider brining the pork, simmering, cool in the liquid, clarify, glue, dice meat and pack in a terrine with celery leaves. Alternatively, you can blend some blanched celery and/or leaves and purée them with the clarified liquid before adding the gelatin so as to create a pale green liquid evoking the celery leaves. Or you can pick/dice the meat while it is still warm and press it in a mold. It will stick together like a conglomerate, similar to boneless "Jambonneau" (pork shank, simmered, rubbed in lard and rolled in bread crumbs)

Gilles Verot. Paris, France



When making a chicken terrine, I blanch the poultry and simmer it in a white wine and tarragon court boullion with carrots and parsnips. The stock is clarified, “glued” with gelatin and encases the picked chicken meat, the aforementioned carrots & parsnips, gizzards, mustard seeds and celery leaves.

[thirtyoneknots]

While sous-vide cookery has its merits (very few) using boil-in-a-bag for the purpose of making a terrine from the entire contents it contrived and a waste of plastic. Similar if not better results can be obtained by simmering the brined pork in seasoned water (salt, aromatics) until tender, clarifying the liquid with egg whites and then adding 8-10% gelatin by weight to the amount needed, as with the Randall-Lineback terrine up-thread. Excess clarified liquid can frozen and reused at a later time. Very difficult to check for tenderness with sous-vide and that method won’t generate enough liquid. And sous-vide simply has no soul. Jambon persillé should indeed be the guiding star.

I'm interested to see you call for powdered/leaf gelatin rather than adding some shanks or something to the braising liquid (and then reducing). Is this an economy measure or do you think there's not enough difference in flavor or texture to justify the expense?

[Toufas]

While sous-vide cookery has its merits (very few) using boil-in-a-bag for the purpose of making a terrine from the entire contents it contrived and a waste of plastic. Similar if not better results can be obtained by simmering the brined pork in seasoned water (salt, aromatics) until tender, clarifying the liquid with egg whites and then adding 8-10% gelatin by weight to the amount needed, as with the Randall-Lineback terrine up-thread. Excess clarified liquid can frozen and reused at a later time. Very difficult to check for tenderness with sous-vide and that method won’t generate enough liquid. And sous-vide simply has no soul. Jambon persillé should indeed be the guiding star.

Consider brining the pork, simmering, cool in the liquid, clarify, glue, dice meat and pack in a terrine with celery leaves. Alternatively, you can blend some blanched celery and/or leaves and purée them with the clarified liquid before adding the gelatin so as to create a pale green liquid evoking the celery leaves. Or you can pick/dice the meat while it is still warm and press it in a mold. It will stick together like a conglomerate, similar to boneless "Jambonneau" (pork shank, simmered, rubbed in lard and rolled in bread crumbs)




When making a chicken terrine, I blanch the poultry and simmer it in a white wine and tarragon court boullion with carrots and parsnips. The stock is clarified, “glued” with gelatin and encases the picked chicken meat, the aforementioned carrots & parsnips, gizzards, mustard seeds and celery leaves.

Actually this is exactly what I am after. I checked your blog for recipes but I couldn't find any!
Also, which book should I get for terrines? Will charcuterie from ruhlman and rolycyn cover what I need?

[Raw/Cooked]

Also, which book should I get for terrines? Will charcuterie from ruhlman and rolycyn cover what I need?

Pâtés & Terrines by Ehlert et al. is a great (and beautiful) book though out of print. It's worth tracking down a used copy.

[Baron d'Apcher]

Clarifying a liquid that has enough gelatin to support a terrine is not recommended. It will probably burn at the bottom or make a mess and be very difficult to strain. Reducing a clarified liquid will only make it cloudy. While it is entirely possible to fabricate a stock entirely through natural gelatin (use a calf’s foot –generally available at any Latino market) it will not be clear or clean tasting. Gelatin has a relatively neutral taste.

Ruhlman’s book is a cursory introduction but in no way a resource that deserves the reverence it has somehow achieved. The brine percentages are far too high, gravlax recipe is likely sponsored by sugar lobbyists and the gram weights are rounded up/down. The book can best be used as a weight to press terrines and the pages run through the grinder to get the excess meat out.

Agreed with "pâtés & terrines". Jane Grigson does not offer precise measurements, but is worthwhile.

Edited by Baron d'Apcher, 09 May 2012 - 06:31 PM.

[avaserfi]

In my experience, a liquid that is properly clarified using agar agar will not cloud when reduced.

[thirtyoneknots]

Clarifying a liquid that has enough gelatin to support a terrine is not recommended. It will probably burn at the bottom or make a mess and be very difficult to strain. Reducing a clarified liquid will only make it cloudy. While it is entirely possible to fabricate a stock entirely through natural gelatin (use a calf’s foot –generally available at any Latino market) it will not be clear or clean tasting. Gelatin has a relatively neutral taste.

Ruhlman’s book is a cursory introduction but in no way a resource that deserves the reverence it has somehow achieved. The brine percentages are far too high, gravlax recipe is likely sponsored by sugar lobbyists and the gram weights are rounded up/down. The book can best be used as a weight to press terrines and the pages run through the grinder to get the excess meat out.

Agreed with "pâtés & terrines". Jane Grigson does not offer precise measurements, but is worthwhile.

Through careful skimming and straining I have had satisfactory results reducing clarified stock, though I admit it may not be up to your stunning aesthetic standard. We are in complete agreement about Ruhlman's charcuterie book being overly ballyhooed though. It's fine as a starting point but it gets too many points for slick production. And it doesn't cover anything like a jambon persille, to address the original question.

[Baron d'Apcher]

Pork and Randall-Lineback Pâté en Croûte: Special Brandy Drenched Golden Raisins and Green Peppercorn Edition.

On Grapeness.


Fruit of the Loom zoom.

[nibor]

I have been watching this thread for a long time. I am not much of a cook, but this is what I like to eat. So I bought the Time Life book "Terrines, Pates & Galantines", and "Pates and Terrines" by Lounque et al. They are incredible, like science fiction! I am starting out with chicken galantine. Here is a blurry photo of attempt #2. Stuffed with ham, tongue, pistachios, kale and mushrooms. I watched the Jacques Pepin video prior to deboning. Nonetheless it took me about 20 minutes. I cut myself, drew blood and made a sticky mess of my kitchen. The end result tasted pretty good though. I freeze slices and take them to work along with a salad. Now I need to figure out how to have a glass of red wine to go with, without getting in trouble.

Attached Images

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[Baron d'Apcher]

Jambonneaux.
Boneless, pressed, shank hams.

Shankscicle.


Shanks (jambonneaux) are brined, simmered, picked and packed into spring loaded cast-aluminum molds. There is a hole at the bottom of each cavity so that a whittled ulna or fibula bone can be inserted into the "ham" to mimic a larger bone-in ham. The pressed shank is then rubbed with lard and coated in toasted breadcrumbs. Eaten cold with condiments.

Press to impress.


Fab Four.

[FrogPrincesse]

This is gorgeous, Baron, and would make a great lunch with some crusty bread and coarse-grain mustard...

[Broken English]

This a pork head terrine I made a while back as a special. It's studded with pickles, and has a pearl barley, pickled ramp and cauliflower salad, pickling foam and sherry vinegar and grain mustard emulsion. I was pretty pleased with it to be honest.

[Baron d'Apcher]

Pied de Cochon Farci.
Stuffed trotter, or Zampone. Pork stuffing with brandy-soaked apricots, smoked belly, simmered shank, fatback and pistachios. Slow roasted with verjus and glazed with its juices.

Up yours, Manolo.


Garden footrest


The Right Stuff

[nibor]

What kind of spices went into that pig leg?

[boondocker]

A couple projects I did at work last winter but was too busy to share.

First was head cheese, since we had a hog waiting to be used



I made stock from the pork bones, then braised the head in that stock with a couple trotters. Pulled the meat and strained the stock. Seasoned the meat with parsley, celery heart, salt, pepper and sherry vinegar. I tried garnishing it with blanched turnip greens and asparagus. We served it with a bibb lettuce salad and an apple chutney I also felt it could have used heavier seasoning.. It didn't hold together well enough with the internal garnish either.











Next project was a lamb terrine since once again we just happend to have nice whole animals hanging out at the club.





Braised the neck and shanks with stock made from a couple previous lambs. We made the lamb stock differently though. Since lamb fat is so flavorful we rendered all the organ fat that came with them, then sweated the belly meat and mirpoix before adding water and tomato. took it slow for 24 hours to keep it crystal clear then removed the fat. Pulled the meat and used a heavier, but simpler seasoning. Salt, pepper, parsley, thyme and sherry vinegar. Served it with a bibb lettuce salad (we seem to have it around after member parties alot), curried pear chutney and a citrus vinagrette.

[boondocker]

Duck Pate, dried cranberries, sunflower seeds, smoked duck confee.

Nice and smooth, would be nice if I had foie laying around to add to the emulsion but had to do with just egg whites and cream.

[nickrey]

Just made up a country terrine with pork fillet insert and pistachio. Terrine lined with prosciutto.

Cooked sous vide.

Learnt that you shouldn't pull a large vacuum while trying to seal a terrine as the filling oozes out (thank heaven for stop buttons).

The rest of the forcemeat went into some rather delicious sausages.

[rotuts]

Im new to this thread. What a lot Ive been mmissing! and that 'press' above is to die for. i used to make terrines all the time. when cooler weather arrives im back in the game.

I have the pate + book mentioned above and also the Time-Life book The Good Cook Terrines, Pates, & Galantines

It might still be in your library. One forgets these days how good the several Time-Life cooking series books were and still are!

[FoodMan]

Just made up a country terrine with pork fillet insert and pistachio. Terrine lined with prosciutto.

Cooked sous vide.

Learnt that you shouldn't pull a large vacuum while trying to seal a terrine as the filling oozes out (thank heaven for stop buttons).

The rest of the forcemeat went into some rather delicious sausages.

This looks nice. How did you cook it SV? Did you vacuum pack the whole terrine pan after filling it with the forcemeat? At what temp and for how long?

[nickrey]

Just made up a country terrine with pork fillet insert and pistachio. Terrine lined with prosciutto.

Cooked sous vide.

Learnt that you shouldn't pull a large vacuum while trying to seal a terrine as the filling oozes out (thank heaven for stop buttons).

The rest of the forcemeat went into some rather delicious sausages.

This looks nice. How did you cook it SV? Did you vacuum pack the whole terrine pan after filling it with the forcemeat? At what temp and for how long?

The whole terrine including pan was sealed. When the chamber sealer caused a filling overflow, I sealed it with my Foodsaver.

Cooked it for 2 hours at 63C totally immersed. Then decreased water level to below the sides of the terrine and cooked still at 63C but more Bain Marie style and checked core temperature with my thermoworks thermometer. I finished cooking when core was 60C.

Edited by nickrey, 01 August 2012 - 05:07 PM.

[Baron d'Apcher]

Cooked it for 2 hours at 63C totally immersed. Then decreased water level to below the sides of the terrine and cooked still at 63C but more Bain Marie style and checked core temperature with my thermoworks thermometer. I finished cooking when core was 60C.

The pâté looks good, but sous vide, like explosives, profanity, cologne and truffle oil should be used sparingly and extremely judiciously, though those limits can be subjective. However, objectively, 60C/140F (medium doneness in the US, just above saignant for the French) is far too low of an internal temperature for a cooked pâté and keeping a forcemeat at that low of a temperature can be dangerous. Pâtés and virtually all cooked charcuterie needs to be cooked to an internal temperature of 70C-78C/158F-172F. If the pâté is soft and spreadable, it is because it is undercooked. 60C/140F is on the cusp of the temperature needed to kill harmful bacteria. A singular beef muscle cooked to 57C/135F is fine (the paranoid fantasies of the health department might dictate otherwise) because -with proper handling- there is virtually no chance of there being any bacteria inside. Forcemeats on the other hand and ground up, containing hundreds if not thousands of pieces of meat that are exposed to more surfaces, hands, air and whatever with infinitely more surface area. Initially, the European Union wasn’t too jazzed about transglutaminase because of the risks that come with gluing various pieces of meat together and cooking them at a temperature that does not kill bacteria. Now if the Europeans (ground zero for charcuterie, raw milk and unpasteurized cheese) have concerns that relate to food, then it is probably a big deal.

If you are going to eat the pâté in 1 sitting, no problem. However, if there are eggs in it and you are going to store it for a while or take it in and out of the bag over the course of a few days, you run the risk of the pâté falling apart, developing off flavors and at the very worst, making someone sick and that certainly isn’t worth shaving off 10 degrees, even during the Olympic games.

I cook hams sous-vide (it helps keep the shape in lieu of elusive molds & presses), spalla-cotto, bacon (to 140F for firmness to avoid having to freeze it for slicing) occasionally cotechino and leftover pâté forcemeat in casings (all in 72C water until and internal temp of 70-71C), but placing the entire pâté along with the terrine sous-vide strikes me as an excessive and unnecessary use of resources. I use the vacuum machine to pack the forcemeat but after that, terrines in a bain-marie in a 150C/300F oven uncovered, no convection for 2 hours until internal temp of 71C/160C works just fine, as it has for the past 2 centuries. Uncovered allows the top to caramelize a bit which adds sweetness and evaporation concentrates the flavors (more-so with the convection, though it has a tendency to break the caul-fat). Roasted prosciutto tastes better than boiled prosciutto. After cooking the expelled juices are tossed and a flavorful, hot broth is poured back over for the pâté to absorb. By cooking the pâtés at such a low temperature you also run the risk of the forcemeat breaking.

[Shalmanese]

However, objectively, 60C/140F (medium doneness in the US, just above saignant for the French) is far too low of an internal temperature for a cooked pâté and keeping a forcemeat at that low of a temperature can be dangerous. Pâtés and virtually all cooked charcuterie needs to be cooked to an internal temperature of 70C-78C/158F-172F. 60C/140F is on the cusp of the temperature needed to kill harmful bacteria. A singular beef muscle cooked to 57C/135F is fine (the paranoid fantasies of the health department might dictate otherwise) because -with proper handling- there is virtually no chance of there being any bacteria inside. Forcemeats on the other hand and ground up, containing hundreds if not thousands of pieces of meat that are exposed to more surfaces, hands, air and whatever with infinitely more surface area. Initially, the European Union wasn’t too jazzed about transglutaminase because of the risks that come with gluing various pieces of meat together and cooking them at a temperature that does not kill bacteria. Now if the Europeans (ground zero for charcuterie, raw milk and unpasteurized cheese) have concerns that relate to food, then it is probably a big deal.

This is objectively incorrect. Beef/Pork held to 60C for 30 minutes are pasteurized to a level deemed safe. Cooking Issues recommends cooking pork based forcemeats to 60C.

[nickrey]

Quelle horreur! Someone has used a different technique that that mandated by tradition.

Let me address each of your points in turn.

The cooking temperature I used was one recommended for pork and the cooking time was appropriate to pasteurise the meat, as commented already by Shalmanese.

The forcemeat surrounding the pork fillet in the middle was at 60C for over half an hour. I finished cooking when the centre of the pork fillet reached 60C, not when the forcemeat did so.

Cooking science has moved well beyond blasting everything to 70C-78C. I'm not unfamiliar with the rationale and literature in this area and am confident that with the process used the meat was pasteurised.

I can't see how putting the terrine in a temperature controlled water bath is an excessive and unnecessary use of resources. I bring the water to temperature before filling the cooking pot and the circulator only heats to maintain this temperature. My bet is I probably use around 1/10th of the electricity/gas energy that a conventional oven would use. The terrine tossed absolutely minimal juice, and this was dealt with conventionally by weighting and refrigerating the terrine.

The pâté is extremely well formed and cuts beautifully. If it were undercooked as you say, it would have the problems that you mentioned. It doesn't.

[rotuts]

I agree with Shal.. 130.1 for long enough (true temp) will pasteurization anything, based on thickness. I use 'beer coolers' with an insulated top and it uses almost no energy once temp is reached and I always do as many bags as I can and rapid chill and freeze. This saves time in the future and energy ( a little anyway )

Im curious why you did the bain m. part at all? what was your goal?

I do agree that texture would be a key for temp. selection for pate. Want a soft one? lower temp. Firm? higher temp. I also cant recall ever having a 'rare' meat pate, whole meat pieces or ground fine. Maybe this is an area that SV would excel in as in the past this was not possible to do safely.

I plan to do some of this soon and you've given me great ideas on how to do it SV. Ill start with cylinders, move on to small pans etc

Im thinking those small 'disposable' aluminum pans (reused of course!) will have a place here. Ill just line them with parchment paper.

many thanks for both your experiments and this thread!

Edited by rotuts, 02 August 2012 - 05:48 AM.

[nickrey]

As people who have read my posts would know, I don't use sous vide cooking as a matter of course. I used sous vide as I was reading a number of terrine recipes and all basically said to cook the terrine au bain marie to ensure that it cooked evenly. In essence, this is cooking in a water bath in the oven so I reasoned why not cook the whole thing in a full temperature controlled environment, ie. sous vide.

The bain marie part was forced on me as the Food Saver bag leaked. If this didn't happen, I would have continued sous vide and added a safety margin on in terms of time. As I had access to measure temperatures directly, I was able to work more tightly in terms of tolerances. To be on the safe side with sous vide, I'd probably cook for 3 1/2 hours at 63.5C to make sure that it was cooked through and pasteurised.

If you don't know what you are doing, I'd totally support Baron d'Apcher's caution and put a temperature safety margin on. Also, I wouldn't use the temperatures that I did if I were cooking commercially in the US as they don't fit in with FDA guidelines.