69 replies to this topic

[Jinmyo]

Very nice post, Mr. Tenacious P.

[stefanyb]

What an interesting thread. And what a bunch of nitpickers you guys are !

I think this topic falls into three categories.

1. People who are cheap.

2. People who do not know how to reciprocate

3. People who do not know, or are uncomfortable entertaining in their homes, or being hosts in a restaurant

1.I always say  "cheapness is pervasive".  It informs all of a person's behavior and relationships.  So, its not the dinner, its all parts of the friendship.  Thats the problem.  People who are cheap are cheap with their emotions as well as their money.  Therefore, its a much larger issue.

2. "people who do not know how to reciprocate".  I don't quite get this.

3.The entertaining part I totally get.  Hosts in a restaurant-  what does this take other than money?  If there isn't money, well that brings us back to entertaining which, I  agree can seem overwhelming and way too much effort for some people.  People like to feel competent at what they do as well as appreciated.  If you, Steve, entertain in the way you describe, I can see someone not wanting to reciprocate by entertaining you in their home.   You just do it too well.

What's needed is generosity on all levels by both parties, thats pervasive too.

[Jinmyo]

2. "people who do not know how to reciprocate".  I don't quite get this.

That's because you don't have to think about it to be motivated to do it. But many people do have to. And it just doesn't occur as something to be thought about to many others. Or if it does occur and is thought about it falls into strategies of gain and loss instead of joy.

[stefanyb]

Or if it does occur and is thought about it falls into strategies of gain and loss instead of joy.

Jinmyo, yes, joy, well put.  Somehow I think we're back to generosity, especially of spirit.  Like you.

[Rachel Perlow]

So how much does that wine cost?

come on, you were all thinking it!

[Steve Plotnicki]

""people who do not know how to reciprocate".  I don't quite get this"

Stefany-Reciprocating is not innate. You have to learn how to do it. For some people it's easy. My father would never show up anywhere without at least bringing a cake so I learned from that. But lots of other people have no compunction about showing up emptyhanded. It doesn't even occur to them to bring something, or send something afterwards.

"If you, Steve, entertain in the way you describe, I can see someone not wanting to reciprocate by entertaining you in their home.   You just do it too well.

But that's silly. We're happy if people grill up hot dogs and hamburgers. The issue with people entertaining isn't what they serve, it's the quality of what they serve. Hot dogs and hambugers can be great, but not when the chopped meat is from Pathmark.

Rachel-1990 Dominus is about $150 a bottle.

[tommy]

For some people it's easy. My father would never show up anywhere without at least bringing a cake so I learned from that.

as my father always told guests:  "ring the doorbell with your elbows".  this was a humorous, but effective way of getting some less-than-clued-in people to bring something when invited to our house.

actually, it was my friend's dad who said that.  but it sounds better if i say it was mine.  

[stefanyb]

We're happy if people grill up hot dogs and hamburgers. The issue with people entertaining isn't what they serve, it's the quality of what they serve. Hot dogs and hambugers can be great, but not when the chopped meat is from Pathmark.

Steve, (do you think all of the Plotnicks that I have known were originally Plotnicki?)

Anyway, here is another larger issue.  I'm telling you, there are innumerable people who feel deep in their souls that a hamburger made from supermarket chopped meat can make a hamburger every bit as good as ground Kobi beef that was flown in from Tokyo an hour ago (if there is such a thing).  I honestly think that in many cases they really cannot tell the difference.  I once had a conversation with my father-in-law about the fact that he felt no one could tell the difference in a blind taste test between butter and margarine!  

I run into this all the time in art.  I've had to respond to friends who think they can or their child can produce abstract paintings that are equal to those of the modern masters.  What can I say to them?  Of course, you are in a worse predicament if you have to eat the Pathmark hamburgers.  I can get away with just shaking my head and moving on.

Some people just don't have an appreciation for certain things.  In a particular subject area probably all of us are philistines.  We just don't understand, see, taste, smell, hear, etc. subtle differences in some areas.

How should we feel about this?  Its pretty tricky, me thinks. Should we pick our friends by how attuned they are to our passions? Food and dining and entertaining are all integral parts of friendship and relationships. Is Pathmark chopped meat an insult ?  I don't know.

All I know is that anyone invited to your place is pretty lucky.

[jaybee]

Very interesting new set of responses from SP and others on this subject.  I agree with Steve's three categories,  but would add a fourth--selfish.  There are people who are so self-involved that they don't think that an invitation to dinner or a weekend comes with an unspoken debt to reciprocate in some form, shape or manner, unless you don't care to see the other party again. There are takers and there are givers and takers.  A Yiddish word for this character trait is "schnorrer."  This is a person who takes all they can get from others with no thought of reciprocating.  There is a balance in relationships which helps keep them going.  When that balance is disturbed, the relationship can go "poof" as Steve says, unless you care enough to set it right.

[stefanyb]

For some people it's easy. My father would never show up anywhere without at least bringing a cake so I learned from that.

as my father always told guests:  "ring the doorbell with your elbows".  this was a humorous, but effective way of getting some less-than-clued-in people to bring something when invited to our house.

actually, it was my friend's dad who said that.  but it sounds better if i say it was mine.  

Your father said "Tsk, tsk, tsk, that Tommy.  What am I going to do with him?  He just wants to get by on his charm and good looks and sit in front of that computer all day and laugh to himself.  He was so much better off when he was watching Schoolhouse Rock!"

[Bux]

Typical of my experience is the example of my aformentioned group of 5 couples. We always spend a good ten minutes with the bill calculating each couple's actual total.

There's much to be said for splitting the bill with each paying for what he consumed. It's just not done in some circles. Do many people do it here in the NYC area? Does anyone do that in a very upscale restaurant. From my experience, there generally has to be some great inequity before most people will bother to adjust the bill, or am I dining with an odd group? I can't see a table spending ten minutes calculating each couple's actual total in Le Bernardin. How do you split the cost of a bottle of wine or is wine not ordered or drunk by any in the group?

[Steve Plotnicki]

"I'm telling you, there are innumerable people who feel deep in their souls that a hamburger made from supermarket chopped meat can make a hamburger every bit as good as ground Kobi beef"

Stefany-While this is true, what is also true is that people have come to my house for a BBQ and announced "this is the best hamburger I ever eaten." Two weeks later they call up to reciprocate and when you show up they serve you Puppy Chow. But it would be just as easy for them to say to us when inviting us that they enjoyed the burgers we served them at our house that they wanted to know where we got the meat from? You see, it isn't really all that difficult if you think about it.

I think most people don't know how to spend money on food (I am going to start a whole thread about this later.) I think they have preconcieved notions and habits that they just can't break. Many people would never in their right mind think of going into a place like Balducci's and plunking down the cash for top quality ingredients. Of course they like it when it is served to them in someone else's home or a restaurant, but they define eating at home a different way.

I think it's a leftover (good pun no?) from the way Americans organized their lives in the 50's and 60's which is when the great food consoldation happened in this country. Dining started with a weekly budget to be spent in a large grocery store. When purchases were pretty much confined to a single place, people got used to buying whatever it was they offered. As a result, quality dropped and items like margerine were able to make headway with a captive audience. Can you imagine margerine being a big item with an old fashioned dairy store? Of course not. It's a mass-market item. So your father's right. But that's because the food industry has confused the butter/margerine issue so badly, demonizing butter in the process, that people can't tell the difference.

"All I know is that anyone invited to your place is pretty lucky."

Play your cards right

Jaybee-I think selfish is just a variation on cheap. It just adds the component of self. Why someone's cheap doesn't really matter, Cheap is cheap.

[jaybee]

Jaybee-I think selfish is just a variation on cheap. It just adds the component of self. Why someone's cheap doesn't really matter, Cheap is cheap.

Not necessarily, Steve.  I've known cheap people who were otherwise very giving of their time and their energies.  They just had a thing about money.  And I've known selfish people who were willing to spend lavishly on themselves but were very withholding when it came to spending on others.  This had nothing to do with cheapness, more like stinginess of the spirit.
For some strange reason, most of the people we have retained as friends are neither cheap nor selfish.

[Steve Plotnicki]

Bux-I think, and I think that most will agree, that dining is a social occassion first and an expense second. The cost of going out to dinner isn't really the cost of the food, it's the cost of the experience. And when two couples split a bill equally, even though there was some disparity as to the cost of what they ordered, it's a statement that says they equally had a good time. On balance, that equity outweighs the inequity in the cost of food ordered.

In any event, people on tight budgets can navigate their way through this by announcing at the beginning of the meal that money is an issue, they are watching their budget and they would like the bill to be split according to what they order. I do not know anyone, including me, who would be put out by this or find it offensive in any way. Unless they really could afford it and they were just being cheapskates.  But to go through an entire meal, only to have this issue come up at the end appears as pettiness because as you point out, that isn't the social custom in NYC.

[Charlene Leonard]

Bux-I think, and I think that most will agree, that dining is a social occassion first and an expense second. The cost of going out to dinner isn't really the cost of the food, it's the cost of the experience. And when two couples split a bill equally, even though there was some disparity as to the cost of what they ordered, it's a statement that says they equally had a good time. On balance, that equity outweighs the inequity in the cost of food ordered.

In any event, people on tight budgets can navigate their way through this by announcing at the beginning of the meal that money is an issue, they are watching their budget and they would like the bill to be split according to what they order. I do not know anyone, including me, who would be put out by this or find it offensive in any way. Unless they really could afford it and they were just being cheapskates.  But to go through an entire meal, only to have this issue come up at the end appears as pettiness because as you point out, that isn't the social custom in NYC.

Steve - you have completely hit the nail on the head...

[tommy]

the consensus here seems to be that this is some sort of personality flaw.  i submit that some people just don't think in those terms.  their minds aren't aligned like ours when it comes to food and entertaining.  

i'm willing to bet that a vast majority of us hold the act of "breaking bread" in high regard.  i'm also willing to bet that a vast majority of the rest of the people on the planet don't look at sharing a meal with other people as such a sacred and wonderufl act.

with any luck, plotnicki will come around, restate the above in 2100 words or more, and we can call it a day.  

[stellabella]

From my experience, there generally has to be some great inequity before most people will bother to adjust the bill, or am I dining with an odd group? I can't see a table spending ten minutes calculating each couple's actual total in Le Bernardin.

bux, stefanyb, jaybee, i wanted to respond to all of you.  i posted about a very very very bad & ugly tipping experience a couple months ago.  bux, yes, there are some people who will disrupt a giddy tipsy jovial end-o'-meal conversation to whine, when the bill is presented [and this person is the only one who has bothered to go for it and carfully scrutinize it], "But I only had one glass of wine!!!"  

i think we all know one or two.  we can go on forever here about how, GOSH, no one could possibly be friends with a person like THAT!

oh, yeah?  you can pick your nose, but you can't always pick your friends.

[Robert Schonfeld]

We once invited a couple - with their small baby - to our house on Long Island for the weekend. As a gift, they brought the free Flintstones glass they had gotten at the gas statio when they stopped to fill up the tank on the way. This still ranks as the most egregious example of hudspeh we experienced as hosts.

[tommy]

We once invited a couple - with their small baby - to our house on Long Island for the weekend. As a gift, they brought the free Flintstones glass they had gotten at the gas statio when they stopped to fill up the tank on the way. This still ranks as the most egregious example of hudspeh we experienced as hosts.

that was meant to be a humorous gesture i'm guessing?

when we first started dating, i presented mrs. tommy with a can of SPAM one evening.  i couldn't find anything else btwn my apartment and hers.

it's the thought that counts.  :wow:

[jaybee]

when we first started dating, i presented mrs. tommy with a can of SPAM one evening.

Isn't SPAM uninvited male? (oops) I meant mail.

[Robert Schonfeld]

Humorous, sure, but in the case of these people, not without a certain unfunny intent.

[jaybee]

Humorous, sure, but in the case of these people, not without a certain unfunny intent.

So what did they bring when you invited them back a second time?  

[Robert Schonfeld]

So what did they bring when you invited them back a second time?  

Funny, I think we forgot to do that.

[yvonne johnson]

Steve Plotnicki,May 02 2002,07:10 Many people would never in their right mind think of going into a place like Balducci's and plunking down the cash for top quality ingredients. Of course they like it when it is served to them in someone else's home or a restaurant...

Steve P, surely you jest?  Are things expensive in Balducci's?  Yes.  But top quality?

[ckbklady]

Whoops, sorry, Bux - I'm a bit late in the thread to respond to your questions about the routine of bill-splitting. Yes, our group of ten splits the bill based on actual cost regardless of the calibre of the venue. We have done it at Bishop's (Vancouver, $$$$$) and at Sami's (Vancouver, $$) and even at hot dog stands in Stanley Park ($). We split wine with little trouble also - we divide all bottle prices by 5 for an approximate "per glass" price and then we each announce how many glasses we owe $ for.  Our concussed accountant sorts out the rest.

I have lived in and have friends in several large North American cities and have found this experience to be the same in all places. Dear me, Bux, do I belong to the Wrong Circles?    I hope I am not giving the impression that we are obsessed with equitable spending; in fact it is such a natural and agreeable thing to us all that it is as subtle as if everyone were to toss credit cards in a heap and leave the server to divide the total by their number. We enjoy each other's company without secretly grumbling that we are being charged for it.

[researchgal]

My husband and I, and most of our friends seemed to have been raised to (or exposed to, at some point) the concept of never showing up empty-handed to someone's home.  However, here's an interesting twist on this whole thing--whenever we're throwing a party or dinner and someone asks if they can bring anything, typically I say something like "oh no, just bring your lovely selves," or, if it's a pot-luck type of thing, then I might ask them to bring something, but typically not. Now, most of the time someone would still bring some sort of token item, flowers, wine or something, but, for some people it seems like no means no...to anything.  Am I weird to be a little ticked off by that?

[Steve Plotnicki]

"Dear me, Bux, do I belong to the Wrong Circles?  "

Ckbklady-Gee that's old school. Is it still the 50's out there?

In my best imtitation of Cabrales;

1. Has it ever occured to you for any reason that you should just split the bill equally?

2. If you split the bill equally, do you think the results would be much different?

3.Did anyone ever suggest to do it differently?

(And this one is a real Cabrales specialty, a multi-parter   )

4. And if someone suggested that you do it differently, and your portion came out to more that your meal actually cost, would you feel gypped? And conversely if it came out to less would you feel like you cheated anyone?

5. What if anything do you think this custom says about your relationship with the other people?

6. If you switched to splitting up the bill in equal proportions, would you feel differently about them? Would you feel closer, more distant?

7. And finally, after all these questions, aren't you sorry you admitted to this?

Yvvone-I didn't raise Balducci's to claim that things are top quality there. I only used them as an example as better than the A & P. But in the days I used to shop at Balducci's, things were pretty much top quality. Maybe not the very top, but pretty good. But those were the days when my office was on Astor Place, and Citarella and Eli's had not yet opened on the Upper East Side. I hear the quality at Balducci's has fallen since Sutton Place Gourmet took them over. But maybe while we're at it you can enlighten us as to where you think you can get top quality downtown. This way if you and Dr. Mr. Yvonne invite me for dinner, I won't show up with one of those gauche gifts from Balducci's.

[Margaret Pilgrim]

Jaybee, I have finally learned that in this life it often boils down to "You like someone because; you love them in spite of."   Friends usually fall into one or the other category.

[Bux]

In my best imtitation of Cabrales;

Why do I seem to recall that Cabrales' questions are generally a little bit less loaded in terms of value judgement.

Dear me, Bux, do I belong to the Wrong Circles?    

Seeing the big grin I should take the liberty of saying "yes."

But no, I'm willing to suggest that not only do customs vary from region to region, but that small groups may make their own etiquette which are not subject to criticism from outside. Well almost. I guaranty that if a table of five or six sat around for ten minutes deconstructing the check in any one of the four star restaurants in NYC, there'd probably be some very amused onlookers. Then again perhaps some people can divvy up a bill faster and with more finesse than others can split it down the middle on two credit cards. Whatever works for you is fine. The only problem is when members of two separate groups meet for dinner. I don't want to do the arithmetic, but if you've got an accountant who will do it for me, I'd be pleased as punch to pay for exactly what I had.

On the wine thing, since a good waiter will constantly be topping off glasses at the table, how easy is it to estimate how much each one has had?

Now that I've touched on that, the worst service anyone can offer me is to let my glass get empty after refusing to leave the bottle on the table. Sorry, just had to get that off my chest. Notes on the restaurant will appear soon on the France board, and no it wasn't Michel Bras.

[Bux]

I think most people don't know how to spend money on food (I am going to start a whole thread about this later.) I think they have preconcieved notions and habits that they just can't break. Many people would never in their right mind think of going into a place like Balducci's and plunking down the cash for top quality ingredients. Of course they like it when it is served to them in someone else's home or a restaurant, but they define eating at home a different way.

I think it's a leftover (good pun no?) from the way Americans organized their lives in the 50's and 60's...

There's a strong element of truth in that. Many people manage to compartmentalize their spending and their priorities, placing different weight on the dollar spent in the market and in a restaurant. In spite of all this talk about being cheap, I also suspect there are many who use a better butcher shop when company is coming over than during the week when it's just for the family. That's really a grand old tradition along with breaking out the good plates and dishes.

I'm sure I'm as guilty as the next person in these regards. I know I'll think much harder about whether I want the 13 dollar or the 14 dollar dish than I will about the difference between the 30 and 40 dollar ones.

Not particularly addressed to Steve, but do people feel differently about someone choosing dishes that have supplements as opposed to just ordering the more expensive dishes on an a la carte menu?