114 replies to this topic

[Smithy]

Has anyone tested side by side braising with pressure cooking?

Yesterday I was short on time but needed to braise some oxtail.  I recovered my pressure cooker from the basement and put it to work at a low steam for about 1 hour.  The results were much better than all my previous braising attempts including those where I tried to replicate the methods discussed in the Brasing Labs series. Nothing scientific here for sure, but maybe worth exploring.

I've switched almost exclusively to my pressure cooker when braising. The main difference I've found is that the cooking liquid doesn't evaporate at all in the pressure cooker, so I usually have to reduce my sauce more. Other than that, I really can't tell any difference.

I've never thought of braising in a pressure cooker. Not that I have a pressure cooker, but I might consider it if the benefits seemed worth the cost. What would you say is the time difference? Is there an advantage other than time savings?

[JAZ]

Depending on what you're cooking, a pressure cooker will cut 1/3 to 1/2 of the cooking time. I recently braised some "country ribs" (aka thick strips of pork shoulder) for chile verde; once the cooker came up to pressure, I cooked them for about an hour and had meat that practically shredded itself. About the same time for short ribs; 20 minutes for chicken thighs and the meat falls off the bone.

In addition to the time savings, pressure cooking means that you don't have to keep the oven on for several hours -- you have one burner on for half to a third of the time, which keeps the kitchen cooler.

[&roid]

I've read through all of the sections of this amazing labs session and I've just finished my first attempt at braising short ribs. one question I have is how best to store the meat/juice overnight. There are a couple of posts in the Q&A that mention the idea of separating the meat from the liquid overnight, problem is I can't find any more information on this. Is it really the best way? All I've ever read before (especially things like McGee) seem to suggest that cooling an storing meat IN the juice is the best idea as it somehow rehydrates the beef, is this wrong?

top marks to any quick responses as I'm going to have to go to bed soon!

[David A. Goldfarb]

I usually store the meat in the liquid, and the flavors seem to intensify. That's what I'd do with short ribs.

The only times I don't, I suppose, is if it's something like a pot roast that I want to be able to slice cold before reheating.

[Alcuin]

I've read through all of the sections of this amazing labs session and I've just finished my first attempt at braising short ribs.  one question I have is how best to store the meat/juice overnight.  There are a couple of posts in the Q&A that mention the idea of separating the meat from the liquid overnight, problem is I can't find any more information on this.  Is it really the best way?  All I've ever read before (especially things like McGee) seem to suggest that cooling an storing meat IN the juice is the best idea as it somehow rehydrates the beef, is this wrong?

top marks to any quick responses as I'm going to have to go to bed soon!

I don't see why you'd want to store the meat separately if you were going to use it with the sauce. Usually I braise, degrease, add the meat back in and refrigerate. You could also degrease the next day. Either way, I don't see why you'd store separately, but I may be missing something.

[&roid]

I don't see why you'd want to store the meat separately if you were going to use it with the sauce. Usually I braise, degrease, add the meat back in and refrigerate. You could also degrease the next day. Either way, I don't see why you'd store separately, but I may be missing something.

Exactly what I'd always thought but these two comments made me wonder:

Also, I noticed the overnight separation of meat and juices was dropped from the summary. I think that methoc really makes a difference in the texture and flavor.

Thanks for adding those points, Wolfert.  The separation of meat and juice during storage does seem to make a difference in texture and flavor.  Another practical benefit I've noticed is that it's much easier to get the congealed fat off the juice if there isn't meat cluttering up the container.

[Alcuin]

I don't see why you'd want to store the meat separately if you were going to use it with the sauce. Usually I braise, degrease, add the meat back in and refrigerate. You could also degrease the next day. Either way, I don't see why you'd store separately, but I may be missing something.

Exactly what I'd always thought but these two comments made me wonder:

Also, I noticed the overnight separation of meat and juices was dropped from the summary. I think that methoc really makes a difference in the texture and flavor.

Thanks for adding those points, Wolfert.  The separation of meat and juice during storage does seem to make a difference in texture and flavor.  Another practical benefit I've noticed is that it's much easier to get the congealed fat off the juice if there isn't meat cluttering up the container.

Huh. I went back and took a brief look at both of those comments but got nothing new out of it. Maybe there's more somewhere that would elucidate this, but I still don't understand why separating meat and juices would enhance texture or flavor. I get that it's easier to degrease a sheet of fat without having to scrape off the meat, but I don't get the flavor/texture part. It seems counter-intuitive to me. At the very least, the flavor/texture of meat stored either way should be the same. What's the liquid supposedly doing to the meat? Well, when colder weather rolls in, I'll have to do some experimenting.

[David A. Goldfarb]

By separating meat and the liquid, I think you would get a less intense flavor, but more solid texture, if you don't want the meat to fall apart, as for a roast that you want to be able to slice.

[&roid]

Huh. I went back and took a brief look at both of those comments but got nothing new out of it. Maybe there's more somewhere that would elucidate this, but I still don't understand why separating meat and juices would enhance texture or flavor. I get that it's easier to degrease a sheet of fat without having to scrape off the meat, but I don't get the flavor/texture part. It seems counter-intuitive to me. At the very least, the flavor/texture of meat stored either way should be the same. What's the liquid supposedly doing to the meat? Well, when colder weather rolls in, I'll have to do some experimenting.

Does seem a bit strange doesn't it, any way, I've decided that I'll do a little experiment. I've got some completely sealable containers so I've pulled the meat and put it in those, in one of them I've added back in a little of the cooking liquid but the rest I've left as they are (i.e. dry-ish). I'll see which seems best in the morning.

At least this way I've got a nice easy job of de-fatting the liquid tomorrow and can decide what to do with the second overnight storage before finally serving/eating this great looking food on saturday :)

Thankfully our weather forecast at the moment looks more like autumn/winter than summer

[Alcuin]

By separating meat and the liquid, I think you would get a less intense flavor, but more solid texture, if you don't want the meat to fall apart, as for a roast that you want to be able to slice.

For a roast or brisket you want to slice, I think it makes sense. But if you braise the meat just enough then let it cool, carryover cooking shouldn't hurt the texture though. It seems to me to be simply a matter of what feels right to the cook. I'd like to see some evidence that, all things being equal, storing meat and liquid separately has a better effect on flavor/texture.

[ambra]

Totally wierd question that probably belongs on the absurdly stupid questions thread, but since it directly relates to braising, I decided to post here....

In my area they sell a piece of meat called, "magro" Today, on a whim (30% percent off) I bought it. It's the single toughest piece of meat, I've ever eaten. tougher than any piece of meat pre-braise. I roasted it until 110 degrees too, thinking it was some kind of roast beef type cut.

There is not one ounce of fat on it, and honestly, I have absolutely no idea what part of the cow it came from.

My question is, what else could I do with it? Does a braise work on this kind of cut? There is literally NO fat. I mean not a single grain of white. In fact, it's kinda gross looking. I have to stop impulse buying sale items. the thing is, they have tons of it, all the time. There must be a way to cook it so that it is not tough. I can't imagine an entire town of people are eating tough meat. Not in Fiorentina (Tuscany) land anyway.

[Shalmanese]

Some googling suggests that it's top round which is largely worthless piece of meat. About the only thing edible you can do with it is cook it in a very slow (130F) oven for several hours and then slice it thin for roast beef. Brined & seasoned, it might be somewhat pleasant but I've generally found that cut more trouble than it's worth.

[Blether]

A lot of old recipes for beef braises call for adding chopped fat pork, ham or bacon. You have to think that that's at least partly aimed at this kind of cut. My other suggestion is, again combining with fat pork, to use it in sausage or meatballs.

[David A. Goldfarb]

Bresaola is one option, though I've usually used the eye of the round for that. The top round is sometimes used for corned beef, though I did it once, and I prefer brisket for that. You could also cut it in cubes and use it in a stew, which is what I would usually do with it.

[ambra]

Thank you everyone for your replies!

David, cooking it as stew would mean something similar to a braise which means it might soften if cooked a long time?
Bresaola would be awesome, but I've never cured my own meat. Although I was under the impression it was done with filet.

Blether, I bet that's what they do here, cook it in Fat. Either that or make carpaccio. Another biggie here.

I am actually leaning towards what Shalmanese said, "It just ain't worth the trouble." But since they are alllllways on sale here, I had to ask.

ETA: typos!

Edited by ambra, 09 February 2010 - 12:34 PM.

[David A. Goldfarb]

The eye of the round looks like the filet, but a bit larger and tougher of course, which probably isn't apparent when it's been dried, but I'm fairly sure the eye of the round is the usual cut, and that's what I've used. It's not that hard to do, as curing projects go, and doesn't require any special equipment.

A stew is like a braise, but since the pieces are smaller, they don't take so long to cook into something edible.

[Blether]

I think David's right about stew, but the same caveat goes: it needs fat from something.

I guess your last option is to make stock / consomme with it - for soup, or to enhance your more expensive cuts when you wet cook them, or in sauces.

[Teddy Devico]

for the perfect braise use sous vide technique fo perfectley cooked meat. Sous vide th emeat with flavorings you wish to impart in the meat.

[heidih]

for the perfect braise use sous vide technique fo perfectley cooked meat. Sous vide th emeat with flavorings you wish to impart in the meat.

Maybe I am old, but that grates against every cooking muscle and bone in my body. Sous vide is here to stay and is a wonderful technique, but I find it hard to believe that, by itself, it could yield the complexity of a well done braise.

[Chris Hennes]

I disagree with the notion that using SV can't "yield the complexity of a well done braise": SV is a great way of focusing flavors. But I don't see the point of using sous vide in this application: you're not trying to hit a small target temperature that gives you the perfect texture, you're trying to break down all of the connective tissues at a relatively high temperature. If you were looking for a "unique" result SV might make sense, as in dishes where you cook at relatively low temps for very long times, but that's a different product entirely—I don't think we want all of our braises like that.

[jk1002]

I disagree with the notion that using SV can't "yield the complexity of a well done braise": SV is a great way of focusing flavors

I'd like to see an example for that, where a SVed product has the complexity that I reach with a braise. To me the protein used in the braise just plays a side note in the assembled dish, it's the combination with the sauce. The sauce to me has flavor complexity coming from the slow cooking and what it does to the other ingredients thrown into the pot. If I open the SV bag I don't have that. Yes I can use the juices coming out of the bag but I haven't managed to elevate that to levels as what I get out of a braise.

Focusing flavors to me is the opposite of flavor complexity.

[Chris Hennes]

The key to SV flavor complexity is that (when that's what you're going for) you don't just put the protein alone in the bag. Is your thinking that if you took the exact same set of ingredients from your braise, put them in a bag, and cooked the whole lot SV (which it seems to me is what Teddy Devico was suggesting above), that the dish would be less complex tasting? Different tasting, and with a different texture, sure. But less complex?

That said, my main point was that a classic braise doesn't rely on the high-precision temperature control that is SV cooking's greatest strength, so I don't see the desirability of doing it the way that Teddy Devico suggests.

[jk1002]

I'd think if you do that it would be less complex. Reason is the different temperatures required among the ingredients. Not much happens with vegetables when you apply 56 celsius that you would probably use for the protein. Might be worth a try but then again I would think if it would do something it would have already been attempted. I haven't seen a single SV recipe or dish where you would combine ingredients in a way I do with braises in the same bag.

[Chris Hennes]

When you braise aren't you applying basically the same temperature to all the ingredients? I definitely think that trying to make a braise using sous vide is not a great idea, so I agree with you and Heidi on that front. I'm just arguing that the notion that sous vide isn't going to give you complex flavors is wrong. Many of the greatest chefs in the world use SV extensively in their cooking, and to my palate the results are plenty complex. But I bet they don't use SV to replicate a braise! Teddy Devico, I'd be interested to hear more about your experiences using SV techniques to create braised-like results. How exactly are you accomplishing it?

[jk1002]

When you braise aren't you applying basically the same temperature to all the ingredients?

Yes, but when I braise it is high enough to break down the vegetable and bring out sweetness, reduce fluids etc. All these reactions I can't see happening within the bag, not even if I would overcook the meat at a higher temperature.

The complexity of flavors in SV dishes may come from additional components prepared on the side. When you look at the Keller book, he adds "quick" sauces and all kind of other elements.