166 replies to this topic

[rancho_gordo]

I'm not sure if the problem was me or the machine. The first time I made the nixtamal, I cooked it for an hour. In the morning, I rinsed it and rubbed all the skins off and added the wet kernels to the machine. It made a dough but it was incredibly heavy and sticky and a little bit gritty. The tortillas never puffed up.

The next two or three times, I cooked the nixtamal to the point where I could easily rub of the skins, which was about 10 to 15 minutes, then left it to soak overnight. The masa was still a little gritty (which wasn't unpleasant, just not what I was used to) but the texture was ok. The tortillas still wouldn't puff.

The last time I did it was in our warehouse. We made the nixtamal on a hot plate and weren't paying close attention but somehow the masa was smooth and had that slightest hint of a sponge texture, which is exactly how I get it from the tortilleria. The torillas puffed! The differences were we left the masa to rest, I think. I also thing I started the grinding in smaller batches and added more corn as the thing became smooth. You can't do too big a batch. The grinding takes 15-20 minutes.

I hope to try it again but I won't have time until after next week (New Orleans for the IACP conference and hopefully at least coffee with you!) and I'll try and make a video.

[v. gautam]

I have not made masa dough in an Ultrapride, but with regard to dosa or idli batter, the instructions warn to add water, and only then to add the soaked rice or dal in small quantities, making sure the batter is stone ground in a liquid environment.

I had thought that maize, even nixtamalized, would be much tougher to gring than the rice and urad dal. More importantly, adding the amount of water I would think safe for the Ultrapride would produce too liquid a dough. whereas, in my mind, a metate ground dough would add much less water than required by the Ultrapride.
Now, while I have not used nixtamal with either an Ultrapride or a metate, I have used the Indian equivalents of the metate, both the flat stone and roller, and the carved schist mortar and its own particular pestle -like upright roller from childhood and have familiar with the dynamics of grains ground in them and doughs produced. The dough is much drier, as one can strictly control the amount of water added, and this depends on the degree of effort one wishes to expend as wel as the size, geometry and balance of the equipment being used.

So I remain a bit mystified by the Ultrapride being able to turn out a suitably dry masa dough [without burning out in a shorter time frame than it otherwise might!!], but will accept your verdict for now! Note that I am an enthusiastic promoter of Ultrapride [no commercial connection whatsoever] as many on eGullet may attest, but not of the other brands, for extremely good reason. So when my excitement is somewhat muted, it is not for lack of appreciation of that brand. BTW, they are selling a model with a 10 year guarantee in India which they are yet to bring out in the USA. So for people in the UK or elsewhere with 50 cycle, 220volt AC, please try to buy your machine from a UK dealer or get it from India. It will be half the USA dealer price.

P.S. Forgot to ask: what type of flint or dent corn is used to make your masa? That may have some bearing on the ability of the machine to process the nixtamal.

Edited by v. gautam, 11 April 2008 - 03:41 PM.

[caroline]

Thanks to both of you. Very informative and thought provoking.

I've made a note that it should be an Ultrapride I buy. It does seem that the texture of masa and other doughs is different from the batters of South India. All very puzzling.

I am dying to get my hands on an Indian grindstone but have not been able to find any in the United States. Any ideas?

Steve, I'm looking forward to seeing you on Thursday,

Rachel

[rancho_gordo]

The corn is still very moist and you do start w/ a 1/2 cup of water. By the time the corn is ground, the small amount of water is absorbed. The dough once it's really done, is pretty soft and doesn't seem to be a stress on the machine at all.
I promise to make a video once I get back.
I've used generic starch corn from the Mexican grocer and some nice heirloom corn we grew, originally from Jalisco, called La Montosa. I think I even tried the purple corn. the results were similar.

eta: this is my story of making masa, up until the point of the Ultrapride. Link.

Edited by rancho_gordo, 12 April 2008 - 04:29 PM.

[v. gautam]

Rancho_Gordo,

If you are happy with the Ultrapride, none could be happier than I!! I feel naturally defensive hoping that people don't feel cheated by an Indian machine that actually is extremely well-built for the purpose it was envisioned. It also performs excellently for things like Thi rice noodles.

I am glad that an experienced masa maker like yourself has given Ultrapride his imprimatur.

Rachel,

Regarding indian grinding stones, you need t be very circumspect. The ones on sale manufactured in Bangladesh, 12 inches wide by 18 inches long anf the bigger size are merely barely sufficient for very quick spice grinding. The quality is poor, the indentation is poorer. Note that after the stone is sliced into a block and smoothed, with a steel point and hammer a master mason engages in a rhytmic tapping and engraves a series of indentations in delightful patterns. The deppth of these have alot to do with the success of the grinding. as does the material andthe shape an weight of the roller, about which in a moment.

These indentations wera out with frequent use and need to be renewed. Not a problem where these crafts are common, but a headache where they are not. Another task for you to accomplish by yourself, safety goggles and all; not too many minutes required.

The roller needs to be of top quality, not quite cylindrical but polyhedral within the cylinder shape, if I can use the tem. The top and botton faces slightly flattened from the round, so that the "sides" of the cylinder are distinctly visible as a curvilinear edge. There has to be a balance between pure roll and drag/push fo maximum efficiency.

However, a slightly different style of the flat slab used in Bangalore is pictured in post 175 here:

http://www.gourmetin...topic=63&st=160


The curved metate is very different and more efficient with respect to masa, than te flat Indian grindstone. he hollow very large black granite or schist South Indian grindstone with the perfectly balanced mushala, or upright roller

one style pictured here : post 181: http://www.gourmetin...=180

The round deep style is favored fro grinding wet grain and legumes. Your palm cups the roller "head" to use an approximate term and uses its centered balance and weight to keep it spinning, allowing its weight to crush the grain against the side walls. You bend it ocassionally, think about your hand sitting on top of the head of a figure skater who is spinning, and you are able to bend her a bit so that the tip of her "spindle" does not quite leave the center, but the sides, the slightly planar edges tranfer angular momentum [don't take my physics as accurate!] in a way as to mash the grains against he side more.

You are widening the circle, pushing the roller HEAD through a larger CONIC section. There are two major types of roller design, based on the ellipse.

As you can see, each takes a lot of careful craftsmanship. PLUS, you need to ensure that they are NOT made of SOFT export quality granite but the HARD schist-type.

If you are in CA, around Sunnyvale, Bay Area, LA, anywhwere and everywhere in CA and Washington where expatriate Indians gather place an ad in Freecycle. many of the South Indian families have been foisted their treasured grinders by anxious mothers-in-law. Sitting and gathering dust, they may be persuaded to be sold or given away free. These would be the best quality.

These grinders, the particular Vegetarian diet they represent and brains go together, remember that. So wherever there are industries and professions requiring maximum brain power there you will these grinders on the West Coast, and correspondingly busy lives with less time to use them. There lies your opportunity.

[rancho_gordo]

I just want to stress I did not come up with the idea of using the Ultraprode for masa. The US distributor is advertising it as a machine for masa. I saw the ad in El Restaurante Mexicano, an industry magazine.
And while after 6 tries, I got a good batch, I would not recommend this machine to a casual user. It's $200 or so.
The last time I was in Mexico I saw an electric grinder and I think that may be worth pursuing.

[caroline]

Thanks Steve and Gautam,

This is all very interesting and I'm going to have to print it out and absorb it all. Just off the top of my head, there are some terrible grindstones being sold in Mexico now too. Just concrete painted black and terrible for the health. But more when I've mulled all this over.

Rachel

[rancho_gordo]

As a public service, I videotaped the making of the masa with my ultrapride.
The corn was boiled with just water and about 2 spoonfuls of cal for about 15 minutes and then left to sit overnight, rinsed and strained and then added to the machine as shown.
Link for video.

It was pretty good this time. The main thing is that despite what seems like a huge workbowl, you really can't make more than a cup at a time.

[Chris Hennes]

Thanks for the video: was that all in real-time or was there some time-lapse action going on there?

[rancho_gordo]

Thanks for the video: was that all in real-time or was there some time-lapse action going on there?

The total time was about 15-20 minutes. I imagine even three minutes of this video would be pretty boring if you had no interest!

The bird sounds were literally the sounds of spring in Napa, by the way!

[Chris Amirault]

Got an Ultra Pride and am getting ready for the first experiment. Here's the prep.

Rinsed and picked-over corn:



Following Kennedy's directions (which parallel Steve's above), here's the corn after a few minutes in the lime. Crappy photo, but you get a sense of that rich yellow color:



After about 15-20 minutes, the corn looked like this:



And the skin came off easily:



Soaking overnight for a grind tomorrow.

[Chris Amirault]

I spent a bit of yesterday grinding nixtamal and making torillas -- one of the most satisfying cooking experiences of my life.

After an overnight soak, I rinsed the nixtamal thoroughly:



In my first crack at using the UltraPride, I put whole pieces of corn into the central bin, but they were a bit too large to get the machine grinding away. So I did a bit of basic prep:





A little pre-UP prep did the trick:





I pulled the masa out a bit early, but it was still well ground and ready for making tortillas:



Well, honestly, more like gorditas:



I think that the more coarse grind makes for thicker, toothier breads -- hence the gordita comment -- but, man, these are amazing. With some tweaking, I can imagine making world-class tortillas. Already, these are so good I'm tossing the bag of Maseca out.

[Chris Hennes]

How long did you grind it for?

[Chris Amirault]

15-20 minutes?

[Chris Hennes]

And in total, how much "hands-on" time did the process require, about? I mean, I love the idea of making fresh masa, but I'm not looking for any more all-day projects at the moment!

[Chris Amirault]

I started with two pounds of sorted corn.

Prep for soak: 5 minutes; monitoring the simmer and overnight soak was negligible; draining and rinsing: a few minutes; prepping the nixtamal for the UP: ten minutes total, but I think that doing a first quick pass through, say, a KA mill would cut that by 80%; grinding: 45 minutes in two batches but largely unattended.

[snowangel]

Chris, I know this is about masa, but you make tortillas (so to speak). What mechanism did you use to press them out?

[Chris Amirault]

Standard issue Victoria tortilla press, using Diana Kennedy's brilliant split-ziplok method.

[jsmeeker]

How long does the fresh masa last? What do you with the leftover protion that doesn't get made into tortillas or whatever or into tamale dough right away?

[Chris Amirault]

I made the entire batch into tortillas the next day, after it sat in the fridge overnight wrapped in plastic. I've seen bags of fresh masa kept that way for many days, and I've also seen frozen masa for sale in AZ supermercados. Having said that, I have no idea about quality degradation. Kennedy recommends freezing the prepared tortillas after they cool, but doesn't say anything about the masa itself, I don't think.

[esperanza]

Chris, I'm a little confused by your gordita reference. The tortilla on the comal in your photo doesn't look anything like a gordita--to me, it looks just like a normal tortilla.

And I have a question: what are the dark yellow flecks in your masa and in that tortilla? The flecks look like pieces of very coarsely ground corn. I've never seen that kind of fleck in any tortillas in Mexico, or even in the USA.

The soaking time for nixtamaliz-ation seems very short. Maybe a longer soak would make grinding easier? You shouldn't have to use the molcajete, if that's what that is in the photo. Most folks use a metate y mano and forego the mechanized grinder, or use the grinder and forego the metate y mano.

[Chris Amirault]

Chris, I'm a little confused by your gordita reference. The tortilla on the comal in your photo doesn't look anything like a gordita--to me, it looks just like a normal tortilla.

They were too fat -- it was a jokey criticism of the too-coarse grind, and not a claim of authenticity.

And I have a question: what are the dark yellow flecks in your masa and in that tortilla? The flecks look like pieces of very coarsely ground corn. I've never seen that kind of fleck in any tortillas in Mexico, or even in the USA.

Again, see above: they were, indeed, flecks of very coarsely ground corn. I simply hadn't let the machine run long enough.

The soaking time for nixtamaliz-ation seems very short. Maybe a longer soak would make grinding easier? You shouldn't have to use the molcajete, if that's what that is in the photo. Most folks use a metate y mano and forego the mechanized grinder, or use the grinder and forego the metate y mano.

This machine was intended for smaller grains (rice, dal) and the larger corn pieces are a bit too big at the start, hence the mortar and pestle (not a molcajete).

[Chris Amirault]

Made another few pounds of masa today following the procedure above, broken into three batches. A couple tweaks:

Four or five quick pulses in the Cuisinart is enough to crack the corn slightly, enabling it to grind easily in the Ultra Pride.

I kept track of the amount of extra water I added throughout: a scant 8 oz for the entire 2 lbs of corn (weighed dried). I only added it when the UP started getting jumpy, with the machine making a low thudding noise instead of a smooth grinding sound.

[rancho_gordo]

Somewhere else here I think I responded about my Nixtamatic but I'm not sure. Here's a video of the Nixtamatic in action. It's loud but it works like a dream and it really grinds the nixtamal. I've used it a lot and I think I need to have the grinding plates sharpened, but otherwise this thing just goes and goes. I wouldn't recommend it to the casual user!

[Chris Amirault]

Crikey. That thing is potent. It looks like a machine I saw in the window of a store down in southern AZ, about $350. What'd it run you?

[Chris Hennes]

rancho, that's a hell of a toy: it's FAST! Chris, have you had any luck getting the tortillas thinner than your "gorditas" from last time? Do you know what's driving the thickness?

[Chris Amirault]

I ground the nixtamal to a finer consistency, so they were a bit thinner. However, that's not the delimiter in the system; rather, when I press them to a thinner, er, thickness within the ziplok bag, getting them onto the comal in one slim piece is a trick. I've been thinking about using aluminum foil on one side, so I can transfer the pressed dough directly onto the comal. If anyone knows a technique, I'm all ears.

[Chris Hennes]

Are they more fragile than those made with reconstituted masa harina?

[Chris Amirault]

Before cooking, when they're thin, yep.

[rancho_gordo]

The Nixtamatic was about $200 in Puebla, I believe and I think it was about $85 to ship. It also has a dry plate for grinding masses of mole ingredients, but I fear it will affect the flavor and use it exclusively for massa.